Mario Lemieux and 200 point season

iamjs

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Oct 1, 2008
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Mario Lemieux was almost the second player in the history of NHL with 200 point in one season. Almost. In season 1988/1989 he collected 199 points. And here is the question.

Isn't it possible, that he really had 200 points? The statistics were made by a human and as we know, nobody is perfect. There is a possibility, that someone forgot to write him second assists, or maybe some goal was written to another guy as Lemieux.

Where do people come up with stuff like this?

or perhaps there was a goal that crossed the line that wasn't counted. :sarcasm:

I stumbled across this while looking up some old broadcasts from the 80s and noticed there was a mention of a possible non-goal almost an hour into the video in the YT comments section. This is from a January 20, 1989 game vs the Winnipeg Jets, the same game where Mario officially went 50 in 46 games.

I know we are dealing with fuzzy late-80s KBL video being recorded onto an old VHS tape that was probably re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re....you get the idea, re-recorded, so there are "some" quality issues.

eRpFZjB.jpg


uWkFwaz.jpg




in real time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DL0fqKjmbRg#t=3287

or to fast forward to the replay in slower motion with a better angle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DL0fqKjmbRg#t=3449

I'm not saying it's a goal or it isn't a goal. Only 66, Pokey Reddick, and Dave Ellett might know if that puck went in. Even then we're talking about something that was at game speed that was replayed on a scoreboard overhead in low resolution. I'm just posting it as a "what-if" to the OP's question, although it does seem possible that it might have happened.
 

Big Phil

Registered User
Nov 2, 2003
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We could go crazy doing this. That goal might have gone in but there could also be an assist he was credited for that wasn't legit. It can go both ways. Let's just say Mario had 199 and it was one of the most incredible seasons ever and we wish it was 200.
 
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Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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That's a goal.
Figures Lemieux would get robbed of the legacy he deserved. :shakehead

:rolleyes:

Because I'm sure there were absolutely no instances of him getting a questionable 2nd assist at some point in the entire season, or factoring in on a single goal that might have been tipped by a high stick, kicked in, not fully crossed the line, time expired, etc. keeping in mind video review was not yet part of the equation. There's just as good a chance he really only had 198 points as there is he had 200.
 
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iamjs

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Oct 1, 2008
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We could go crazy doing this. That goal might have gone in but there could also be an assist he was credited for that wasn't legit. It can go both ways. Let's just say Mario had 199 and it was one of the most incredible seasons ever and we wish it was 200.

Oh I agree. I wish it was 200. To know he was that close and to have a screen shot of what is possibly a goal does stir the pot a little and makes you wonder if he did make it. I posted this elsewhere last night on FB but also prefaced it with "had everything else played out the way it did throughout the season, we might be looking at 200 points". Who knows, maybe he is credited with that goal and tweaks his back on the next faceoff and misses 6 games.

and yes, I'm sure he was given the benefit of the doubt on a few assists. ;)
 

alko

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Oct 20, 2004
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:rolleyes:

Because I'm sure there were absolutely no instances of him getting a questionable 2nd assist at some point in the entire season, or factoring in on a single goal that might have been tipped by a high stick, kicked in, not fully crossed the line, time expired, etc. keeping in mind video review was not yet part of the equation. There's just as good a chance he really only had 198 points as there is he had 200.

Lets write some online Petition to NHL. They should revised this moment.
 

LeBlondeDemon10

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Jul 10, 2010
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Lets write some online Petition to NHL. They should revised this moment.

Oh please let's not. Should 66 be granted that goal and a 200 point season, 5000 new threads will pop up on how he has now surpassed 99 as a the greatest player ever despite 99 having 4-5 200 point seasons in a "weaker" league with "weaker" goalies and "weaker" defensemen. This website would overheat and crash.
 
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iamjs

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Oct 1, 2008
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Lets write some online Petition to NHL. They should revised this moment.

it's fun to think that he might have actually had 200 points that season, but an online petition?

{Mod}
 
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alko

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Oh please let's not. Should 66 be granted that goal and a 200 point season, 5000 new threads will pop up on how he has now surpassed 99 as a the greatest player ever despite 99 having 4-5 200 point seasons in a "weaker" league with "weaker" goalies and "weaker" defensemen. This website would overheat and crash.

Thats it. :yo: Another spectacular media attention. Exactly what NHL need.
 

Iain Fyffe

Hockey fact-checker
Oh I agree. I wish it was 200. To know he was that close and to have a screen shot of what is possibly a goal does stir the pot a little and makes you wonder if he did make it.
It doesn't matter. 200 is a completely arbitrary line. Just because it has two zeroes on the end doesn't make it special. It's 0.5% more than 199; does 0.5% mark the difference between pretty good and best ever? Before Lemieux, only one player had scored at least 199 points. Only one player had scored at least 198 points. Only one player had scored at least 197 points. Only one player had scored at least 196 points. This goes on for quite a while. It doesn't suddenly become magical at 200.
 

iamjs

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Oct 1, 2008
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In that case, it's all arbitrary lines. Should we disregard 30 goal scorers or even 20 goal scorers? Why not disregard 15 goal scorers too?

Basically the 200 point number holds the credentials of a 100 point scorer, except the only person in the club is 99. We can do the "all 0 numbers mark is arbitrary" discussion all day, but to think round numbered discussions don't cause interest? I'll stop right there.
 

Iain Fyffe

Hockey fact-checker
In that case, it's all arbitrary lines. Should we disregard 30 goal scorers or even 20 goal scorers? Why not disregard 15 goal scorers too?

Basically the 200 point number holds the credentials of a 100 point scorer, except the only person in the club is 99. We can do the "all 0 numbers mark is arbitrary" discussion all day, but to think round numbered discussions don't cause interest? I'll stop right there.
That's not my point. Of course everything is arbitrary. But does anyone actually believe that if Lemieux had been awarded one additional assist and reached that particular arbitrary line, that his season would have been more than 0.5% more impressive?

We shouldn't disregard 30-goal scorers, but any argument that a 30-goal scorer is appreciably better than a 29-goal scorer because 30 has a zero on the end is untenable. It's the performance itself that matters, not whether the performance meets a particular arbitrary cutoff. 29 goals is 29 goals, it's not in the same category as 10 goals even though both are not 30 goals, if you follow me.
 

Pominville Knows

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Sep 28, 2012
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Was there not something like this in baseball or football something, numbers being corrected and becoming official? Maybe it was just some forgotten stuff from game summaries? The only problem i can see here is if that goal affected the outcome in the game in some principal way.
 
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Iain Fyffe

Hockey fact-checker
Was there not something like this in baseball or football something, numbers being corrected and becoming official? Maybe it was just some forgotten stuff from game summaries? The only problem i can see here is if that goal affected the outcome in the game in some principal way.
It wasn't that long ago that Rick Tocchet had two assists added to his record, many years after the fact. It was discovered that two assists from official game summaries were omitted from his record for whatever reason.
 

Pominville Knows

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Sep 28, 2012
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In that case, it's all arbitrary lines. Should we disregard 30 goal scorers or even 20 goal scorers? Why not disregard 15 goal scorers too?

Basically the 200 point number holds the credentials of a 100 point scorer, except the only person in the club is 99. We can do the "all 0 numbers mark is arbitrary" discussion all day, but to think round numbered discussions don't cause interest? I'll stop right there.

I think one could well talk about round numbers, but one still have to keep in mind that it does not tell the whole story obviously, and i'm not just talking about wrongfully disallowed goals or assists either.

As far as i'm concerned Lemieux is virtually a 200 point scorer, the only one except Gretzky.

It wasn't that long ago that Rick Tocchet had two assists added to his record, many years after the fact. It was discovered that two assists from official game summaries were omitted from his record for whatever reason.
I think i heard something about this a long time ago. In what season was he awarded extra assists?

Edit: Ah, a comparison between a hockey card of mine and Hockey-Reference tells me it was 1986-87.
 
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nasir

Registered User
Dec 4, 2018
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Mario Lemieux was almost the second player in the history of NHL with 200 point in one season. Almost. In season 1988/1989 he collected 199 points. And here is the question.

Isn't it possible, that he really had 200 points? The statistics were made by a human and as we know, nobody is perfect. There is a possibility, that someone forgot to write him second assists, or maybe some goal was written to another guy as Lemieux.

Clear goal not counted against Jets 88/89 season. Lemieux did in fact accumulate 200 points. If you watch the whole game, you will see how much he go clutched and grabbed. Embarrassing really. Being on Oiler gave Gretzky a 50 head start. It only became about equal in 93-94 when Pittsburgh was stacked. Gretzky's number went down immediately after being traded to Kings. And Kings were second best offense. If you reset everything and give both a playoff team only (not HOF team) Gretzky is good for 150-160 points in prime. Lemieux is good for 180-200 points. As mentioned earlier, Lemieux on pace for 225. 92-93 on pace for 204. 52 points in first 20 games with clutch and grab. Watched old footage for past 2 weeks. Lemieux is easily the most dominant player in NHL history. Gretzky close second.

 
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McGuillicuddy

Registered User
Sep 6, 2005
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Nice necropost :thumbu:.

Edit: I take that back after I actually read it...pretty terrible actually. Tired arguments that have long been rebuffed. Welcome to the board though :).
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,078
14,589
You can't count refused/uncounted goals lol

It's one thing to give an assist after the fact, maybe. has not outcome on game. A goal refused is not a goal, and that's it.

Quite frankly i don't get what the whole fuss is about. 199 or 200 what's the difference? Lemieux's mystique remains that we won't know what he could have done at his very best on a good team and healthy - in 1993 he might have but it got cut short (and high scoring season). I could care less about 199 vs 200 - i would have loved to see him go for 220+ in an optimal scenario.
 
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Big Phil

Registered User
Nov 2, 2003
31,703
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Interesting thing, Mario's 199th point of the season was in overtime on the final game of the season into an empty net. Does anyone have any idea why the Flyers pulled their goalie? All I can think of is that they were gunning for the win so that they could get into the 3rd spot in their division.

Mario had "only" one point in the previous game against the Rangers. Other than that a bunch of 3+ point games leading up to the end of the season.
 

Nathaniel

Registered User
Oct 18, 2013
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Yeah that’s a goal. It’s clear as day. Oh well. Lemieux scores a point in his first playoff game. So it took 77 games to score 200
 

Normand Lacombe

Registered User
Jan 30, 2008
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Interesting thing, Mario's 199th point of the season was in overtime on the final game of the season into an empty net. Does anyone have any idea why the Flyers pulled their goalie? All I can think of is that they were gunning for the win so that they could get into the 3rd spot in their division.

This is correct. The Flyers were trying to move up to 3rd place and avoid Washington in the 1st round. The Caps gave the Flyers problems during their games in that regular season.
 

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