Mario Lemieux and 200 point season

[alko]

Mario Lemieux was almost the second player in the history of NHL with 200 point in one season. Almost. In season 1988/1989 he collected 199 points. And here is the question.

Isn't it possible, that he really had 200 points? The statistics were made by a human and as we know, nobody is perfect. There is a possibility, that someone forgot to write him second assists, or maybe some goal was written to another guy as Lemieux.

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[revolverjgw]

Sure. It's also possible that he didn't get a stick on a deflection, or lost puck control during a messy play but got credited anyway, or somebody else got a stick on a shot but didn't get credit which could have eliminated a second assist somewhere, and maybe he really should have had 198 . Even going back and examining the tape of every goal would never be conclusive.

 

[sr edler]

Lemieux in 1992–93 were on pace for about 220 points, so of course he could have hit it in a season if he had stayed healthy. It's not even a question. Even in 1988–89 when he hit 199 he missed a couple of games. Phantom assists, aka "NHL assists", happen though more than the opposite I would guess. But sometimes it's hard to tell, even if you watch all the tapes from every game of the season in slow motion.

The big difference between Gretzky and Lemieux early on is team and teammates. Lemieux produced quite a lot even with crap teammates but when Paul Coffey came along in 1987–88 he rocketed from 141 →‎ 168 →‎ 199. At the same time Gretzky went 215 →‎ 183 → 168.

 

[maroon 6]

Sure. It's also possible that he didn't get a stick on a deflection, or lost puck control during a messy play but got credited anyway, or somebody else got a stick on a shot but didn't get credit which could have eliminated a second assist somewhere, and maybe he really should have had 198 . Even going back and examining the tape of every goal would never be conclusive.

This.

 

[Brewsky]

For every point you giveth, you might have to taketh away.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

He only played 76 games that year too, had he missed one less game he would've hit 200. After that his best shot was really 1992-93. 160 in 60 means he was on pace for 224. He would've definitely hit 200 at least. 40 points in 24 games was child's play for him that year. He was on track for two 200 point seasons, but it was not to be.

 

[Irato99]

The big difference between Gretzky and Lemieux early on is team and teammates. Lemieux produced quite a lot even with crap teammates but when Paul Coffey came along in 1987–88 he rocketed from 141 →‎ 168 →‎ 199. At the same time Gretzky went 215 →‎ 183 → 168.

But Gretzky produced a lot too with crap teammates, just look at his rookie season, I don't see the big difference.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

The big difference between Gretzky and Lemieux early on is team and teammates. Lemieux produced quite a lot even with crap teammates but when Paul Coffey came along in 1987–88 he rocketed from 141 →‎ 168 →‎ 199. At the same time Gretzky went 215 →‎ 183 → 168.

Gretzky's per game production was virtually identical in 86-87 and 87-88 (2.32 vs. 2.33). The reason his point total is lower was because he was injured.


Also, when talking about the early part of their NHL careers Gretzky really didn't have much teammate help. In 79-80 Gretzky ties Dionne for the lead in points, Messier only had 33pts and Kurri, Coffey, and Anderson aren't even on the team. The next season those guys are playing, but not anywhere near their primes...Kurri - 75pts, Messier - 63pts, Anderson - 53pts, Coffey - 32pts...Gretzky puts up 164pts...how much were they really helping him?

 

[Mayor Bee]

Sure. It's also possible that he didn't get a stick on a deflection, or lost puck control during a messy play but got credited anyway, or somebody else got a stick on a shot but didn't get credit which could have eliminated a second assist somewhere, and maybe he really should have had 198 . Even going back and examining the tape of every goal would never be conclusive.

I remember Alexei Yashin's agent claiming that the Senators promised to renegotiate his contract if he hit X number of points, which he fell two short of. The agent then went through all the tape from the year and claimed to have discovered that Yashin was shorted two assists, meaning that the Senators had to renegotiate the contract, and their refusal to do so justified his holdout.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I remember Alexei Yashin's agent claiming that the Senators promised to renegotiate his contract if he hit X number of points, which he fell two short of. The agent then went through all the tape from the year and claimed to have discovered that Yashin was shorted two assists, meaning that the Senators had to renegotiate the contract, and their refusal to do so justified his holdout.

This just makes me dislike him even more.

 

[Hobnobs]

This just makes me dislike him even more.

Young guy being promised loads of money... I hate the agent more.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

The big difference between Gretzky and Lemieux early on is team and teammates. Lemieux produced quite a lot even with crap teammates but when Paul Coffey came along in 1987–88 he rocketed from 141 →‎ 168 →‎ 199. At the same time Gretzky went 215 →‎ 183 → 168.

which kind of is the proof that gretzky > mario right?

 

[sr edler]

The agent then went through all the tape from the year

Quite ambitious.

 

[sr edler]

But Gretzky produced a lot too with crap teammates, just look at his rookie season, I don't see the big difference.

Yeah, I didn't mean Gretzky couldn't produce without good linemates, but his 200 point seasons went with Coffey and Lemieux's pro rated 200 point seasons did too. It was only an observation. I had Gretzky in front of Lemieux in the center list project thread, so this isn't about who was better of said two players. I still think Gretzky had a bit better team built around him early on though, not necessarily in his rookie season but early on. His team protected him better too. People weren't allowed to ride along on his back blueline to blueline.

 

[Irato99]

Yeah, I didn't mean Gretzky couldn't produce without good linemates, but his 200 point seasons went with Coffey and Lemieux's pro rated 200 point seasons did too. It was only an observation. I had Gretzky in front of Lemieux in the center list project thread, so this isn't about who was better of said two players. I still think Gretzky had a bit better team built around him early on though, not necessarily in his rookie season but early on. His team protected him better too. People weren't allowed to ride along on his back blueline to blueline.

Coffey wasn't with Pittsburgh anymore during the 92-93 season, he had been traded during the previous season.

Overall I think it's fair to say that both Gretzky and Lemieux started with bad teams but Edmonton got better a lot quicker.

 

[Mayor Bee]

This just makes me dislike him even more.

I thought him openly whining about his contract after his rookie year (1994) to the point of suggesting a trade was bad. Then he held out the next year (1995, which was, I think, the "shorted two assists" deal). Then there was the whole million-dollar donation in 1998, the holdout in 1999 that lasted all season...

Quite ambitious.

Well, if you can't trust Alexei Yashin's agent, who can you trust?

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Interesting thought. Gretzky had some phantom assists in his first season in the NHL. He ended up tied for the AR but lost on goals. Maybe Lemieux didn't even score 199 pts?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Interesting thought. Gretzky had some phantom assists in his first season in the NHL. He ended up tied for the AR but lost on goals. Maybe Lemieux didn't even score 199 pts?

I think it's more likely that superstars will receive a couple phantom assists than have them taken away, since superstars usually receive the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Big Phil]

1996 is the season where he is the next closest to 200 after 1989 and 1993. At least from a per game basis. He is on pace for 189 points that year. He had 161 in 70 games. I guess nothing is impossible with Lemieux, but he would have needed 39 points in 12 games and I think the most impressive string of his career was 56 points in 20 games after his cancer. So in a full season he is likely around the 185 mark.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

1996 is the season where he is the next closest to 200 after 1989 and 1993. At least from a per game basis. He is on pace for 189 points that year. He had 161 in 70 games. I guess nothing is impossible with Lemieux, but he would have needed 39 points in 12 games and I think the most impressive string of his career was 56 points in 20 games after his cancer. So in a full season he is likely around the 185 mark.

Keep in mind that in 1995-96, Lemieux was sitting out the second half of back-to-backs, so his points-per-game number is likely slightly inflated that season.

 

[Big Phil]

Keep in mind that in 1995-96, Lemieux was sitting out the second half of back-to-backs, so his points-per-game number is likely slightly inflated that season.

Right, he wouldn't have gotten close to it anyway

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Right, he wouldn't have gotten close to it anyway

That was one of the first seasons where they tried the obstruction crackdown. It lead to a huge amount of pp's which inflated everyone's numbers the first half of the season, but then the crackdown went out the window half way through the season. I remember Lemieux had 100 points in his first 38 games and everyone started talking about possibility of 200 points. He then had 61 in his next 32 when they stopped calling pp's.

 

[tazzy19]

Top 5 Oilers scorers from 1981-82:

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000411982.html


Player Name GP G A Pts

Wayne Gretzky 80 92 120 212
Glenn Anderson 80 38 67 105
Paul Coffey 80 29 60 89
Mark Messier 78 50 38 88
Jari Kurri 71 32 54 86

Gretzky more than doubled the 2nd leading scorer, and had more goals than anyone else had points (save Anderson). (He obviously had more assists than anyone else on his team had points as well, but that became normal for Gretzky.) The point is, he was not relying on his teammates to score 200 points in 81-82. In fact, besides Anderson, no one else even broke 90 points!

Gretzky also was injured for 6 games in 83-84. If he had played all 80 games, he would have been on track for 221 points. Before his injury after his 51 game points scoring streak, he was on track for 240 points in 80 games.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Yeah, I didn't mean Gretzky couldn't produce without good linemates, but his 200 point seasons went with Coffey and Lemieux's pro rated 200 point seasons did too. It was only an observation. I had Gretzky in front of Lemieux in the center list project thread, so this isn't about who was better of said two players. I still think Gretzky had a bit better team built around him early on though, not necessarily in his rookie season but early on. His team protected him better too. People weren't allowed to ride along on his back blueline to blueline.

You're forgetting the "Edmonton Rule".
Coffey missing a 1/4 of the season in 86/87 didn't help but the removal of 4 on 4 play hurt Gretzky's point totals a lot more than Coffey's absence.
Gretzky was also getting older. I know it sounds silly to say a 26/27 year old was getting old but the 87/88 season marked the beginning of his 10th professional season already.

Also, Lemieux's highest PpG season was actually 92/93 and Coffey was not in attendance.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Mario Lemieux was almost the second player in the history of NHL with 200 point in one season. Almost. In season 1988/1989 he collected 199 points. And here is the question.

Isn't it possible, that he really had 200 points? The statistics were made by a human and as we know, nobody is perfect. There is a possibility, that someone forgot to write him second assists, or maybe some goal was written to another guy as Lemieux.

short and long answer is no

Since about 1985 ALL goals were reviewed from inside the arena and that is why you often get changes on. I have been involved in pools for 30 years and I can tell you that even for many many years, all goals were reviewed to see who touched the puck