Sportsnet: Maple Leafs must add proven defenders, move on from all-offence identity

[bodechek]

Anyone who says that there is no problem with the defence is entitled to their opinion. But the Leafs have been trying the run and gun system in the playoffs for 4 seasons now and it has not worked, and I doubt it will work next season either!

 

[david999]

Some of the doom and gloom of posters here is unbelievable.
Yes the Leafs lost the series, but it was very, very close. I’m not denying that an upgrade on defence isn’t warranted, but a bounce in their favour during game 1 or 5 would have doused some of the hair on fire attitudes here. Unfortunately, Andersen was outplayed by his counterparts on Columbus.

 

[RoadWarrior]

No money, unless you'll give up Mitch.
or Nylander.

Upcoming Free Agency will create some cap space on its own. Trades can add even more.

There's no chance Barrie or Ceci are returning. That alone frees up enough space to sign an actual defenceman and/or grinding forward who can replace one of the ballerinas up front.

 

[pcruz]

You can't win this one because people will quote Pens who did it twice with 2 generational centres in their primes ... it has occured in Stanley Cup history but twice/thrice in over 100 years in not good odds really ...

Ummm, Letang played nearly 30 minutes a night. He was a Norris finalist.
Also, some guy named Murray came in and was lights out.

Also, all we need is the best player since Mario, and then another Hart winner, combined with a guy who should have won the Conn Smythe above either of those 2!

Should be easy to replicate!

Other than those Pens, when was the Cup last won by a team with average to below average defense?

Tampa? Carolina? I can’t remember their defensive corps. That’s going 15-17 years back now.....

 

[RoadWarrior]

no expert but I thought (this series) our defenders were fine especially with the shakeup when Muzzin went down...it was our forwards that struggled in all zones, excluding those 5 mins in game 4...I'm in the minority I know but I think 1 or 2 of our "star" forwards needs to go...Dubas' theory CAN work imo..just not with this group of forwards...

The forwards struggled because they were either :

a) forced to defend down low to support the D or
b) struggled in transition through the neutral zone because Rielly was the only D making passes

In other words the forwards had little support from the back end.

Holl, Marincin, Ceci, Dermott don't have enough toughness or hockey IQ to play more than 10 minutes a game in a 3rd pairing role. They shouldn't have been forced to take on greater responsibilities. Doing so cost the leafs this series.

 

[goleafsgo1990]

Some of the doom and gloom of posters here is unbelievable.
Yes the Leafs lost the series, but it was very, very close. I’m not denying that an upgrade on defence isn’t warranted, but a bounce in their favour during game 1 or 5 would have doused some of the hair on fire attitudes here. Unfortunately, Andersen was outplayed by his counterparts on Columbus.

No doom and gloom. They just are who we thought they were.

Do you really think this roster could handle 4 playoff series where each opponent is locked in on destroying us physically? Took only 3 games to lose our only physical player besides Clifford.

Wanna know why Pittsburgh won with a mediocre defense? Better goaltending, the best two centers in the league (who're gritty) surrounded by gritty veterans and somewhat reliable defense (far more than ours this season).

The sad reality is the Leafs stars are missing an essential ingredient they cannot acquire and it will hinder their ability to win when it matters most.

They will have to be heavily insulated with players who do possess this ingredient.

 

[Cleetus]

Upcoming Free Agency will create some cap space on its own. Trades can add even more.

There's no chance Barrie or Ceci are returning. That alone frees up enough space to sign an actual defenceman and/or grinding forward who can replace one of the ballerinas up front.

dont forget some players are getting pay raises holl is going from 675K to 2M, Campbell going from 675K to 1.65M, Muzz is going from 4M to 5.625M

 

[Just Rude]

Some of the doom and gloom of posters here is unbelievable.
Yes the Leafs lost the series, but it was very, very close. I’m not denying that an upgrade on defence isn’t warranted, but a bounce in their favour during game 1 or 5 would have doused some of the hair on fire attitudes here. Unfortunately, Andersen was outplayed by his counterparts on Columbus.

We need to stop with this mentality. If ifs ands and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

We lost. Period. We were close in both Boston series, as well. Took it to the limit with lacklustre efforts in all three deciding games.

How long are we going to keep saying "yeah, but we almost won?"

 

[KuleminFan41]

Well when do they let them play? Or do we keep Lilly and Sandin mostly in the minors until they are 25 and maybe ready?

Yes I am being a tad extreme but we draft players for a reason and these are not bad prospects.

We have Cody Ceci and Martin Marincin playing.......... we allow those two guys to play on our backend. How in the world can that be better (nhl experience aside)

While I'm not a huge fan of Ceci, but to be fair to him, when Ottawa went to the conference semi finals, he was the 2nd highest average ice time among defencemen for the Sens just behind Karlsson . Saying that, I wouldn't bring back Ceci

 

[ULF_55]

A goal or 2 during the shutout losses would have been nice.

Maybe they can draft a defender who can move the puck, defend, and play smart?

Fans would probably have to have some patience and not expect him to come in as a teenager and take over the defense ...

 

[KuleminFan41]

We need to stop with this mentality. If ifs ands and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

We lost. Period. We were close in both Boston series, as well. Took it to the limit with lacklustre efforts in all three deciding games.

How long are we going to keep saying "yeah, but we almost won?"

I understand your point of view and even agree to some extent, but I think people really forget just how young the Leafs actually are and they're likely going to get younger next season when guys like Ceci(26) , Barrie(29) , Spezza(37) and Clifford(29) get replaced by younger players like Sandin(20) , Robertson(18) , and Liljegren(21). I can't imagine the Leafs not making moves though that would bring in more players above the age of 25

 

[Just Rude]

I understand your point of view and even agree to some extent, but I think people really forget just how young the Leafs actually are and they're likely going to get younger next season when guys like Ceci(26) , Barrie(29) , Spezza(37) and Clifford(29) get replaced by younger players like Sandin(20) , Robertson(18) , and Liljegren(21). I can't imagine the Leafs not making moves though that would bring in more players above the age of 25

It's a fair point. I'm just not sold on Sandin and Timmy solving the defensive depth issue or what we need up front, at least not yet.

 

[fahad203]

They need to start with the music they play at Scotiabank
Everything about this organization is so childish, so juvenile. It's essentially like watching Disney on ice
Even our goal celebration music is so cute and lovable

They need to start with some hiphop music, some metalica, some ACDC

I am so sick of this organization being so bloody white color in every aspect.

 

[stealth1]

A goal or 2 during the shutout losses would have been nice.

Maybe they can draft a defender who can move the puck, defend, and play smart?

Fans would probably have to have some patience and not expect him to come in as a teenager and take over the defense ...

That's not going to do much to fix this team. Marner, Matthews and Nylander have to start playing playoff hockey for things to change. Go into the corners, hit some people, play a little gritty. Trying to play run and gun in the playoffs doesn't work.

 

[PromisedLand]

We have great offense, what's the harm in upgrading our defense? It's only been our weakness for the last DECADE or so..

I'm shocked some people are in denial about this, including Dubas.

Posted the quote below in another thread but it also applies in this thread for Dubas and Dubas apologists

 

[BrainyBomber]

I believe it is entirely plausible that the offense was constrained to backfill the capacity gap of the defense. If true, the offense is far more capable of more production if it spent less time worrying about defensive execution.

In my books, anyone not names Matthews, Marner and Tavares are the right pool to begin looking at for trade.

This is a good point.

Continuing with this optimization perspective do you really think Marner is worth 40% more than Nylander tho? Their playoff performances are pretty equitable. Filling the defensive talent gap would be much easier shifting Marner especially with a flat cap in the foreseeable future. His PK contribution could be filled with a solid defensive forward which we need to acquire atleast 1 of anyways and would fetch a better return.

33.5m for 3 players is pretty steep with a flat cap especially if we want an elite RD.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Ummm, Letang played nearly 30 minutes a night. He was a Norris finalist.
Also, some guy named Murray came in and was lights out.

Also, all we need is the best player since Mario, and then another Hart winner, combined with a guy who should have won the Conn Smythe above either of those 2!

Should be easy to replicate!

Other than those Pens, when was the Cup last won by a team with average to below average defense?

Tampa? Carolina? I can’t remember their defensive corps. That’s going 15-17 years back now.....

Vast majority of time DEFENSE wins Cups.. some Leaf fans are not about Cups they enjoy watching their favs play which is their right ... some like me only care about Cups to each his own ... but this team as it is constituted is not even a playoff team we are a bubble team hoping to get better with no CAP space ... so only way to do it is trade forwards for DEFENSE and DEVELOP defense we have properly with right mentors

 

[saffronleaf]

I definitely agree we need a stud on D, especially RD.

But if we're just going by goals allowed, you have to consider goaltending, too. Freddy was abysmal all year.

He did well in the playoffs relatively speaking, only losing to backup goaltenders (rather than zamboni drivers) and only letting in a few backbreaking stinkers.

 

[saffronleaf]

Even if we get peak Lidstrom, with Freddy in net there is no point playing out the season. Just forfeit and get it over with.

 

[Trapper]

I definitely agree we need a stud on D, especially RD.

But if we're just going by goals allowed, you have to consider goaltending, too. Freddy was abysmal all year.

He did well in the playoffs relatively speaking, only losing to backup goaltenders (rather than zamboni drivers) and only letting in a few backbreaking stinkers.

Carey Price had a great series for Montreal (as per fans/media)
4 games 7 goals against, 1.67 GAA .947 SV%

Cory Crawford (media article, why Crawford just keeps getting better in this series against the Oilers.
4 games 15 goals against 3.75 GAA .891 SV%

And then there is Andersen.
Maple Leafs, physician heal thyself.

 

[rumman]

Yeah they tried to build with too many herbivores and realized a balance was required.

sick burn............

 

[Havoc]

Anyone who says that there is no problem with the defence is entitled to their opinion. But the Leafs have been trying the run and gun system in the playoffs for 4 seasons now and it has not worked, and I doubt it will work next season either!

I disagree Leafs have been run and gun. We play very ugly hockey.

We don't actually have an identity. Our core just carries us with their talent then we hope for the best come playoffs. People who give us an identity probably don't watch games. There is nothing run and gun about this team. Run and gun is at least exciting.

We don't have the D capable of supporting run and gun offence or any kind of strategy for that matter.

We've never actually seen the full potential of our top 6 yet.

Team can't go anywhere until we get a QB. Columbus is a low scoring team but even they have a better breakout than us. Notice how Werenski isn't some big 200 hit per season defender either. Yet if we had a player like him I doubt Marner is at home on xbox right now.

Next season is short they should just gut the bottom 6 and bottom 3 D and tank for a QB

 

[rumman]

Anyone who says that there is no problem with the defence is entitled to their opinion. But the Leafs have been trying the run and gun system in the playoffs for 4 seasons now and it has not worked, and I doubt it will work next season either!

O Dog mentioned it yesterday, the term was shinny hockey, anyone who's played it understands...............

 

[PuckMagi]

Our defense is too crappy. Having Ceci in the top 6 and basically putting him on the top pair with Rielly is pretty horrible. The guy is a #6 at best, but he was being used in a top 4 role. And when we lost Muzzin we had to go with Marincin. So we had two pretty bad defenders. Barrie didn't look all that good. We basically had Rielly and Muzzin as our only two good defenders. Holl was solid, but he's no superstar or anything. So when Muzzin went down, we basically had Rielly as our only good defender. I would have rather rolled the dice a little bit and gone with Sandin and Liljegren.

 

[Notsince67]

This is a good point.

Continuing with this optimization perspective do you really think Marner is worth 40% more than Nylander tho? Their playoff performances are pretty equitable. Filling the defensive talent gap would be much easier shifting Marner especially with a flat cap in the foreseeable future. His PK contribution could be filled with a solid defensive forward which we need to acquire atleast 1 of anyways and would fetch a better return.

33.5m for 3 players is pretty steep with a flat cap especially if we want an elite RD.

I do and I dealt with this on another post.
Skill and comp (correlated) is not normally distributed. It is distributed via a pareto distribution curve.
Speculation: - Marner or Nylander?