Manitoba Moose moving to St. John's (upd: confirmed)

Trevor3

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Nov 16, 2010
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I can't imagine the AHL approving a move if there's no promise from the team to pay for travel and I'd be a tad surprised if TNSE stepped up and paid for it themselves. Thunder Bay is building a new arena, so they should have the upper hand in the long run if the team ends up somewhere other than St John's for the upcoming season.

St. John's knows its on the hook to pay for travel, that's why this $500,000 was requested from the provincial government. Right now they're exploring alternative routes to securing that money. If I were a betting man, I would expect a "travel surcharge" of sorts built into the ticket prices that will essentially bump the face value of every ticket up $2 or so.

Many have said that $500,000 is pocket change for Danny "Millions" Williams, but he is only acting as a mediator in the process and is not actually involved with the ownership group as a partner. Although, he has commented over the past few weeks that he may seek to become a partner after the deal is done...take that for what its worth.
 

roccerfeller

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Sep 27, 2009
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St. John's knows its on the hook to pay for travel, that's why this $500,000 was requested from the provincial government. Right now they're exploring alternative routes to securing that money. If I were a betting man, I would expect a "travel surcharge" of sorts built into the ticket prices that will essentially bump the face value of every ticket up $2 or so.

Many have said that $500,000 is pocket change for Danny "Millions" Williams, but he is only acting as a mediator in the process and is not actually involved with the ownership group as a partner. Although, he has commented over the past few weeks that he may seek to become a partner after the deal is done...take that for what its worth.

This is very likely too
 

roccerfeller

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Sep 27, 2009
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Damn that sucks for AHL fans in St Johns...

we'll have to see what pans out. Word is TNSE will own the Moose at least for a season so they may yet play in NFLD, just not permanently...

Good thing there are backup plans for the Moose. St Johns is still apparently the plan for now. But TNSE & the AHL have other plans in case St Johns doesnt work out.
 

Shootmaster_44

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Sep 10, 2005
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They'll be adding more once the 2nd terminal is finished being built. And like someone else has said, TSNE flies the Moose via charter

Thing with a charter is that I think the Moose currently are trying to be run like a NHL team to prove to the NHL TSNE can run a NHL team. Once the Thrashers (or whomever) land in Winnipeg, I figure that the Moose's operational budget would be scaled back a little bit. The other thing is I believe the company they charter from is based in Winnipeg. I'm not sure that the Moose would pay to have an aircrew (and aircraft) relocate to St. John's.

I realize that St. John's has a history with the AHL and no permanent tenant for their relatively new arena. But it does make me wonder why that is their primary destination? Wouldn't it make more sense to move the team to Chiliwack, BC and keep the affiliation with the Canucks and the Thrashers would remain with Chicago?

Also, since it has been a long standing rumor that True North wants a WHL to compliment their NHL team, why do they not simply have the Moose remain in Winnipeg? Since the WHL has no plans to expand and I would imagine no WHL franchise owner is wanting to swap teams, wouldn't the Moose be just as good an option? This is assuming that True North is simply looking to fill dates at the MTS Centre. A WHL franchise would be a cheaper option since they wouldn't have to pay salaries and the farthest they would have to travel is Portland, Oregon and it would be by bus. But if it is simply to fill dates, what is wrong with the AHL?

My other question regarding this is it looks like True North is planning to move the Moose regardless of the NHL situation. Seems like all the talk out of St. John's is that it is a done deal and I seem to remember reading quotes from the AHL saying as much. Why would they do this?

I realize that they would know for sure that the Thrashers deal is done or not. But let's assume for a second that this is 1983 again. The deal could be done between Atlanta Spirit LLC and True North, but the NHL owners still have to approve it. Let's say for whatever reason a number of NHL owners decide that Winnipeg is a bad sell, they could block the move. If they couldn't the St. Louis Blues would be no more and likely be in some Southern US city via Saskatoon.

For those unaware, the St. Louis Blues ownership, Ralston-Purinia I believe, sold the team to Bill Hunter and a group of investors from Saskatoon in 1983. The plan was to move them to Saskatoon for the 83-84 season. However, the NHL blocked the move something like 18-2. However, the franchise instability caused the Blues to skip the 1983 Entry Draft. I believe the only teams who voted in favour of the move were the Canadiens (more because Molson didn't want a backlash again, so shortly after the backlash from Nordiques fans in 1979) and the Flames. I've never figured out why the Jets didn't support it. The Oilers obviously wouldn't support it since it would cut into what they feel is their natural territory.

Anyway, I could foresee something similar happening to the proposed move of the Thrashers. For no other reason than travel concerns, I could see the Southwest Division voting against this move. Some of the other clubs might vote against it since Winnipeg doesn't sell seats. The other thing that might happen is that True North has to operate the Thrashers in Atlanta for next season and can move them to Winnipeg for 2012-13.

At any rate, I think True North might be putting the horse before the cart in moving the Moose. They might end up with no AHL team and no NHL team for next season and thus an empty arena.
 

Trevor3

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Nov 16, 2010
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^
The only issue I have with this is, does Atlanta put people in the seats at opposing arenas?

But back on topic, the lack of a subsidy coming has been seen as negative. However, I believe Williams is trying to play it up as being worse than it is, in order to try and get the province back to the table and closely consider a subsidy. Premier Kathy Dunderdale said this evening on CBC news that the proposal was tossed out because SJSE made a weak argument as to how the team would benefit the local economy. However, she seemed to indicate that the province wasn't 100% opposed to the idea, perhaps trying to get SJSE back to the table to make a better proposal. The concept of employing rink staff full time, having players living in the city on a semi-permanent basis, attracting more people to the downtown early in the evening, are all aspects which need to be played up. Plus, if the team were to be profitable it could allow the city to reduce its subsidy of 1.25 annually to SJSE and Mile One Centre.

If the city and SJSE get together and put this proposal back on the table it could very well come through. I don't like the idea of provincial governments being involved in pro sports BUT this is Newfoundland and it seems that most times the House of Assembly is an extension of, or higher level of, city government.
 

tbcwpg

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Jan 25, 2011
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1) I realize that St. John's has a history with the AHL and no permanent tenant for their relatively new arena. But it does make me wonder why that is their primary destination? Wouldn't it make more sense to move the team to Chiliwack, BC and keep the affiliation with the Canucks and the Thrashers would remain with Chicago?

2) Also, since it has been a long standing rumor that True North wants a WHL to compliment their NHL team, why do they not simply have the Moose remain in Winnipeg? Since the WHL has no plans to expand and I would imagine no WHL franchise owner is wanting to swap teams, wouldn't the Moose be just as good an option? This is assuming that True North is simply looking to fill dates at the MTS Centre. A WHL franchise would be a cheaper option since they wouldn't have to pay salaries and the farthest they would have to travel is Portland, Oregon and it would be by bus. But if it is simply to fill dates, what is wrong with the AHL?

3) My other question regarding this is it looks like True North is planning to move the Moose regardless of the NHL situation. Seems like all the talk out of St. John's is that it is a done deal and I seem to remember reading quotes from the AHL saying as much. Why would they do this?

Seperated your posts into 3 since it's easier to respond:

1) TNSE, if they own an NHL franchise, are not going to operate the AHL affiliate of a different NHL franchise. I doubt the Canucks, also, would like the same guy who signs Byfuglien's cheques to also be in charge of developing their players. Conflict of interest. The Moose would be the new Winnipeg NHL team's affiliate, and Vancouver has to find someone else.

2) Haven't seen the WHL rumours reported anywhere, but the MTS Centre would not be looking to just fill dates. It's the 9th busiest arena in North America. They'd be adding 3 dates with the longer NHL schedule (41 games plus 3 exhibition, compared to the new AHL schedule of 38 home games and no exhibition here). Plus they are never starved for concerts or events. This week, the MTS Centre had Kid Rock Tuesday, and WWE tonight.

3) Any move for the AHL Moose would be contingent on the NHL franchise coming here. TNSE is not going to move their franchise without 100% confirmation that the NHL is coming, which would rely on all 3 parties involved (TNSE, ASG, NHL) signing it.
 

Shootmaster_44

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Sep 10, 2005
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Seperated your posts into 3 since it's easier to respond:

1) TNSE, if they own an NHL franchise, are not going to operate the AHL affiliate of a different NHL franchise. I doubt the Canucks, also, would like the same guy who signs Byfuglien's cheques to also be in charge of developing their players. Conflict of interest. The Moose would be the new Winnipeg NHL team's affiliate, and Vancouver has to find someone else.

2) Haven't seen the WHL rumours reported anywhere, but the MTS Centre would not be looking to just fill dates. It's the 9th busiest arena in North America. They'd be adding 3 dates with the longer NHL schedule (41 games plus 3 exhibition, compared to the new AHL schedule of 38 home games and no exhibition here). Plus they are never starved for concerts or events. This week, the MTS Centre had Kid Rock Tuesday, and WWE tonight.

3) Any move for the AHL Moose would be contingent on the NHL franchise coming here. TNSE is not going to move their franchise without 100% confirmation that the NHL is coming, which would rely on all 3 parties involved (TNSE, ASG, NHL) signing it.

Actually #1 could happen. Different situation slightly, but the past two season saw AEG, the Kings parent company, own the ECHL's Reading Royals, even though the Boston Bruins are their affiliate. So it wouldn't be unusual. Though, who's to say that they couldn't sell it to the potential ownership group who wanted to save the WHL's Bruins in Chiliwack?

The second point you raised was mentioned many times over the last few years. Perhaps it was moreso reported in Saskatoon, as it was the Blades they were after. I don't understand the reasoning behind it. But, they seemed to want a WHL team. So I imagine that would be their next move after divesting itself of the Moose. This may also be why they are trying to play nice and that's why Thunder Bay and St. John's have popped up as potential landing points for the Moose. Neither fall into the WHL's territory, so they wouldn't upset the WHL further by moving them into Chiliwack or worse yet displacing a WHL franchise. I know the WHL was some upset at Abbotsford being granted an AHL franchise.

As for the third point, it seems like they are going forward on the AHL move. Like I say, with Danny Williams petitioning the Newfoundland government for money, it seems like the Moose are moving. Yet, the NHL Board of Governors haven't even approved the move of the Thrashers to Winnipeg. I honestly, think both of these moves are being made way too late in the year for them to happen for next year. I do have a suspicion that the Thrashers may be a lame duck in Atlanta for a year and the Moose in Winnipeg. I realize that the Thrashers could move to Winnipeg the day before the season and still sell season tickets like nobody's business.

However, I don't think the Moose have the same luxury in St. John's. Will that make any difference to True North? I doubt it, will it make a difference to the AHL? I am quite certain of it. Thus, any move of the Moose, needs the approval of the AHL Board of Governors. From the comments from Danny Williams, it does seem like the AHL would rather not have a team in St. John's. One of the articles quoted him saying something to the effect of this is St. John's last shot at the AHL, if it doesn't work out that is it. If that's the case, then I can't see how the AHL Board of Governors would approve a move.

My guess would be that the AHL would prefer to have the team move into the Midwestern US somewhere. But where that city is I am unsure. I know Kansas City has a fairly new arena that is sitting empty (or might have an indoor soccer team as the tenant). I'd imagine that is where the AHL (for that matter the NHL) would prefer the team to go.

On a selfish note, I'd prefer to see the Moose move to Saskatoon. I find the WHL to be a tired product, especially the Blades. It would be nice to see something new and have an ownership group that cares about putting a winning team on the ice.

The one thing I wonder, is will True North give the Moose the same freedom with roster moves as they had in Winnipeg? What I mean is it seems like Vancouver gives them about 7 or so slots on the roster to bring in their own players. Thus, they have the ability to compete for a Calder Cup. Compare that with the Manchester Monarchs, where the Kings would love to see a Calder Cup title there, but the goal is player development, not championships. So I wonder which model this franchise would take?
 

tbcwpg

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Jan 25, 2011
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My guess would be that the AHL would prefer to have the team move into the Midwestern US somewhere. But where that city is I am unsure. I know Kansas City has a fairly new arena that is sitting empty (or might have an indoor soccer team as the tenant). I'd imagine that is where the AHL (for that matter the NHL) would prefer the team to go.

On a selfish note, I'd prefer to see the Moose move to Saskatoon. I find the WHL to be a tired product, especially the Blades. It would be nice to see something new and have an ownership group that cares about putting a winning team on the ice.

The one thing I wonder, is will True North give the Moose the same freedom with roster moves as they had in Winnipeg? What I mean is it seems like Vancouver gives them about 7 or so slots on the roster to bring in their own players. Thus, they have the ability to compete for a Calder Cup. Compare that with the Manchester Monarchs, where the Kings would love to see a Calder Cup title there, but the goal is player development, not championships. So I wonder which model this franchise would take?

I think that, if the reports are true, they'd only be running the team for the first season anyway. I assume they'd run it the same way, success for the AHL team helps the bottom line, and it's worked well with Vancouver. After that, it would be up to the new owners.

The comments of Danny Williams indicate that the province would not like an AHL team there, rather than the other way around. The province not subsidizing travel costs is nothing to do with the AHL, although it might impact the teams coming into St. John's, and therefore the owners who would be affected by that may be against a move to St. John's.

Kansas City's arena may be empty of a professional sports franchise, but it's certainly not empty. Kansas City has expressed no interest in a hockey team as it would impact their revenues negatively from the arena.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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Vancouver GM Gillis during SCF media availability...

Looking at all options for AHL affiliate. May end up owning franchise. Not clear where it will be located.
 

MaskedSonja

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Vancouver GM Gillis during SCF media availability...

Looking at all options for AHL affiliate. May end up owning franchise. Not clear where it will be located.

Does Vancouver (or BC in general) not have an arena they could play out of? I just wonder if Vancouver would benefit from a team that's close to the parent ala Toronto for moving players up and down, like Toronto where someone called up literally just has to take a bus or streetcar to the ACC.
 

LeftCoast

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Aug 1, 2006
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Does Vancouver (or BC in general) not have an arena they could play out of? I just wonder if Vancouver would benefit from a team that's close to the parent ala Toronto for moving players up and down, like Toronto where someone called up literally just has to take a bus or streetcar to the ACC.

The WHL Vancouver Giants play out of the Pacific Colosseum which seats 16,000 or more, but I don't think the Vancouver market could support the Canucks, Giants, AHL (Abbotsford) Heat and another AHL team in the metro area (not to mention several BCHL teams). Metro Toronto is more than twice the size of metro Vancouver.
 

MaskedSonja

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The WHL Vancouver Giants play out of the Pacific Colosseum which seats 16,000 or more, but I don't think the Vancouver market could support the Canucks, Giants, AHL (Abbotsford) Heat and another AHL team in the metro area (not to mention several BCHL teams). Metro Toronto is more than twice the size of metro Vancouver.

RIGHT I forgot there already is The Heat in Van:laugh:

Yes, I see your point, they already have a NHL, AHL, and WHL team in the area.
 

BigBadBread

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Dec 4, 2006
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http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/Shows/1221254309/ID=1961662852

Theres prospective owner Danny Williams speaking to the media today about the ongoing discussions with the AHL Moose. Danny has always been a straight shooter so he tells it like it is.

He says this could be decided in hours or days and that TNSE is giving St. John's first choice at the franchise but must make a decision fast. Personally, I'm optimistic it will get done,then I can get in line to buy some season tickets. Would love to see some pro hockey on a regular basis.
 
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Trevor3

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Nov 16, 2010
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Stephenville - YJT
SJSE is currently meeting at Mile One to hammer out the details of the deal, Danny Williams is expected to speak to the media from the steps of Mile One when the meeting ends in approximately 30 mins (as per CBC).

So not done yet, but pretty close, and otherwise all but confirmed.
 

kdb209

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Jan 26, 2005
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SJSE is currently meeting at Mile One to hammer out the details of the deal, Danny Williams is expected to speak to the media from the steps of Mile One when the meeting ends in approximately 30 mins (as per CBC).

So not done yet, but pretty close, and otherwise all but confirmed.

I think you mean TNSE - unless the Sharks are moving.

Queue the Sharks to Newfoundland rumors - Make it Eight - it's all Ryane Clowe's fault :) .
 

musty sweater

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Apr 12, 2010
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I think you mean TNSE - unless the Sharks are moving.

Queue the Sharks to Newfoundland rumors - Make it Eight - it's all Ryane Clowe's fault :) .

SJSE=St johns sports and entertainment

But i would gladly take the sharks haha
 

wpgallday1960

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Great news for the Winnipeg franchise.

Player development is critical for the success of a small market team like Winnipeg.

Fan support for our prospects will be fantastic.

Love this move. Great for St. John's and a perfect arena size for the market & product. Let's hope there are many happy years for Winnipeg's farm team and Newfoundland fans.
 

PeaSouper

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Jul 28, 2009
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Would have been nice travel-wise to see the Moose move to Thunder Bay had Brunt's original rumours proven true. Still, though, as long as markets are getting another kick at the can, I suppose St. John's is as good as any.
 

HansH

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Man, there's going to be one messed-up alignment of the AHL next season if this comes through -- the AHL has made clear that they'll do pretty much anything to leave all the Canadian franchises in the same division, so the move from Winnipeg to St. John's would leave them in the same division (the AHL North, currently). That lineup would be:

St. John's
Hamilton
Toronto
Abbotsford
Rochester
Lake Erie
Grand Rapids

In other words, it would span five-and-a-half timezones in the same division... whee!!
 

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