Manitoba Moose 2017-18 Season

[Holden Caulfield]

Regarding Lemieux and penalties.... just for fun I went back and looked at the penalties Lemieux took in games that the Moose lost to see if he was the reason for the loss. Today he took a penalty and the game winning goal was scored during the PK. Other than that the only game where a goal was scored during a Lemieux penalty in a loss was March 4 where Lemieux protested the Petan penalty and received a 2 minute unsportsmanlike and a 10 minute unsportsmanlike penalty - both for abuse of the official. He was benched for the rest of the game. That is it. That's all there is.

When looking at his penalties however I now understand why he was benched for his abuse of the official penalty. He has done that several times this year. His "dumb" penalties are pretty much all "unsportsmanlike" for abusing the officials.

Whether or not the penalty he takes gets scored on is irrelevant, IMO. Yes it got the conversation started again here, but I personally am not concerned about that one penalty. I didn't see it, I can't know what it was like.

What is concerning is what you are mentioning. It's clear that he is very easily goaded into taking dumb selfish penalties. With that many you have to be. Taking dumb selfish penalties is plain unacceptable at any level, nevermind at the pro level. Teams have started to key on it. And honestly I think refs have too. Last year when I saw him more it was clear he was getting the benefit of the doubt as a rookie cause he was getting away with alot that should have been called. It looks more and more like he is developing a reputation and those things stick with refs. He had major question marks about his head in junior (his trade in junior was in very curious circumstances where one might ponder it was not a hockey motivated trade) and while it seemed like last year he had been starting to smarten up it seems to be getting worse and worse this year. That is not a good trend for a guy that's now 22 and should be starting to grow out of that stuff.

 

[CorgisPer60]

Yeah given that it was you I should have picked up on it, but maybe in the future throw a in there so I don't embarrass myself again

Bah. Good satire shouldn't need tells like

You did say tbh................but anyway, I happen to think Dundun is a bit of a dunce. Who knows what Carolina might do.

For future reference, I never use acronyms like that in a serious manner.

 

[Whileee]

We watched different games. Lemieux struggled to hold onto the puck at all in his Jets time and was a step behind the play. It's not uncommon with first time call-ups though, seen it with Kings players like Alec Martinez, Dwight King for example that I remember off top of my head.

Jets shouldn't be worried about him getting frusterated. He should be showing smarter in the AHL. There's been quite a few bad reports lately and these are confirmed things (sat out of a game for disciplinary reasons). NHL spots are not earned with that behavior. The fact that it's getting worse right now is a bad sign you have to agree at least to that.

I agree with you. It's a troubling trend. Now is the time young players need to realize it's not just about talent. Discipline and hard work will vault some prospects ahead, and others will lag. For Lemieux his discipline could leave him behind. For a player like Dano, I think it was an issue of conditioning in the off season. It's a highly competitive league, and now the Jets will be one of the toughest rosters to crack.

 

[JetsFan815]

I hope we can move on from Lemieux this summer, I don't see him as a fit with the Jets longterm. Hopefully Chevy can snag one of the Calgary prospect defensemen while he has value.

 

[garret9]

Whether or not the penalty he takes gets scored on is irrelevant, IMO.

I came in not to debate Lemieux but to comment that you are correct. Whether or not a team scores is irrelevant in evaluating a player, as the player did not control whether or not the team performed well/poorly on the penalty kill.

The proper way is to look at average probability the team is to be scored on and leverage (probability that impacts points in standings).

 

[Jimby]

The sheer number of unsportsmanlike penalties is stunning. No doubt the refs have him marked. If he can clean that one area up his minor penalty totals would be pretty ho hum. Just 6 minor penalties in 41 games for roughing, interference, hooking, etc.

 

[FonRiesen]

I came in not to debate Lemieux but to comment that you are correct. Whether or not a team scores is irrelevant in evaluating a player, as the player did not control whether or not the team performed well/poorly on the penalty kill.

The proper way is to look at average probability the team is to be scored on and leverage (probability that impacts points in standings).

@garret9 - How statistically relevant is the idea of "good" penalties (ie. Slashing or hooking to prevent a breakaway or shot towards an exposed net) vs "bad" (offensive zone penalties, or ones that did not even have positive emotional impact like defending a teammate)? As fans we talk about it often; has anyone tried evaluating it? Is it too subjective? And then of course there's the issue of whether it was "deserving" or not - we've all seen phantom calls. At what point is the value too minute vs the benefits of tracking?

Edit: Regarding Lemieux, I'm kinda confused. He's played well when I've watched him, and seems well-spoken in interviews. How much is his reputation really earned, and how much is inherited from his dad? Refs are human and know about Claude. If he really is a jerk to teammates, then he's not going to have a future here.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Edit: Regarding Lemieux, I'm kinda confused. He's played well when I've watched him, and seems well-spoken in interviews. How much is his reputation really earned, and how much is inherited from his dad? Refs are human and know about Claude. If he really is a jerk to teammates, then he's not going to have a future here.

Of course he "seems well-spoken" in interviews. He's been around the spotlight his whole life. Means nothing to me that he can talk to reporters. None of his reputation is from his dad, we saw it last year where he was getting the benefit of the doubt. Refs and coaches have gotten sick of his stuff over the 2nd half of this season clearly.

We won't ever know exactly how he is viewed in the room, but there's several people that have heard some concerning things as have posted here (much the Kane stuff). A public benching for almost an entire game by a coach is most certainly not the first step the team took with him. Teammates aren't any happier about selfish penalties (ie abuse of officials is by definition a selfish penalty, as are retaliatory penalties) than coaches in my experience.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

How can you guys allow people to post rumors about a players supposed locker room behaviour? I did the same thing when Kane was a Jet and got my hands wrapped every time I did.

I would think until it is generally reported it should be a non topic

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

How can you guys allow people to post rumors about a players supposed locker room behaviour? I did the same thing when Kane was a Jet and got my hands wrapped every time I did.

I would think until it is generally reported it should be a non topic

At least some of the rumours came from a reliable source. Although, IIRC it was hearsay. As such, I agree with you. It should be prohibited/deleted if it can't be confirmed, first hand.

 

[Holden Caulfield]

How can you guys allow people to post rumors about a players supposed locker room behaviour? I did the same thing when Kane was a Jet and got my hands wrapped every time I did.

I would think until it is generally reported it should be a non topic

Certain people have had their sources vetted by mods. If you had done that, you can post limited stuff you hear.

And him being benched because of selfish penalties was by the coach and very public. And anyone that's been around hockey knows that teammates don't respect people who take selfish penalties.

 

[garret9]

@garret9 - How statistically relevant is the idea of "good" penalties (ie. Slashing or hooking to prevent a breakaway or shot towards an exposed net) vs "bad" (offensive zone penalties, or ones that did not even have positive emotional impact like defending a teammate)? As fans we talk about it often; has anyone tried evaluating it? Is it too subjective? And then of course there's the issue of whether it was "deserving" or not - we've all seen phantom calls. At what point is the value too minute vs the benefits of tracking?

This is a complex problem, and like most complex problems, it requires a lot of computing and Type 2 thinking, but fans and even coaches tend to evaluate this more with their Type 1 brain.

So while I have no number on a value vs perceived value I would hypothesize that good/bad penalties are likely poorly evaluated, weighted, but good penalties theoretically exist. It would be any time that the expected goal from a powerplay is lower than the expected goal of the ensuing play without one... but also having to account for the loss of 2 mins in potentially creating offense (SH GF do happen but are rare).

Even analytically it would be difficult to determine as you would be looking at a lot of butterfly effects.

 

[Aavco Cup]

I guess Phillips goes tonight

 

[Channelcat]

I guess Phillips goes tonight

Can't see the tweet, but remind us if you will......what is our depth after Phillips?

 

[Aavco Cup]

Can't see the tweet, but remind us if you will......what is our depth after Phillips?

Colton Phinney will likely be recalled from Jacksonville or the Moose will have to sign someone to PTO

Colton Phinney hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com

 

[trebendan]

Colton Phinney will likely be recalled from Jacksonville or the Moose will have to sign someone to PTO

Correct, but from the Indy Fuel. I don't understand how some of these assignments work in the lower leagues - maybe at some point he was traded from Jacksonville to Indy. Anyways, he's up with the Moose now, and perhaps for quite a while.

 

[Aavco Cup]

 

[Aavco Cup]

 

[Saintb]

the Jets sure don't have much depth at center..

 

[Channelcat]

the Jets sure don't have much depth at center..

Only about twice what most teams have

 

[Saintb]

Only about twice what most teams have

I guess if they can re sign Statsny they are ok. don't see much in the pipeline though. less than on defense.

 

[Channelcat]

I guess if they can re sign Statsny they are ok. don't see much in the pipeline though. less than on defense.

Petan and Appleton in the pipeline. Roslovic will be C soon too. Ya it could be better, but look at Mtl for example. They arguably don't have a C in the entire organization. Toronto is a good team and they might have 2 legit pro C. Most teams live hand to mouth when it comes to C and D.

 

[Dayofthedogs]

4-2 for the good guys at the 2nd intermission.

Peacock had a pre recorded interview with Niku from recently that was played.

It was fun to listen too. He comes off as certainly has very likable qualities. After it was over they accidentally left the mic on for a couple secs and you could hear Niku say something like "that wasn't bad" or "that went okay"

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Peter Stoykewych has quietly put together a very solid AHL season this year.

 

[Whileee]

Peter Stoykewych has quietly put together a very solid AHL season this year.

Yup. And Lemieux with 37 points in 42 games is a nice surprise.