Marc Bergevin: Even a broken clock is right twice a day Edition

[tazsub3]

Bergevin made bad trades. I agree with people here but if you analyse his trades, there are a lot of good ones.

His problem was that summer he lost Radulov, Markov, Emelin and replaces them with Alzner.

you are correct, his non signing is his downfall, and his overpayment for alzner type. trades are better then ok overall

 

[tazsub3]

Yeah how's that third working out on our left side?

better the nb when it will matter

 

[OldCraig71]

Some people seem to think so, or at least a sufficiently large majority to treat it as such. Read the PGT from last night.

Face the facts groove, this is a great team and once we make the playoffs anything can happen!

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Find me one person who said they were untouchable. I infinityple dare you.

I can't remember a single person who said that about Tinordi. It might've happened, but considering your other examples, i'd have to guess you're lumping lone individuals into the HF hivemind, as if most people who aren't as brilliant as you, all believe this.

The Gallagher Ovy thing was ONE PERSON, one very misguided person.

....but not as misguided as you.

I mean, your position would have to be pretty weak, or you'd have to be a very poor debater if all you can do is resort to hivemind strawman arguments.

Your post says more about you than anyone you measly point your shaky and grumpy finger at.

I didn't think many thought of Tinordi as untouchable, thanks Oyz.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

So you do it again nice- you're really taking this too seriously. I wasn't supporting anyone's argument- just chiming in to say that our first round picks were indeed valued as such when they were drafted, which is a fact.

Sure, this doesn't make them untouchable.

 

[CHaracter79]

Can’t believe people are bringing up beaulieu in this thread . He sucks get over it. Reilly is better mete is better heck even schlemko is better. Not withstanding our need for a top pairing LD,beaulieu is garbage....

 

[DAChampion]

Can’t believe people are bringing up beaulieu in this thread . He sucks get over it. Reilly is better mete is better heck even schlemko is better. Not withstanding our need for a top pairing LD,beaulieu is garbage....

But he can fight.

 

[Spearmint Rhino]

Reilly is better? I dunno. Schlemko is awful. Mete isn't better.

How about: they're all below average-at-best?

fixed

 

[Doc McKenna]

Well there are some other proofs. We whine about Timmins not getting high picks, well in 2003, we could have done much better with our 1st rounder....Urquhart is a failure when Bergeron in the Q was still availble. And while Lapierre and O'Byrne played in the league, they were fillers. Not exactly top superstars. David Backes was pick 1 pick after Lapierre. Joe Pavelski was picked not far after Flood. Byfuglien was picked not far after Bonneau. Halak is actually the guys that saved that draft. A 9th rounder.
2004: Again, plenty of fillers. Grabovski and Streit are the closest to top prospects. And yet again, we needed a 9th rounder for Streit, something we didn't have in Timmins toughest years.
2005: Price. But then a top 5 pick.
2006: Failure of a draft
2007: The only great draft of Timmins

So frankly, as good as Timmins was prior to 2008, he wasn't good at finding gems. Or when he did....he needed a 9th round to do so. So blame the lack of rounds. But Timmins wasn't THAT awesome at finding top players either. AS bad as he was since 2008, his greatest gem achievement happened in 2010 with Gallagher, aside from Subban. 'Cause both McDonagh and Pacioretty were scheduled to go 1st round. And we were lucky that LA went off board to go with Hickey at 4.

So after 2008, what people are saying is that Timmins lack picks. The good ones. And the quality of it. Now, it's solely about Lefebvre? I just find it too easy.

Round this bush again whitesnake? This IS on lefebvre and therrien. If you aren't getting them ready for the big game and are only playing systems while telling players to NOT play offensively? Like seriously, how is that not a development issue. Second we aren't talking even top 6. What do we have playing on our team that is even a hab draft pick. Lehk...and? We had some value but most of it got traded or busted because of development. Maybe we took 9th rounders and actually developed them.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Can’t believe people are bringing up beaulieu in this thread . He sucks get over it. Reilly is better mete is better heck even schlemko is better. Not withstanding our need for a top pairing LD,beaulieu is garbage....

And here is the delusion we are talking about. Go back and read top pairing about Nate back in 2013. The guy had way more potential than what is sitting in our stands a quarter of the games. But I guess it was just another bad draft pick according to some.

 

[Agalloch]

you are correct, his non signing is his downfall, and his overpayment for alzner type. trades are better then ok overall

This is the fault of his scouting department then. The problem with the Habs is the scouts in general... but it's Bergevin that hired them so he's part of the problem too.

And here is the delusion we are talking about. Go back and read top pairing about Nate back in 2013. The guy had way more potential than what is sitting in our stands a quarter of the games. But I guess it was just another bad draft pick according to some.

Beaulieu is Reilly but overpaid (except the fighting part). It's simple as that...

 

[habsfan909]

Reilly is better? I dunno. Schlemko is awful. Mete isn't better.

How about: they're all average-at-best?

I can't believe our expectations are so poor that we now think Reilly is a good D-man. Crazy how that happened.

 

[Kriss E]

Round this bush again whitesnake? This IS on lefebvre and therrien. If you aren't getting them ready for the big game and are only playing systems while telling players to NOT play offensively? Like seriously, how is that not a development issue. Second we aren't talking even top 6. What do we have playing on our team that is even a hab draft pick. Lehk...and? We had some value but most of it got traded or busted because of development. Maybe we took 9th rounders and actually developed them.

I don't think @Whitesnake is excusing the development crew here. He's saying it's both as far as I understand..
You said it yourself, we ain't talking about top 6 here. The fact we're not is on Timmins. I don't think any coach would have turned Tinordi into a top 2 pairing guy, but a bottom pair one? Ya. I blame the development guys for not telling him to stop getting into ridiculous fights, most of them completely unnecessary, I mean for real, why in the world was he fighting enforcers like Pedan?
Tinordi had the pressure to play this big tough guy because he was big, which was dumb. They should have told him to stop that and focus on his actual flaws. And then, even if they didn't quite like him, you make him rot in the pressbox for like 3 months before trading him???
That's on them...but why did we even pick Tinordi in the first place? Especially when guys like Kuznetsov, Toffoli, even Nelson, were available. That's on Timmins.

That's just one example. There are others.

It's not just on the development. They sucked and needed to go, no doubt, but Timmins has been riding this 2007 draft for far too long as well. To me, his failure to get us a top 2 center in 15 years is a massive failure.

Sometimes it's mostly development. Like how we were not able to turn De La Rose into a steady 4th or 3rd line center when he already came in with NHL-level defensive awareness is pretty much all on development. How we picked David Fisher, well that's all on drafting. Sometimes, like Tinner, you can blame both.
TT has a bigger leash, but his picks under Bergey better start coming to some real fruition real soon otherwise I have no idea how he survives.

 

[DAChampion]

I don't think @Whitesnake is excusing the development crew here. He's saying it's both as far as I understand..
You said it yourself, we ain't talking about top 6 here. The fact we're not is on Timmins. I don't think any coach would have turned Tinordi into a top 2 pairing guy, but a bottom pair one? Ya. I blame the development guys for not telling him to stop getting into ridiculous fights, most of them completely unnecessary, I mean for real, why in the world was he fighting enforcers like Pedan?
Tinordi had the pressure to play this big tough guy because he was big, which was dumb. They should have told him to stop that and focus on his actual flaws. And then, even if they didn't quite like him, you make him rot in the pressbox for like 3 months before trading him???
That's on them...but why did we even pick Tinordi in the first place? Especially when guys like Kuznetsov, Toffoli, even Nelson, were available. That's on Timmins.

That's just one example. There are others.

It's not just on the development. They sucked and needed to go, no doubt, but Timmins has been riding this 2007 draft for far too long as well. To me, his failure to get us a top 2 center in 15 years is a massive failure.

Sometimes it's mostly development. Like how we were not able to turn De La Rose into a steady 4th or 3rd line center when he already came in with NHL-level defensive awareness is pretty much all on development. How we picked David Fisher, well that's all on drafting. Sometimes, like Tinner, you can blame both.
TT has a bigger leash, but his picks under Bergey better start coming to some real fruition real soon otherwise I have no idea how he survives.

The way I see it, the unbelievably awful development environment with the previous coaches afforded a credible excuse to Timmins' record in the previous few years. For example, Sylvain Lefebvre was discouraging his forward prospects from scoring goals. Meanwhile, Lehkonen, who was developed in Europe, is the best player of the 2nd round of the 2013 draft.

So, in light of that, I give Timmins another two years. The coaching is now improved at both levels. Given that I blame development, I expect Fleury, Brook, Poehling, etc to do a lot better than previous prospects. If they bust just as hard, then I will have to acknowledge that I have been mistaken, and that indeed Timmins is no longer good.

 

[Whitesnake]

Round this bush again whitesnake? This IS on lefebvre and therrien. If you aren't getting them ready for the big game and are only playing systems while telling players to NOT play offensively? Like seriously, how is that not a development issue. Second we aren't talking even top 6. What do we have playing on our team that is even a hab draft pick. Lehk...and? We had some value but most of it got traded or busted because of development. Maybe we took 9th rounders and actually developed them.

Well I don't believe it's exclusively on them. You really believe that Lefebvre was told to not play offensively. The way this organization works, and probably quite a few, is that they play the same system in the AHL that they play in the NHL in order for the AHL'ers to be ready to jump in.

Why isn't it exclusively a development issue? 'Cause I don't believe anybody can take a great future NHL'er and make him not even a ECHL'er. I'm sorry. It just doesn't exist. If you think that Lefebvre and Therrien were able to do that so much, why didn't happen to Gallagher too? Galchenyuk is still the best scorer of his draft year.....what was the expectations for him? Future hall of famer? DLR, Ghetto and Lehkonen are in the NHL.....what should they have been?

Those 9th rounders we developed...well one guy, Halak, was put aside for Carey Price during a playoffs despite being the starter for its team...not sure how great it was for development. Streit went from Swiss to Habs. Streit was drafted at 26 years old. You don't think development was already well on its way?

 

[DAChampion]

'Cause I don't believe anybody can take a great future NHL'er and make him not even a ECHL'er. I'm sorry.

Why would hockey be the only activity in human life where development doesn't have a tremendous impact?

If it's true of everything from chess to school to Olympic skiing, then why not hockey?

 

[Censored Toad]

Face the facts groove, this is a great team and once we make the playoffs anything can happen!

Everything is looking up.. we will make the play offs and our drafting will be amazing... I can smell that cup... No more negativity here!!! Marc has done an amazing job

 

[Doc McKenna]

Well I don't believe it's exclusively on them. You really believe that Lefebvre was told to not play offensively. The way this organization works, and probably quite a few, is that they play the same system in the AHL that they play in the NHL in order for the AHL'ers to be ready to jump in.

Why isn't it exclusively a development issue? 'Cause I don't believe anybody can take a great future NHL'er and make him not even a ECHL'er. I'm sorry. It just doesn't exist. If you think that Lefebvre and Therrien were able to do that so much, why didn't happen to Gallagher too? Galchenyuk is still the best scorer of his draft year.....what was the expectations for him? Future hall of famer? DLR, Ghetto and Lehkonen are in the NHL.....what should they have been?

Those 9th rounders we developed...well one guy, Halak, was put aside for Carey Price during a playoffs despite being the starter for its team...not sure how great it was for development. Streit went from Swiss to Habs. Streit was drafted at 26 years old. You don't think development was already well on its way?

Im not a big timmins guy, but its the fact we can't develop anything. Gally spent 5 months under sly, chucky none and many believe he has been diminished because of how he was developed. Ghetto was a decent prospect IMO. Sly in fact told players to not play offensively "as they are only third liners". Bringing up Halak only weakens your case, again he is before MB era. So he seems to have been developed well and is the #2 goalie in the league. I was on team halak so I won't get into this. Streit wasn't developed during the MB habs.

I mean the examples you are using are what highlights how bad our development has been. We can't even manage that level of player in 6 seasons. So why did we develop OK players up till 2012. We have nothing to show for the last 6 seasons outside of player developed in europe or never played under SL at all.

I don't think timmins is great, but he is certainly a lot better than what we have seen for over half a decade. If he is getting us possibly tweeners then its up to us to develop them to at least stay tweeners. If he is getting us third liners(a fail for many first rounders) then they should at least be 3rd liners. We don't even have that. Throwing darts is better than what we have so I can't put the blame on timmins.

Can you show me(not being rude) who actually has drafted and developed less than we have in the last 6 years. You can have bad drafting, but if you have very bad development you will stunt any potential those players had. Elller and Chuck being put aside for davey and pleks is a prime example. Not just Sylvain, Therrien too.

 

[Doc McKenna]

DP

 

[Whitesnake]

The way I see it, the unbelievably awful development environment with the previous coaches afforded a credible excuse to Timmins' record in the previous few years. For example, Sylvain Lefebvre was discouraging his forward prospects from scoring goals. Meanwhile, Lehkonen, who was developed in Europe, is the best player of the 2nd round of the 2013 draft.

So, in light of that, I give Timmins another two years. The coaching is now improved at both levels. Given that I blame development, I expect Fleury, Brook, Poehling, etc to do a lot better than previous prospects. If they bust just as hard, then I will have to acknowledge that I have been mistaken, and that indeed Timmins is no longer good.

We said that Tinordi was a failure from Lefebvre 'cause the guy wasn't even able to play in the NHL....was Beaulieu a Lefebvre's success then? Was Pateryn? Hudon? Ghetto? DLR? Carr?

Just wondering....if Lefebvre and Therrien gets all the blame...do Timmins gets the praise for the ones that worked? Or the praise should go to whoever was there AHL And NHL?

Why is it that Timmins gets the praises when it works....and never the blame when it doesn't?

 

[Agalloch]

We said that Tinordi was a failure from Lefebvre 'cause the guy wasn't even able to play in the NHL....was Beaulieu a Lefebvre's success then? Was Pateryn? Hudon? Ghetto? DLR? Carr?

Just wondering....if Lefebvre and Therrien gets all the blame...do Timmins gets the praise for the ones that worked? Or the praise should go to whoever was there AHL And NHL?

Why is it that Timmins gets the praises when it works....and never the blame when it doesn't?

Agree. Timmins is overrated here. I don't understand why he can't never be wrong...

 

[Whitesnake]

Why would hockey be the only activity in human life where development doesn't have a tremendous impact?

If it's true of everything from chess to school to Olympic skiing, then why not hockey?

Yes, development is real and big. But to a point to completely transform somebody? No, I don't believe it. Yes, we could probably think that with great development, Tinordi could have been a fine bottom pairing D. That with proper teaching, DLR would certainly be a fine 4th line C. But is it Lefebvre's fault if Collberg never developed? Is it Lefebvre's fault if Fischer never developed?

 

[Rapala]

Good point. Thats what has gone missing.

And all the dumb posts that go along with it mea culpa.

 

[Rapala]

Yes, development is real and big. But to a point to completely transform somebody? No, I don't believe it. Yes, we could probably think that with great development, Tinordi could have been a fine bottom pairing D. That with proper teaching, DLR would certainly be a fine 4th line C. But is it Lefebvre's fault if Collberg never developed? Is it Lefebvre's fault if Fischer never developed?

For me it's a question of validating why a player was drafted in the first place. And yes most definitely Lefebvre was asked to play a certain way it was brought up many times over. But what I never understood was trying to shove players into molds. If we can't exploit what got them drafted in the first place we've got a huge problem on our hands.

 

[Bloumeister]

What?

I take a few minutes out of my oh-so-very busy schedule to create a new 'shoop, and posts are gone?

Whatever.

This one's for you, @OldCraig71