Marc Bergevin: Real Madrid ne font pas les séries ou va pas au Mondial Edition

What do you want to do with Bergevin?

  • Should be to be fired

  • Be patient

  • Keep him is doing a good job


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BlackStar

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Aug 12, 2010
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I don't think Subban was traded primarily because of Molson. I think most of us have it right when we say that he was traded because of Bergevin and Therrien. It's obvious that Subban's progressive playing style and culture rubbed Bergevin and Therrien the wrong way since before day 1.

However, Molson was too ignorant, idiotic, and a "yes" man to reject dumn and dumber's bufoonery. Molson is clearly one of those guys who relies on traditionalists to make up his mind on something. We're talking about the guy who went out of his way to bend over for the French media over French coaches.

Molson doesn't have a clue. He okayed the Subban trade not necessarily because he had a problem with Subban, he okayed it because the people he bends over for wanted Subban gone.
 

groovejuice

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Doubtful...

the issues with PK Subban and this organization go much further than Michel Therrien & Sylvain Lefebvre (there's no connection with the latter at all).

Only way PK Subban were still here, were if Molson stepped down as owner of this team and sold it to someone who didn't mind Subban's star shining just as bright as the Montreal Canadiens.

Furthermore - the fundamental issues with this team/organization go MUCH further than just the presence of PK Subban.

I don't understand this. Teams live and die with "shining stars". Crosby, McDavid, Matthews, et al. It's players like this that create interest and put butts in seats and $$$ in the coffers.

If a single player is more popular than a franchise, especially one who's won 24 Cups, then there's a very serious management issue, and an extremely poor internal philosophy.
 

417

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I don't understand this. Teams live and die with "shining stars". Crosby, McDavid, Matthews, et al. It's players like this that create interest and put butts in seats and $$$ in the coffers.
Neither do I.

If a single player is more popular than a franchise, especially one who's won 24 Cups, then there's a very serious management issue, and an extremely poor internal philosophy.
Exactly

And it's also not a question of "if" PK Subbanw as more popular than the franchise...he was/is.
 

Runner77

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It's nice to fantasize but the reality is that we'd have simply hired someone else who thinks along the exact same lines as Bergevin. We have had defense-first coaching and character-over-skill general managing of one degree or another for the past 25 years. The names have changed but the underlying philosophy has not.

I don't think they have much of a choice now. They can opt to continue bucking the trends but where will that leave them? Bergevin doesn't have a lot of time to try and turn it around. It's an offence-driven, speed and puck possession game now -- he either gets with the program or gets smoked again and for good.
 
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Laurentide

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I don't understand this. Teams live and die with "shining stars". Crosby, McDavid, Matthews, et al. It's players like this that create interest and put butts in seats and $$$ in the coffers.

If a single player is more popular than a franchise, especially one who's won 24 Cups, then there's a very serious management issue, and an extremely poor internal philosophy.
Crosby is more popular than the team he plays for just like Mario Lemieux was before him. Some teams are like that. The Habs, as an "establishment" franchise, have fans who worship the crest on the front of the jersey more than any single name on the back of it. They may have players who are fan favorites but these players are never bigger than the 100+ years of history and tradition symbolized by the sweater.

In other words, unlike the Penguins, who have only ever sold tickets in large numbers during the Lemieux and Crosby eras, teams like the Habs and Leafs have never "needed" stars to put bums into seats. People in Montreal and Toronto cheer for the laundry, not necessarily the men wearing the laundry.

Years ago, the Leafs had an opportunity to get their hands on Gretzky, who was being shopped around by the Kings, I believe. They bandied the subject around during an MLSE board meeting and decided against making an offer for the Great One because, as one board member put it "How many more tickets would he sell?" The implication of that statement is obvious: When you're already playing to a packed house every night why spend money you don't have to spend? The Habs screwed over Subban and tried to "put him in his place" because they could. They did it because they knew that despite whatever fallout might ensue, the fans would never stop coming and would never stop buying tickets.

The Habs don't care why you watch them; they only care that you watch them in the first place. The money from fans who boo the team is worth just as much as the money from fans who cheer. The money doesn't know where it comes from.
 

Runner77

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I don't understand this. Teams live and die with "shining stars". Crosby, McDavid, Matthews, et al. It's players like this that create interest and put butts in seats and $$$ in the coffers.

If a single player is more popular than a franchise, especially one who's won 24 Cups, then there's a very serious management issue, and an extremely poor internal philosophy.

Bergevin's ego got in the way. He's the only GM in the league who believes he should be the face of the franchise. Subban was stealing his thunder, so he had to go. :sarcasm:

It's water under the bridge now but Bergevin continuing for at least another year, is a recipe doomed to fail.
 
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Lebowski

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Dec 5, 2010
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Crosby is more popular than the team he plays for just like Mario Lemieux was before him. Some teams are like that. The Habs, as an "establishment" franchise, have fans who worship the crest on the front of the jersey more than any single name on the back of it. They may have players who are fan favorites but these players are never bigger than the 100+ years of history and tradition symbolized by the sweater.

In other words, unlike the Penguins, who have only ever sold tickets in large numbers during the Lemieux and Crosby eras, teams like the Habs and Leafs have never "needed" stars to put bums into seats. People in Montreal and Toronto cheer for the laundry, not necessarily the men wearing the laundry.

Years ago, the Leafs had an opportunity to get their hands on Gretzky, who was being shopped around by the Kings, I believe. They bandied the subject around during an MLSE board meeting and decided against making an offer for the Great One because, as one board member put it "How many more tickets would he sell?" The implication of that statement is obvious: When you're already playing to a packed house every night why spend money you don't have to spend? The Habs screwed over Subban and tried to "put him in his place" because they could. They did it because they knew that despite whatever fallout might ensue, the fans would never stop coming and would never stop buying tickets.

The Habs don't care why you watch them; they only care that you watch them in the first place. The money from fans who boo the team is worth just as much as the money from fans who cheer. The money doesn't know where it comes from.

I think you're mixing up different issues here though.

Bergevin's job is to build a winning team. I don't think ticket sales or marketing weigh anything at all in his decisions. That entire angle could be what tips the scale for a guy like Molson on whether or not he feels he should veto a deal, but that's not Bergevin's primary concern.

He said it himself again on TSN last week. He made the trade because he felt he was getting the better player in return, and he doubled down on it saying he still feels the same way today "and plenty of hockey guys around the league feel the same way".

Well, not David Poile, apparently.
 

groovejuice

Without deviation progress is not possible
Jun 27, 2011
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Crosby is more popular than the team he plays for just like Mario Lemieux was before him. Some teams are like that. The Habs, as an "establishment" franchise, have fans who worship the crest on the front of the jersey more than any single name on the back of it. They may have players who are fan favorites but these players are never bigger than the 100+ years of history and tradition symbolized by the sweater.

In other words, unlike the Penguins, who have only ever sold tickets in large numbers during the Lemieux and Crosby eras, teams like the Habs and Leafs have never "needed" stars to put bums into seats. People in Montreal and Toronto cheer for the laundry, not necessarily the men wearing the laundry.

Years ago, the Leafs had an opportunity to get their hands on Gretzky, who was being shopped around by the Kings, I believe. They bandied the subject around during an MLSE board meeting and decided against making an offer for the Great One because, as one board member put it "How many more tickets would he sell?" The implication of that statement is obvious: When you're already playing to a packed house every night why spend money you don't have to spend? The Habs screwed over Subban and tried to "put him in his place" because they could. They did it because they knew that despite whatever fallout might ensue, the fans would never stop coming and would never stop buying tickets.

The Habs don't care why you watch them; they only care that you watch them in the first place. The money from fans who boo the team is worth just as much as the money from fans who cheer. The money doesn't know where it comes from.

I think you're wrong about the popularity of the team. The guaranteed sellouts are done and we have no idea how other revenue streams are doing. There's a profit being made, no doubt, but this cynical attitude of "they'll come no matter what" is flawed and portends poorly going forward.

The money is coming in, but the Habs' reputation is further sullied every single day that Bergevin and his cronies remain in place.
 

Laurentide

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And they went out and traded him for the poster boy of what you just described
You know it, brother. They replaced Subban with someone crafted in their own image. When they look at Weber they see themselves (or at least an idealized version of themselves and what they would want to be like if they had any actual talent themselves)

If you were to show the current Habs front office a video of the 1972 World Series between the Cincinnati Reds and the Oakland A's, you know that they'd be rooting for the Big Red Machine even though history teaches us that the A's won. The A's players were flashy (Reggie Jackson, Catfish Hunter, Rollie Fingers) wore garish uniforms with white shoes and were paid bonuses by the team's owner Charlie Finley to grow their hair long and have porn moustaches and sideburns. They had a lot of big egos and personalities but they won 3 championships in a row.

The Reds were ultra-conservative. They made the players cut their hair short, did not allow any facial hair, mandated black shoes only, and did not even allow their players to hike up the stirrup socks they wore. They were "uniform" in their uniforms, the epitome of "establishment".

Now the Reds won a couple of World Series in a row right after Oakland but that's because they had talent to go along with their strict rules and, back then, teams like the A's were the exception, not the rule so players of that era had no expectations about being able to freely express themselves. Today only the Yankees get away with pulling crap like "Mattingly! I thought I told you to trim those sideburns!" but even then they only get away with it because they are usually an elite team on the field. If their record was similar to the Florida Marlins players would laugh in their face if management tried to get tough with them.

Habs management has an image in their heads about what they want their team to "look" like but they've made that more important than having talent. Even the Reds weren't that rigid or stupid. They may have enforced strict codes of conduct and deportment but they were still focused on winning games.
 

Laurentide

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I think you're wrong about the popularity of the team. The guaranteed sellouts are done and we have no idea how other revenue streams are doing. There's a profit being made, no doubt, but this cynical attitude of "they'll come no matter what" is flawed and portends poorly going forward.

The money is coming in, but the Habs' reputation is further sullied every single day that Bergevin and his cronies remain in place.
Even the empty seats are paid for. If they get filled it's because the ticket was sold at least once more and the Habs get a cut of that re-sale too. I'd like to think that fans in Montreal have not become sheep like in Toronto and would stop coming to games, but that generation of fan is fading away. The current generation has lower expectations than I did simply because they've never seen this team win. So for every older fan who says "I'm done" there are half a dozen younger fans with lower expectations and disposable income willing to take their seats.

Again, I hope I'm wrong because fan apathy/outrage with an accompanying loss of revenue for Molson is the only thing that's going to move the needle. But if he's not fired Bergevin after all this time and is prepared to put up with him for another year it tells me that his wallet has not been affected enough.
 

Runner77

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Even the empty seats are paid for. If they get filled it's because the ticket was sold at least once more and the Habs get a cut of that re-sale too. I'd like to think that fans in Montreal have not become sheep like in Toronto and would stop coming to games, but that generation of fan is fading away. The current generation has lower expectations than I did simply because they've never seen this team win. So for every older fan who says "I'm done" there are half a dozen younger fans with lower expectations and disposable income willing to take their seats.

Again, I hope I'm wrong because fan apathy/outrage with an accompanying loss of revenue for Molson is the only thing that's going to move the needle. But if he's not fired Bergevin after all this time and is prepared to put up with him for another year it tells me that his wallet has not been affected enough.

On the last count, there were over 6,000 fans on a waiting list for Habs' season tickets. We're far away from ever reaching the bottom of the barrel.
 
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Laurentide

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I think you're mixing up different issues here though.

Bergevin's job is to build a winning team. I don't think ticket sales or marketing weigh anything at all in his decisions. That entire angle could be what tips the scale for a guy like Molson on whether or not he feels he should veto a deal, but that's not Bergevin's primary concern.

He said it himself again on TSN last week. He made the trade because he felt he was getting the better player in return, and he doubled down on it saying he still feels the same way today "and plenty of hockey guys around the league feel the same way".

Well, not David Poile, apparently.
I agree with you. Bergevin couldn't care less about selling tickets. But then again, he doesn't have to worry about it because he's running the Habs, not the Coyotes or the Panthers. Unfortunately, I don't sense any urgency in this regard on Molson's part either. I'm sure that if he owned the Coyotes or Panthers he'd care a lot more about what his GM was doing to build a winner than he is right now. In those markets, winning is about all you can do if you want people to show up. In Montreal, they just show up. The only marketing you need to do is to tell fans when the next game is being played.

As for the trade, I'm sure that Bergevin does believe he got the better player and, in the short term, I would agree with that assessment (although that short-term is fast running out) But even if he does believe that Weber is better that isn't why he made the trade and we all know this. It was not a hockey deal, even though he got a great player in return. Quite frankly, I don't care if he got Crosby and Malkin in return for Subban. It's not the point. The point is that he traded Subban for non-hockey reasons.
 

groovejuice

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Even the empty seats are paid for. If they get filled it's because the ticket was sold at least once more and the Habs get a cut of that re-sale too. I'd like to think that fans in Montreal have not become sheep like in Toronto and would stop coming to games, but that generation of fan is fading away. The current generation has lower expectations than I did simply because they've never seen this team win. So for every older fan who says "I'm done" there are half a dozen younger fans with lower expectations and disposable income willing to take their seats.

Again, I hope I'm wrong because fan apathy/outrage with an accompanying loss of revenue for Molson is the only thing that's going to move the needle. But if he's not fired Bergevin after all this time and is prepared to put up with him for another year it tells me that his wallet has not been affected enough.

The acceptance by the fans of not only failure on the ice, but a condescending attitude from ownership promising an improved food experience, will be comparatively short lived IMO.

Molson has bungled his implied leadership and oversight roles by allowing the jokers in management to ply their hockey obscenities into the future. There is unlimited bleakness on the horizon.
 

Laurentide

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The acceptance by the fans of not only failure on the ice, but a condescending attitude from ownership promising an improved food experience, will be comparatively short lived IMO.

Molson has bungled his implied leadership and oversight roles by allowing the jokers in management to ply their hockey obscenities into the future. There is unlimited bleakness on the horizon.
I would like to believe that fan acceptance will be short-lived. But I grew up in Southern Ontario during the Ballard era and the appetite of Leafs fans to take whatever crap the team's ownership and management deigned to give them and pay top dollar prices to do it boggles my mind to this day. I never thought it could happen in Montreal but I wasn't counting on 25+ years of ineptitude from the Habs either. I find that over time and as the next generation of fans come of age, the willingness to accept things that fans of my age would never stand for is stunning. We have already lived long enough to see the accepted standard for this team go from winning Cups to "being competitive" and "challenging for a playoff spot", almost in the blink of an eye.
 

Runner77

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I would like to believe that fan acceptance will be short-lived. But I grew up in Southern Ontario during the Ballard era and the appetite of Leafs fans to take whatever crap the team's ownership and management deigned to give them and pay top dollar prices to do it boggles my mind to this day. I never thought it could happen in Montreal but I wasn't counting on 25+ years of ineptitude from the Habs either. I find that over time and as the next generation of fans come of age, the willingness to accept things that fans of my age would never stand for is stunning. We have already lived long enough to see the accepted standard for this team go from winning Cups to "being competitive" and "challenging for a playoff spot", almost in the blink of an eye.

There were enough scandals in the Ballard era to keep things interesting. Meantime, we're as inept as the Ballard Leafs but minus the juicy reality show that Ballard fueled all his own. The Habs have become so boring, their heart and soul players like Subban and Radulov are gone, the team has no star offensive player and no offence. And so much for challenging for a playoff spot, with the team only making the playoffs once in the last three years and the time they made it, they got bounced in the first round. It's going to be an interesting summer.
 

Runner77

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TLMEP show has been taped. Here's Bergevin wearing normal clothes (although the pants are always a surprise) with Guy A. Lepage in the foreground.

 
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groovejuice

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There were enough scandals in the Ballard era to keep things interesting. Meantime, we're as inept as the Ballard Leafs but minus the juicy reality show that Ballard fueled all his own. The Habs have become so boring, their heart and soul players like Subban and Radulov are gone, the team has no star offensive player and no offence. And so much for challenging for a playoff spot, with the team only making the playoffs once in the last three years and the time they made it, they got bounced in the first round. It's going to be an interesting summer.

Ballard was the Trump of hockey world in his era. The inanities, hostilities and cultural profanities of that beast are every bit as intolerable today as they were then.

One of his favourites was referring to the new influx of talented players from Sweden as "chicken Swedes", and displayed a perpetual antipathy to foreign players of any European origin.

An ironic and amusing story:

Ballard's opposition to European players was so virulent that a Leafs scout used Ballard's time in jail to sign Börje Salming, one of the NHL's first great European players.

Many more fascinating stories of Hockey's Trump here.

Wikipedia Harold Ballard
 
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TLMEP show has been taped. Here's Bergevin wearing normal clothes (although the pants are always a surprise) with Guy A. Lepage in the foreground.



Honestly, I can't wait to see how it goes. We're used to sterile PCs in Brossard or at Bell Center where reporters ask easy questions and even if they ask toughest questions, they're not really answered and stay unchallenged. Now he's in a building that has no affiliation to the team and questions will be asked by someone who isn't part of the beat and who isn't be afraid to lose his locker room pass and free hot dogs.
 
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THE HOFF

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Well its hilarious to see the habs going full PR right now. I understand that the team is at the golf course and that he might have more time on his hands, but its so funny to see molson throwing his GM in front the the cameras left and right to enhance ''transparency'' and pretend their mea culpa was serious business. He is literally putting his foot in his mouth every single time he's out there ... couldn't believe the OP you made my day!

too bad there is editing in TLMEP. He's clearly a great live performer.
 
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Runner77

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Honestly, I can't wait to see how it goes. We're used to sterile PCs in Brossard or at Bell Center where reporters ask easy questions and even if they ask toughest questions, they're not really answered and stay unchallenged. Now he's in a building that has no affiliation to the team and questions will be asked by someone who isn't part of the beat and who isn't be afraid to lose his locker room pass and free hot dogs.

He was on TLMEP in 2012: Émission du dimanche 6 mai 2012 | Tout le monde en parle | Radio-Canada.ca

Can't find a clip but they summarize his visit like this:

Montréal peut-elle à nouveau rêver de Coupe Stanley avec Marc Bergevin comme nouveau directeur général du Canadien? Cet ancien joueur de la LNH ne se trouvait pas assez bon pour jouer avec les Glorieux. Il a acquis son expérience en tenant à peu près tous les emplois possibles dans des équipes américaines. Il priorisera le recrutement de joueurs québécois et s'affaire dès maintenant à trouver un bon entraîneur.

Basically, he was busy at the time looking for a head coach and said he would prioritize drafting Quebec players.
 

ArtPeur

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He was on TLMEP in 2012: Émission du dimanche 6 mai 2012 | Tout le monde en parle | Radio-Canada.ca

Can't find a clip but they summarize his visit like this:

Montréal peut-elle à nouveau rêver de Coupe Stanley avec Marc Bergevin comme nouveau directeur général du Canadien? Cet ancien joueur de la LNH ne se trouvait pas assez bon pour jouer avec les Glorieux. Il a acquis son expérience en tenant à peu près tous les emplois possibles dans des équipes américaines. Il priorisera le recrutement de joueurs québécois et s'affaire dès maintenant à trouver un bon entraîneur.

Basically, he was busy at the time looking for a head coach and said he would prioritize drafting Quebec players.

How many Quebec players did he draft since then? :laugh:

Hudon, Bourque and Ghetto?
 
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