Marc Bergevin: Offseason Summertime Love Edition

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HabsWhiteKnightLOL

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First off, what the majority of fans wanted is to commit to a plan. Bergevin literally said last year that he wanted to vye for the playoffs while saying they were doing a reset. That's not a plan. A plan is what the Rangers did, they committed. Bergevin is unable to commit.

Secondly, no one ever put a specific timeline on the reset. Even Bergevin never said what it entailed. We've had to guestimate what reset is and how it compares to a rebuild. It was purposely left as an ambiguous notion. Even when Bergevin was pressed about it and what his plan was, he came back with a snarky answer about how only he and Geoff knew what the plan was and how other teams might be listening.

The Rags didn't care who was listening, they went ahead with a proper rebuild. The Rags and Habs both started at the same place two years ago. One had an overt plan, the other was playing coy. One followed through on their plan and ended up in a favorable position at the draft with the 2nd overall pick. The other is winging it, being reactive rather than proactive and espousing the absurd notion that he doesn't believe in windows.

Not everything the Rags did since they announced their rebuild, worked out. But they picked a direction and stuck to it. Bergevin is unable to commit to anything. Sure, he's amassed some prospects along the way but none of them are of Kaapo's caliber. Bergevin gutted the left side of his D a couple of summers ago, including making a senseless trade for Drouin and lunged for Alzner and Streit as replacements. He's carried forward an empty hole at first pairing LD which still exists going into a third off season. Please don't give me Mete as a first pairing D -- they rushed him and he can't score. He has no business there -- there is no first pairing D in the league that can't score.

Most fans did not want a reset, they wanted a rebuild. Secondly, they wanted Bergevin to be upfront about what he was going to do. And third, they wanted him to commit to what he was going to do. MB is the king of mixed messages. He's got veteran players who want to win now and want additions to get them over the top. Price has sent MB a clear message about how the time is now. Bergevin is responding by adding more picks and prospects, which is fine but it's not going to work with his franchise goalie unless he does what he's already done earlier in his tenure and hasn't worked -- which is unload futures for immediate help and set back his reset efforts.

If Bergevin is not going to make the playoffs and fails to make them 3 out of the last 4 years, and he's supposedly doing a reset, then he should not be ending up in no man's land with the worst lottery pick in the draft this summer. Of course it's pathetic every time this team doesn't make the playoffs, we've been spoiled historically but now it's been 25 years and we've entered Year 8 of MB's tenure and fans are rightfully holding the team to account.

Others have argued it and it bears repeating. Pick a direction and stick to it. That's the problem right there. MB wants to be everything to everyone and ultimately he will achieve mixed results that will please no one. MB's hands are tied by not being able to go for quick fixes via the UFA market so he needs to score with his amateur scouting and development and that, by definition, takes time.

Price's voice matters and he's used it in a public way. MB needs to respond. If he won't put the team in a position of contention, then he needs to trade Price and begin a new blueprint. He can't both try to please Price and do some kind of reset while vying for the playoffs.

MB's paralysis at the TDL was quite telling. While he didn't spend to add any impact player, neither did he sell off any assets to help the reset he was supposedly doing. He tried to patch up holes by adding Weal and Weise, again, sending a mixed message. He didn't want to completely let go at a chance at the playoffs but neither did he really want to go for it either. Bergevin wants his cake and eat it too -- it doesn't work but somehow, he seems convinced that you can get a different result by trying the same middle of the road lack of commitment to any particular strategy approach.

I don't know any setting where that has worked but why let facts get in the way of a guy who acts like someone whose job is somehow never on the line, no matter how ludicrous his decision-making may be.
What a great post
 
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teamfirst

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Oct 28, 2016
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you know, when you said that people still trash on MB (or whatever word you used), I did not feel personally attacked one bit... So I have no idea why you're taking this so personnal.


Personnal:laugh::laugh:

You quoted my post, i respond......just the normal thing to do

I'm really hard to offend so dont worry you can tell me almost anything you want, if i feel like responding ....i do, if not....i dont, there's nothing more to it, sure not taking it personnal, also i kind a like reading your posts you have a unique way of argumenting, very amusing way i must say ;)
 
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MistaWa16

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Sep 6, 2007
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Kevin Labanc just signed a 1 yr deal worth 1 mil with SJ. Am i missing something, because wow, 40pts and 56 pt seasons.Have to beleive this will hurt Lehkonen and Armia's case.
 

BLONG7

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Oct 30, 2002
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First off, what the majority of fans wanted is to commit to a plan. Bergevin literally said last year that he wanted to vye for the playoffs while saying they were doing a reset. That's not a plan. A plan is what the Rangers did, they committed. Bergevin is unable to commit.

Secondly, no one ever put a specific timeline on the reset. Even Bergevin never said what it entailed. We've had to guestimate what reset is and how it compares to a rebuild. It was purposely left as an ambiguous notion. Even when Bergevin was pressed about it and what his plan was, he came back with a snarky answer about how only he and Geoff knew what the plan was and how other teams might be listening.

The Rags didn't care who was listening, they went ahead with a proper rebuild. The Rags and Habs both started at the same place two years ago. One had an overt plan, the other was playing coy. One followed through on their plan and ended up in a favorable position at the draft with the 2nd overall pick. The other is winging it, being reactive rather than proactive and espousing the absurd notion that he doesn't believe in windows.

Not everything the Rags did since they announced their rebuild, worked out. But they picked a direction and stuck to it. Bergevin is unable to commit to anything. Sure, he's amassed some prospects along the way but none of them are of Kaapo's caliber. Bergevin gutted the left side of his D a couple of summers ago, including making a senseless trade for Drouin and lunged for Alzner and Streit as replacements. He's carried forward an empty hole at first pairing LD which still exists going into a third off season. Please don't give me Mete as a first pairing D -- they rushed him and he can't score. He has no business there -- there is no first pairing D in the league that can't score.

Most fans did not want a reset, they wanted a rebuild. Secondly, they wanted Bergevin to be upfront about what he was going to do. And third, they wanted him to commit to what he was going to do. MB is the king of mixed messages. He's got veteran players who want to win now and want additions to get them over the top. Price has sent MB a clear message about how the time is now. Bergevin is responding by adding more picks and prospects, which is fine but it's not going to work with his franchise goalie unless he does what he's already done earlier in his tenure and hasn't worked -- which is unload futures for immediate help and set back his reset efforts.

If Bergevin is not going to make the playoffs and fails to make them 3 out of the last 4 years, and he's supposedly doing a reset, then he should not be ending up in no man's land with the worst lottery pick in the draft this summer. Of course it's pathetic every time this team doesn't make the playoffs, we've been spoiled historically but now it's been 25 years and we've entered Year 8 of MB's tenure and fans are rightfully holding the team to account.

Others have argued it and it bears repeating. Pick a direction and stick to it. That's the problem right there. MB wants to be everything to everyone and ultimately he will achieve mixed results that will please no one. MB's hands are tied by not being able to go for quick fixes via the UFA market so he needs to score with his amateur scouting and development and that, by definition, takes time.

Price's voice matters and he's used it in a public way. MB needs to respond. If he won't put the team in a position of contention, then he needs to trade Price and begin a new blueprint. He can't both try to please Price and do some kind of reset while vying for the playoffs.

MB's paralysis at the TDL was quite telling. While he didn't spend to add any impact player, neither did he sell off any assets to help the reset he was supposedly doing. He tried to patch up holes by adding Weal and Weise, again, sending a mixed message. He didn't want to completely let go at a chance at the playoffs but neither did he really want to go for it either. Bergevin wants his cake and eat it too -- it doesn't work but somehow, he seems convinced that you can get a different result by trying the same middle of the road lack of commitment to any particular strategy approach.

I don't know any setting where that has worked but why let facts get in the way of a guy who acts like someone whose job is somehow never on the line, no matter how ludicrous his decision-making may be.
Great post..........now if you could forward this to Geoff Mol$on, that would be awesome!! Thanks!!
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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Hey if the sky is falling you will be right. Kotkaniemi will be a 40 point 3rd line for the rest of his career, Caufield won't score, Poehling will suck Romanov will stay in KHL, Weber will be injured, Domi will regress, Julien will play a stiffling defensive game, Bergevin will do nothing from now until season opener and then you can type as loud on your keyboard as possible to claim you told me so.
Told you so? But I didn't even tell you that..
There is a massive difference between probably rebuilding a team, which to me means a team strong enough to contend or at least be very close to it, and just have some good prospects..

Nothing you wrote has to do with what I said. Caufield just got drafted...he ain't gonna play in the NHL this year man. Romanov is still in the KHL for another season. How good those guys will be for us? Who knows...To claim that our rebuild is complete by saying ''we got it'' and then point to players that aren't even in the NHL is seriously weird.

As it stands today, we have a bubble team...if that's what you consider a rebuild, well then you and I have very different standards.
 

Kriss E

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I think if this team rebuilds (trades Price) it needs to be overseen by a new GM. Bergevin doesn't deserve to make that trade and continue to hold the reigns. But he must know this himself right? He has to be going towards competing now and must know his defense and scoring needs an infusion.

But didn't you say ''we got it (the rebuild)'' in a previous post?..
 

blarneylad

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Feb 1, 2009
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Told you so? But I didn't even tell you that..
There is a massive difference between probably rebuilding a team, which to me means a team strong enough to contend or at least be very close to it, and just have some good prospects..

Nothing you wrote has to do with what I said. Caufield just got drafted...he ain't gonna play in the NHL this year man. Romanov is still in the KHL for another season. How good those guys will be for us? Who knows...To claim that our rebuild is complete by saying ''we got it'' and then point to players that aren't even in the NHL is seriously weird.

As it stands today, we have a bubble team...if that's what you consider a rebuild, well then you and I have very different standards.
When did I say the habs were rebuilding? That is a bottom of the league long process. They did a reset on the fly.

You have a year older Kotkaniemi, and Poehling and Suzuki (acquired in a great reset trade) all ready to inject offense into the lineup.

This team is one good top 6 forward and a one left dman who can play with Weber and move the puck away from being up there with everyone in the East.

The leafs Have this year to go all in before their dmen Barrie and Muzzin need new deals, still don’t have Marner signed though I know that will be settled soon, Tampa has juggling to do, the sharks got worse, New Jersey will be interesting to watch with progression of Hischier and rookie Hughes, rangers with kakko and Panarin, Columbus took big step back, preds lost a good dman but added scoring, Winnipeg is sure to make a trade for salary cap.

The league is closest to parity I’ve seen.

Will Bergevin be able to add a top 6 player and a dman? Tall order for one offseason considering he couldn’t do the dman since losing Markov. But it is put up or shut up time for him and Price’s comments have to be indicative of that.

There are some good to great options out there. Does Bergevin settle for good and sign Ferland or trade for Kreider/Ehlers or go big and trade for a Laine?

Gardiner is still out there and an option. Leddy has been rumoured so has Ghost.

No way he does nothing.

Just signing Ferland and Gardiner makes this team better than last season. Enough to contend?

Still time until camp I’m sure something will shake. Otherwise you are correct. Bubble team and another year wasted of Price and Weber.
 

Kriss E

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When did I say the habs were rebuilding? That is a bottom of the league long process. They did a reset on the fly.
You did here:
What I don’t understand is everyone on here including myself wanted a rebuild/reset, we got it and it was faster than I expected but now everyone is belly aching that it wasn’t fast enough.
So you see, you said ''we got the rebuild/reset''....we didn't. The last thing people wanted was a rebuild on the fly. That is what we have been doing for years and years, and it's repeatedly failed.
Either lock Markov in, give Radu what he wants, trade picks and prospects to go all in.
Or do the opposite.
The last thing we wanted was a trade or two and then just roll with the punches.

You have a year older Kotkaniemi, and Poehling and Suzuki (acquired in a great reset trade) all ready to inject offense into the lineup.
Come on man...Suzuki is probably not even playing in the NHL next year..even if he is, you have no idea to what degree those guys would contribute. They are not Hughes type of prospect.

This team is one good top 6 forward and a one left dman who can play with Weber and move the puck away from being up there with everyone in the East.
This team has forever been just 1-2 players away.

The leafs Have this year to go all in before their dmen Barrie and Muzzin need new deals, still don’t have Marner signed though I know that will be settled soon, Tampa has juggling to do, the sharks got worse, New Jersey will be interesting to watch with progression of Hischier and rookie Hughes, rangers with kakko and Panarin, Columbus took big step back, preds lost a good dman but added scoring, Winnipeg is sure to make a trade for salary cap.

The league is closest to parity I’ve seen.
The only team ahead of us that got really weaker is CLB...and a bunch under improved and you can spin things for them just like you did with us...they all have interesting prospects that can inject offense.

Will Bergevin be able to add a top 6 player and a dman? Tall order for one offseason considering he couldn’t do the dman since losing Markov. But it is put up or shut up time for him and Price’s comments have to be indicative of that.

There are some good to great options out there. Does Bergevin settle for good and sign Ferland or trade for Kreider/Ehlers or go big and trade for a Laine?

Gardiner is still out there and an option. Leddy has been rumoured so has Ghost.

No way he does nothing.

Just signing Ferland and Gardiner makes this team better than last season. Enough to contend?

Still time until camp I’m sure something will shake. Otherwise you are correct. Bubble team and another year wasted of Price and Weber.

Ya..and if something happen we will comment on it then.
As it stands, this team is barely a bubble one and didn't go through the rebuild people wanted, so no, we didn't ''get it''.
 

Sorinth

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What plan is that?

Last year he said he wanted to make the playoffs while also saying he was resetting.

So far this off season, he’s been loading up heavily on bottom players.

That's the problem isn't it, he has no plan.
 
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Sorinth

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Look at the team globally, don’t Just tunnel vision yourself with the points.....I see now why you’d think this.

How is looking at where we finished league wide for all the years he's been GM not lookin globally? What data am I excluding here?
 
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NORiculous

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What if...

I was listening to the radio. They were talking about the Shaw trade and it got me thinking.

Let’s assume MB thinks Shaw has a shaky health and he wants to trade him. He calls up his pals in CHI and asks them for a favor...

MB : « Shaw is a good player but I need cap space ».
CHI : « cap space? Why? You have space already «
MB : « Yes but I need more »
CHI : « what for? »
MB : « ... »
MB : « Shaw is a good player! »
CHI : « is something wrong with Shaw? »
MB : « ok I will tell you mu plan. Shaw is fine. I need space so I can offersheet a pkayer »
CHI : « ah ok! Alright, I’ll take Shaw »
MB: « deal »

Later on...
Molson: « so Marc, were you able to get ride of Shaw? »
MB : « Yes... but... »
Molson: « but what? »
MB : « Now I have to offersheet someone »


So... what if the offersheet was used to convince CHI into taking Shaw?

Probably not... but there is the possibility!
 

Sorinth

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Jan 18, 2013
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He feels he can build through the draft and compete for the playoffs. Which is what they have been doing since day 1.

He might feel like he can do that, but the evidence shows he can't.

His building through the draft has been been an abject failure. We have 5-6 drafted players who look to be on the roster this upcoming season, and two of those were drafted before MB took over. We've never even acquired an extra 1st round draft pick. And we've traded away 2 of the 3 top-10 picks we did draft under Bergevin.

As for competing for the playoffs, we'll we've now missed the playoffs 3 times in the past 4 years. So again another abject failure made worse by the fact we were consistently in the playoffs before. The longer Bergevin has been in charge the worse he's done.


But full blown bottom of league doesn’t always work either. Look at Panthers, Buffalo, Edmonton as examples.

Bad year with a high pick to mix into the pre existing core ain’t bad either. Adding Kotkaniemi though not a part of the plan, was a positive of letting Radulov walk.

A huge part of me feels this philosophy is more or less Bergevins marching orders or parameters to his position. I think this actually stems from the top. Bergevin has made some blunders and the team seems to never move forward. So I would be more than fine with someone replacing him. But with that then we have to wait again, wait for the new GM to have a season to gauge what he has. Give him a chance to graduate his draft picks etc.

Heck that Drouin trade spells Molson. We can fire Bergevin, but it Gillette jr selling this team may have caused more issues than who wears the GM hat. I am reaching a bit maybe, but I put myself in Bergevins shoes and that is one of if not the hardest GM spot in the league. UFA don’t sign, your boss won’t let you tank for 3 years. Neither will the fans. At least the fans of other teams allowed it like the leafs. Habs suck and that arena starts going vacant in downtown Montreal.

I hope he isn’t done this offseason habs need upgrade to defence still and a trade would be the best route. Leddy would be my target.

I'd agree that Molson is a crap owner, however a big part of that is because he allows nepotism and incompetence to go flourish. So in many ways he's a bad owner because he hasn't fired Bergevin which is hardly a case for it being hard for Bergevin to do well.

As for UFA's not signing, that's 100% on Bergevin, other GMs were able to sign guys, Kovalev, Hamrlik, Cammalleri, Gionta, Cole were all considered some of the top-UFAs when we signed them. But the #1 reason a UFA signs with a team is because they think they have a chance to win the cup, so them not signing with us is directly related to Bergevin doing a crap job.

The fans not accepting a tank is a myth, the day they hired Bergevin most fans wanted us to tank for another few years. And again last year after drafting Kotkaniemi, most fans wanted us to tank another year.

And the reason the arena isn't at capacity when the team does poorly is because we insist on hiring coaches who are focused on defence to the exclusion of everything else. If we played an up tempo style where the young skilled guys were encouraged to use their skill they would wow the crowd and people would still come and watch the team. So again this is a GM problem not a Montreal problem.

Nobody knows if Molson would allow a tank, his words when Bergevin was hired suggested he was open to it, but words don't mean much so who knows what's said internally. But even so if you can't tank to get top picks you can do what the NYR and Bruins did and acquire a bunch of 1st round picks. Both of them added an extra 3 1st round picks in a two year period. They made 5 1st round picks in 2 years, whereas we've never had an additional 1st. Not too mention it should be easy to convince an owner that a winning team would generate far more revenue then a playoff bubble team.
 

Andy

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If we miss the playoffs again this year, does he finally get fired?
I doubt it.

They may not want to admit it publlically, but I'm sure internally they are all aware, including Molson, that the Habs are in a rebuilding phase. This allows the playoff misses to be tolerable.
 

MSLs absurd thighs

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If we miss the playoffs again this year, does he finally get fired?

I personally want us to crash right from the beginning of the year. I want us to get slaughtered every single one of the first 10 games. At this point, it's painfully clear Molson will only fire Bergevin if the situation gets critical. If we crash hard in the first few games next season after Bergevin doing much of nothing in the offseason, there will be pressure from both inside and outside to fire Bergevin.

Another year of "almost making it" will not get Bergevin fired.
 
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NotProkofievian

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I personally want us to crash right from the beginning of the year. I want us to get slaughtered every single one of the first 10 games. At this point, it's painfully clear Molson will only fire Bergevin if the situation gets critical. If we crash hard in the first few games next season after Bergevin doing much of nothing in the offseason, there will be pressure from both inside and outside to fire Bergevin.

Another year of "almost making it" will not get Bergevin fired.

It's fun to think about what kind of an utter clown show a season would have to be in order for Molson to actually fire Bergevin. I mean, after all the previous clown shows.
 
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MSLs absurd thighs

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Kevin Labanc just signed a 1 yr deal worth 1 mil with SJ. Am i missing something, because wow, 40pts and 56 pt seasons.Have to beleive this will hurt Lehkonen and Armia's case.

It does nothing for Armia and Lehkonen. Completely unrelated. Labanc clearly took a hit for his GM. And while everybody praise him for being a team player, he's incredibly stupid if you ask me. If he injures seriously this season he's never going to see that money.
 
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MSLs absurd thighs

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It's fun to think about what kind of an utter clown show a season would have to be in order for Molson to actually fire Bergevin. I mean, after all the previous clown shows.

I think there's hope if the situation actually gets bad enough that guys like Price, Weber and Gallagher go talk to Molson face-to-face and tell him they won't take more of this bullshit. If they threaten to leave or just say "do something to improve the situation or trade us", don't worry, Bergevin will leave. In the end, guys like Price and Weber bring more money to Molson than Bergevin.

That's why I hope we get slaughtered, and badly, in the first 10 games.

Yup. That's how bad this situation got.
 
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Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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I doubt it.

They may not want to admit it publlically, but I'm sure internally they are all aware, including Molson, that the Habs are in a rebuilding phase. This allows the playoff misses to be tolerable.

They might say it internally but if they miss again there will be a massive blowback and hopefully it falls on Bergey.
I have a difficult time believing he can dodge yet another bullet..
 
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