Marc Bergevin: Offseason Summertime Love Edition

Status
Not open for further replies.

cave troll

Registered User
Oct 9, 2013
1,678
851
Croatia
What I don’t understand is everyone on here including myself wanted a rebuild/reset, we got it and it was faster than I expected but now everyone is belly aching that it wasn’t fast enough. Look at the forums from two offseasons and everyone wanted a rebuild. Trade price, trade everyone. Draft draft we need a better prospect pool.

Fast forward two years and we added Kotkaniemi, Suzuki, Poehling, Romonav, and Caufield among others.

This team needs Kotkaniemi to breakout and lead the charge from center ice, and a boost to the power play and we are shoe ins for the playoffs.

And if he doesn't lead the charge and ends up being a bust?
Nobody happier than me if these prospects you mention will become top players, but I seriously doubt it. If one out of these four does it, we can all be happy.
 

DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
29,782
20,934
And if he doesn't lead the charge and ends up being a bust?
Nobody happier than me if these prospects you mention will become top players, but I seriously doubt it. If one out of these four does it, we can all be happy.

I think that a 25% success rate would be the expectation, rather than a surpassing of expectations.
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
You're right there are still a few more weeks but something else hit me. Our most productive center last season was Domi and he never really had a constant left winger. Right now, Domi doesn't have a left or right winger. So those are two more requirements that need to be added to my short list.
For me, a right handed scoring forward, preferably with some size, to play RW with Domi, is as much of a need for me as a LHD for Weber.

Shaw did pretty well there last year but the Habs needed an upgrade there either way.

BTW, If Poehling and Suzuki make the team I would try Domi as their center but I wouldn't expect Domi to get the same numbers as last year.
I think Suzuki is going to have more issues adjusting to the pro game...I wouldn't be surprised if he spends the entire year in the AHL, struggles a bit (and Habs fans all freak out calling him a bust).

Poehling I think will be good enough to make the team but will go down initially due to a numbers game.
 

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
What I don’t understand is everyone on here including myself wanted a rebuild/reset, we got it and it was faster than I expected but now everyone is belly aching that it wasn’t fast enough. Look at the forums from two offseasons and everyone wanted a rebuild. Trade price, trade everyone. Draft draft we need a better prospect pool.
We got it?? Say what now..?
We missed the POs last year and as it currently stands, I wouldn't bet on us making the POs this season either. So not sure what you're saying.
Also, people didn't want to draft just to draft more, they wanted the premium prospects. We need that high end talent you usually get from 1st or 2nd.

This team still has big holes and there is no guarantee our prospects are gonna fill those up so no, we didn't ''get'' our rebuild.
Let’s be thankful we got to watch for the first time since the Kovalev era some actual upbeat hockey and not the Defense north south garbage we had to witness under Martin and Therrien. And that something great is building. Literally for the first time in 20 years we have an exciting group of youngsters

This team is far closer to contending than anyone in here will admit.

Sorry man....that is setting the bar seriously low.
I should be thankful I got to watch my team play upbeat??...
We had a bunch of great kids too coming up with Price, Max, Gallagher, Galch, PK....but hey...what have you done for me lately.

There is nothing ''great'' building. You don't know that. As it stands we are a bubble team and no reason to believe we'll be better next season.
 

NotProkofievian

Registered User
Nov 29, 2011
24,476
24,599
Hey hey hey, come on Bergy, let's focus! Offre hostile!

200.gif
 

Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
Jan 5, 2003
89,202
36,190
Dont know why guy's like you keep using the word defending, messages board is a place where you can give your opinion......that's all i'm doing, just like you

And it's fine. Defending somebody is an opinnion. But let's call it the way it should be called. Yep, you are totally in your right to do so.....but it is what it is.
 

blarneylad

Registered User
Feb 1, 2009
8,203
4,517
We got it?? Say what now..?
We missed the POs last year and as it currently stands, I wouldn't bet on us making the POs this season either. So not sure what you're saying.
Also, people didn't want to draft just to draft more, they wanted the premium prospects. We need that high end talent you usually get from 1st or 2nd.

This team still has big holes and there is no guarantee our prospects are gonna fill those up so no, we didn't ''get'' our rebuild.


Sorry man....that is setting the bar seriously low.
I should be thankful I got to watch my team play upbeat??...
We had a bunch of great kids too coming up with Price, Max, Gallagher, Galch, PK....but hey...what have you done for me lately.

There is nothing ''great'' building. You don't know that. As it stands we are a bubble team and no reason to believe we'll be better next season.
Hey if the sky is falling you will be right. Kotkaniemi will be a 40 point 3rd line for the rest of his career, Caufield won't score, Poehling will suck Romanov will stay in KHL, Weber will be injured, Domi will regress, Julien will play a stiffling defensive game, Bergevin will do nothing from now until season opener and then you can type as loud on your keyboard as possible to claim you told me so.
 

teamfirst

Registered User
Oct 28, 2016
3,433
2,039
And it's fine. Defending somebody is an opinnion. But let's call it the way it should be called. Yep, you are totally in your right to do so.....but it is what it is.


There is simply no point of bringing the word ''defending'' when it's not what i'm doing, just have a different opinion then you that's all, couldnt care less if MB gets fired as long as the next GM do a better job and then i would still be able to appreciate what I THINK are the good things he as done
 
  • Like
Reactions: 417

ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
28,604
5,423
There is simply no point of bringing the word ''defending'' when it's not what i'm doing, just have a different opinion then you that's all, couldnt care less if MB gets fired as long as the next GM do a better job and then i would still be able to appreciate what I THINK are the good things he as done
you know, when you said that people still trash on MB (or whatever word you used), I did not feel personally attacked one bit... So I have no idea why you're taking this so personnal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pickles

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
And it's fine. Defending somebody is an opinnion. But let's call it the way it should be called. Yep, you are totally in your right to do so.....but it is what it is.
I don't think stating facts, as that poster did, is defending anyone...

He presented what place the Habs finished under Bergevin.

Those are facts. That's not a defense.

I don't know...I think this constant need to pit imaginary factions against each other by certain posters is what kills any attempt at having healthy debates here.
 

ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
28,604
5,423
I don't think stating facts, as that poster did, is defending anyone...

He presented what place the Habs finished under Bergevin.

Those are facts. That's not a defense.

I don't know...I think this constant need to pit imaginary factions against each other by certain posters is what kills any attempt at having healthy debates here.
that's it ?????
 

Runner77

**********************************************
Sponsor
Jun 24, 2012
83,292
148,954
What I don’t understand is everyone on here including myself wanted a rebuild/reset, we got it and it was faster than I expected but now everyone is belly aching that it wasn’t fast enough. Look at the forums from two offseasons and everyone wanted a rebuild. Trade price, trade everyone. Draft draft we need a better prospect pool.

Fast forward two years and we added Kotkaniemi, Suzuki, Poehling, Romonav, and Caufield among others.

This team needs Kotkaniemi to breakout and lead the charge from center ice, and a boost to the power play and we are shoe ins for the playoffs.

This offseason isn’t over yet so I expect another move of significance to address the power play and depth. A top player to push guys down the lineup. If Bergevin sits on this current group as is right now the only progress we will see is in individual players growing. Ie, Kotkaniemi

But circling back to my first point, I can’t understand the moaning in these boards about our standings. We clearly went into a reset and all knew that would take more than 2 years. It’s what everyone was clamouring for, the reset is ahead of schedule but now y’all are moaning it’s pathetic for this legendary franchise to not make the playoffs. The blind hatred of Bergevin on here is pathetic.

First off, what the majority of fans wanted is to commit to a plan. Bergevin literally said last year that he wanted to vye for the playoffs while saying they were doing a reset. That's not a plan. A plan is what the Rangers did, they committed. Bergevin is unable to commit.

Secondly, no one ever put a specific timeline on the reset. Even Bergevin never said what it entailed. We've had to guestimate what reset is and how it compares to a rebuild. It was purposely left as an ambiguous notion. Even when Bergevin was pressed about it and what his plan was, he came back with a snarky answer about how only he and Geoff knew what the plan was and how other teams might be listening.

The Rags didn't care who was listening, they went ahead with a proper rebuild. The Rags and Habs both started at the same place two years ago. One had an overt plan, the other was playing coy. One followed through on their plan and ended up in a favorable position at the draft with the 2nd overall pick. The other is winging it, being reactive rather than proactive and espousing the absurd notion that he doesn't believe in windows.

Not everything the Rags did since they announced their rebuild, worked out. But they picked a direction and stuck to it. Bergevin is unable to commit to anything. Sure, he's amassed some prospects along the way but none of them are of Kaapo's caliber. Bergevin gutted the left side of his D a couple of summers ago, including making a senseless trade for Drouin and lunged for Alzner and Streit as replacements. He's carried forward an empty hole at first pairing LD which still exists going into a third off season. Please don't give me Mete as a first pairing D -- they rushed him and he can't score. He has no business there -- there is no first pairing D in the league that can't score.

Most fans did not want a reset, they wanted a rebuild. Secondly, they wanted Bergevin to be upfront about what he was going to do. And third, they wanted him to commit to what he was going to do. MB is the king of mixed messages. He's got veteran players who want to win now and want additions to get them over the top. Price has sent MB a clear message about how the time is now. Bergevin is responding by adding more picks and prospects, which is fine but it's not going to work with his franchise goalie unless he does what he's already done earlier in his tenure and hasn't worked -- which is unload futures for immediate help and set back his reset efforts.

If Bergevin is not going to make the playoffs and fails to make them 3 out of the last 4 years, and he's supposedly doing a reset, then he should not be ending up in no man's land with the worst lottery pick in the draft this summer. Of course it's pathetic every time this team doesn't make the playoffs, we've been spoiled historically but now it's been 25 years and we've entered Year 8 of MB's tenure and fans are rightfully holding the team to account.

Others have argued it and it bears repeating. Pick a direction and stick to it. That's the problem right there. MB wants to be everything to everyone and ultimately he will achieve mixed results that will please no one. MB's hands are tied by not being able to go for quick fixes via the UFA market so he needs to score with his amateur scouting and development and that, by definition, takes time.

Price's voice matters and he's used it in a public way. MB needs to respond. If he won't put the team in a position of contention, then he needs to trade Price and begin a new blueprint. He can't both try to please Price and do some kind of reset while vying for the playoffs.

MB's paralysis at the TDL was quite telling. While he didn't spend to add any impact player, neither did he sell off any assets to help the reset he was supposedly doing. He tried to patch up holes by adding Weal and Weise, again, sending a mixed message. He didn't want to completely let go at a chance at the playoffs but neither did he really want to go for it either. Bergevin wants his cake and eat it too -- it doesn't work but somehow, he seems convinced that you can get a different result by trying the same middle of the road lack of commitment to any particular strategy approach.

I don't know any setting where that has worked but why let facts get in the way of a guy who acts like someone whose job is somehow never on the line, no matter how ludicrous his decision-making may be.
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
that's it ?????
He presented the facts as is then stated that the aggregate of those stats placed the Habs 11th overall under Bergevin (i'm not even sure if that's accurate or not - i'll give him benefit of the doubt) and that his conclusion was that he disagreed with those that state he's the worst GM ever.

I'm not sure how that's a defense of Bergevin.

I mean, just because someone not participating in the same old repeated purple pants or Bargainbin jokes that have been recycled over and over again, doesn't mean they support him blindly.

Honestly, on this forum, there's probably only ONE poster who I think really defends Bergevin and I don't need to name him.

MB's approval rating on this board is at less then 5% if we're being honest - so why people try to act like there's this huge swell of support for him is beyond me.

Completely fabricated and unnecessary.
 

Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
Jan 5, 2003
89,202
36,190
I don't think stating facts, as that poster did, is defending anyone...

He presented what place the Habs finished under Bergevin.

Those are facts. That's not a defense.

I don't know...I think this constant need to pit imaginary factions against each other by certain posters is what kills any attempt at having healthy debates here.

Well don't take my word. Take Bergie and the players word. You know the infamous let's get in the playoffs and then you'll never know that I hate so much? Well facts are also that it's 1 playoffs in the last 4 years. It's 3 rounds won since 2012. Aren't those facts? And isn't the playoffs THE most important season of them all? Those are facts too. AS far as healthy vs unhealthy, it's all about name calling. But disagreeing...is still good debate.

It is a defense 'cause it is actually trying to make Bergie look good....using a totally unimportant stat. Just like people who are continuous bashers will say that Bergie in his good moves was only lucky. That's not good either. He got Domi for Galchy. Thought that Domi would be a winger. True. A fact. But it worked out perfect. A fact. Bergie made the trade. A fact. Good job on the trade. A fact.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DAChampion and 417

blarneylad

Registered User
Feb 1, 2009
8,203
4,517
First off, what the majority of fans wanted is to commit to a plan. Bergevin literally said last year that he wanted to vye for the playoffs while saying they were doing a reset. That's not a plan. A plan is what the Rangers did, they committed. Bergevin is unable to commit.

Secondly, no one ever put a specific timeline on the reset. Even Bergevin never said what it entailed. We've had to guestimate what reset is and how it compares to a rebuild. It was purposely left as an ambiguous notion. Even when Bergevin was pressed about it and what his plan was, he came back with a snarky answer about how only he and Geoff knew what the plan was and how other teams might be listening.

The Rags didn't care who was listening, they went ahead with a proper rebuild. The Rags and Habs both started at the same place two years ago. One had an overt plan, the other was playing coy. One followed through on their plan and ended up in a favorable position at the draft with the 2nd overall pick. The other is winging it, being reactive rather than proactive and espousing the absurd notion that he doesn't believe in windows.

Not everything the Rags did since they announced their rebuild, worked out. But they picked a direction and stuck to it. Bergevin is unable to commit to anything. Sure, he's amassed some prospects along the way but none of them are of Kaapo's caliber. Bergevin gutted the left side of his D a couple of summers ago, including making a senseless trade for Drouin and lunged for Alzner and Streit as replacements. He's carried forward an empty hole at first pairing LD which still exists going into a third off season. Please don't give me Mete as a first pairing D -- they rushed him and he can't score. He has no business there -- there is no first pairing D in the league that can't score.

Most fans did not want a reset, they wanted a rebuild. Secondly, they wanted Bergevin to be upfront about what he was going to do. And third, they wanted him to commit to what he was going to do. MB is the king of mixed messages. He's got veteran players who want to win now and want additions to get them over the top. Price has sent MB a clear message about how the time is now. Bergevin is responding by adding more picks and prospects, which is fine but it's not going to work with his franchise goalie unless he does what he's already done earlier in his tenure and hasn't worked -- which is unload futures for immediate help and set back his reset efforts.

If Bergevin is not going to make the playoffs and fails to make them 3 out of the last 4 years, and he's supposedly doing a reset, then he should not be ending up in no man's land with the worst lottery pick in the draft this summer. Of course it's pathetic every time this team doesn't make the playoffs, we've been spoiled historically but now it's been 25 years and we've entered Year 8 of MB's tenure and fans are rightfully holding the team to account.

Others have argued it and it bears repeating. Pick a direction and stick to it. That's the problem right there. MB wants to be everything to everyone and ultimately he will achieve mixed results that will please no one. MB's hands are tied by not being able to go for quick fixes via the UFA market so he needs to score with his amateur scouting and development and that, by definition, takes time.

Price's voice matters and he's used it in a public way. MB needs to respond. If he won't put the team in a position of contention, then he needs to trade Price and begin a new blueprint. He can't both try to please Price and do some kind of reset while vying for the playoffs.

MB's paralysis at the TDL was quite telling. While he didn't spend to add any impact player, neither did he sell off any assets to help the reset he was supposedly doing. He tried to patch up holes by adding Weal and Weise, again, sending a mixed message. He didn't want to completely let go at a chance at the playoffs but neither did he really want to go for it either. Bergevin wants his cake and eat it too -- it doesn't work but somehow, he seems convinced that you can get a different result by trying the same middle of the road lack of commitment to any particular strategy approach.

I don't know any setting where that has worked but why let facts get in the way of a guy who acts like someone whose job is somehow never on the line, no matter how ludicrous his decision-making may be.
There is no doubt that there were/are fans in the blow it up rebuild camp. I actually understand that camp completely though disagree with it. I myself wanted a 2 year lottery top tier talent infusion. Last year was a bit of a derail as the team competed quite admirably. Ending up with Caufield was luck at 15th so happy there.

Mete certainly isn't a top pair dman, nor is Chiarot. So still have a hole there but I'm hoping Bergevin commits to the "reset" and acknowledges its time to give the pieces to Price's prime. Trade for that LD and acquire a high end top 6 forward. Laine/Connor/Ehlers could be available though the asking price may be steep for the first two.

Over half of Bergevin's first half of his tenure has been a disaster, but I like his moves of late. He added some depth veteran and grinders for a potential playoff. Seemed to me he knew he was more than one big trade deadline acquisition away from competing so he added a card or two to the deck to let the team play and experience the playoff should they get there.

If all he does this offseason is minor side moves like Cousins, Shaw, et al we've seen thus far my goodness what a catastrophic failure. That would be beyond being stuck between a reset and transitioning into competing (as the Rangers have done).

I think if this team rebuilds (trades Price) it needs to be overseen by a new GM. Bergevin doesn't deserve to make that trade and continue to hold the reigns. But he must know this himself right? He has to be going towards competing now and must know his defense and scoring needs an infusion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DAChampion

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
Well don't take my word. Take Bergie and the players word. You know the infamous let's get in the playoffs and then you'll never know that I hate so much? Well facts are also that it's 1 playoffs in the last 4 years. It's 3 rounds won since 2012. Aren't those facts? And isn't the playoffs THE most important season of them all?
I didn't say I agreed with his conclusion, first off...I didn't verify if those finishes were accurate, nor do I feel that's a comprehensive way to analyze the job he's done.

I just didn't feel like what he posted was a "defence" of Bergevin...like the dude isn't on trial here lol.

Those are facts too. AS far as healthy vs unhealthy, it's all about name calling. But disagreeing...is still good debate.
Name calling or splitting Habs fans into imaginary factions, for me, is the same thing. It all goes downhill from there.

We're ALL Habs fans...this isn't Democrats vs Republicans.

It is a defense 'cause it is actually trying to make Bergie look good....using a totally unimportant stat. Just like people who are continuous bashers will say that Bergie in his good moves was only lucky. That's not good either. He got Domi for Galchy. Thought that Domi would be a winger. True. A fact. But it worked out perfect. A fact. Bergie made the trade. A fact. Good job on the trade. A fact.
I guess it depends on how you interpreted that post...I don't think it made him look good. But maybe that's just me.
 

Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
Jan 5, 2003
89,202
36,190
There is simply no point of bringing the word ''defending'' when it's not what i'm doing, just have a different opinion then you that's all, couldnt care less if MB gets fired as long as the next GM do a better job and then i would still be able to appreciate what I THINK are the good things he as done

It's hockey. Perfect goal is to win the Cup. Very good goals are to win as many rounds as possible. Habs goal is to make the playoffs. If, at your work, you miss your goals, you won't be appreciated. No perfect goal, but let say it's fine. As many rounds as possible? 3 wins since 2012. Making the playoffs? Missing it 3 out of the last 4 years. I have NO IDEA how finishing 4th in the conference in the regular season is close to anything I've just said.

For me, it's pure defense. But it's your opinion and your goal to defend him. And again, that's fine. I just don't see any relation with his stats in the regular season to determine how great he is. I could say he is amongst the worst because of lack of results in the playoffs. Where it counts the most.
 

Whitesnake

If you rebuild, they will come.
Jan 5, 2003
89,202
36,190
I didn't say I agreed with his conclusion, first off...I didn't verify if those finishes were accurate, nor do I feel that's a comprehensive way to analyze the job he's done.

I just didn't feel like what he posted was a "defence" of Bergevin...like the dude isn't on trial here lol.

Well for 3 to 4 years now, you've been around enough to see that 2 camps emerged, the bashers and the defenders. With no room for middle grounds. Sad but true. Now, I didn't say teamfirst was a defender....don't recall his history and couldn't care less, just said that when you use, what I think, are bad argumentaiton to prove a point, it's because your first and foremost goal was to defend him at any cost.

Not sure why it's that big of a deal to have a post being portrait as defending Bergie though....

Geez I'm far from being a fan and I do use sometimes ''In Bergie's defense...''lol
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
Well for 3 to 4 years now, you've been around enough to see that 2 camps emerged, the bashers and the defenders. With no room for middle grounds. Sad but true. Now, I didn't say teamfirst was a defender....don't recall his history and couldn't care less, just said that when you use, what I think, are bad argumentaiton to prove a point, it's because your first and foremost goal was to defend him at any cost.
It doesn't have to be this way...but yes, agreed, sad but true.

P.S. the "two camps" thing annoys the **** out of me.

Not sure why it's that big of a deal to have a post being portrait as defending Bergie though....

Geez I'm far from being a fan and I do use sometimes ''In Bergie's defense...''lol
Because it makes often worthy discussions, degenerate into pissing contests.

See post right above yours for reference.
 

Zorba

Registered User
May 26, 2011
11,505
7,208
DELTA BC
Is Laine a hab yet? Gardiner?
We had PP problems and top 6 problems and no fix yet.
We have all summer though. Maybe another Doug Murray or semin incoming???
 
  • Like
Reactions: habsfan891
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->