Managerial Thread IV

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cgf

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Rose is absolutely in a completely different tier to Favre. Already looks like one of the best coaches in the world to me. Why is winning the league that unrealistic? Bayern are great but they are absolutely not unbeatable and they have shown some significant flaws this season.

No, they (alongside Flick) are in that same tier of coaches below the Nagelsmann's of the world. Rose is more personable than the Swiss professor and prefers a more aggressive press, but he's not as strong of a tactician; his possession schemes being notably more primitive...and it's not like Plea is so much worse than Raffael was, that he could not do a lot of those things that the brazilian magician did.

Though he depends more on counters & set pieces, Rose's still good with possession. I am by no means trying to imply that he's a Kovac or Hassenhuttl...who haven't the first clue of what to do when their sides don't have space to run...just that Rose's not as intricate or creative as Favre can be and because of that, his gladbach sides haven't been able to reach quite as high of peaks as Favre's did; despite having more quality available to him.

Plus Rose's Salsburg wasn't as interesting as Favre's Nice; if we're going to judge them on what they did outside of german football.


Rose could certainly end up a better fit with BVB, but he's in the same class as Favre, and beating Bayern will continue to be an unrealistic expectation.
 
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AB13

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No, they (alongside Flick) are in that same tier of coaches below the Nagelsmann's of the world. Rose is more personable than the Swiss professor and prefers a more aggressive press, but he's not as strong of a tactician; his possession schemes being notably more primitive...and it's not like Plea is so much worse than Raffael was, that he could not do a lot of those things that the brazilian magician did.

Though he depends more on counters & set pieces, Rose's still good with possession. I am by no means trying to imply that he's a Kovac or Hassenhuttl...who haven't the first clue of what to do when their sides don't have space to run...just that Rose's not as intricate or creative as Favre can be and because of that, his gladbach sides haven't been able to reach quite as high of peaks as Favre's did; despite having more quality available to him.

Plus Rose's Salsburg wasn't as interesting as Favre's Nice; if we're going to judge them on what they did outside of german football.


Rose could certainly end up a better fit with BVB, but he's in the same class as Favre, and beating Bayern will continue to be an unrealistic expectation.
Intresting analysis, you obviously have watched those teams a lot more than me. From what I have seen, Rose is a lot better than Favre in possession, I would not call him ”more primitive”. Favre often overcomplicates things with a rigid positional structure, similar to someone like Sarri, while Rose has a more fluid attack with effective positional interchanges. But this is mostly based on a few CL games. From what I saw of Favre, he tended to discourage risk via ”keep the ball in safe areas where you don’t lose it and get countered”, while Rose isn’t like that at all, encouraging risk and creativity.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

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Rose is absolutely in a completely different tier to Favre. Already looks like one of the best coaches in the world to me. Why is winning the league that unrealistic? Bayern are great but they are absolutely not unbeatable and they have shown some significant flaws this season.

Gladbach are in 7th place now. And to be honest, yesterday, Wolfsburg to me looked like the better side. Top 4 last year was a great achievement but they're very inconsistent this year. Some pretty disappointing results in the mix. I think Rose needs to show a little more to justify such accolades.
 
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cgf

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Intresting analysis, you obviously have watched those teams a lot more than me. From what I have seen, Rose is a lot better than Favre in possession, I would not call him ”more primitive”. Favre often overcomplicates things with a rigid positional structure, similar to someone like Sarri, while Rose has a more fluid attack with effective positional interchanges. But this is mostly based on a few CL games. From what I saw of Favre, he tended to discourage risk via ”keep the ball in safe areas where you don’t lose it and get countered”, while Rose isn’t like that at all, encouraging risk and creativity.

This topic is complicated by whether we're comparing Rose's BMG to Favre's BMG, to Favre's BVB, or trying to balance a comparison with both. Because Favre had to simplify things during his Dortmund days...especially when things started to go wrong for them*...cause the talent he was working with was a lot younger (or less sophisticated in the final third), than what he had to work with while at Gladbach. Where Raffael & Kruse/Stindl allowed Favre to express more of his creativity with their greater experience than Dortmund's kids & greater creativity than Dortmund's vets.

I think Rose's BMG roster is closer in construction to Favre's BMG rosters than to the crazy-young Dortmund squads Favre was asked to challenge Bayern with; so that's what I'm focusing more on...and this BMG isn't as fluid or dynamic as they were when Favre had Raffael looking like the best player in germany; in the process making xG look absolutely foolish, week after week, season after season.

Plus I feel like you're letting the way Favre's Dortmund spell ended over-ride how good he had them looking before the wheels started coming off.

*which was a larger portion of his Dortmund tenure, because it took so much longer for him to lose touch with his players at Gladbach.
Gladbach are in 7th place now. And to be honest, yesterday, Wolfsburg to me looked like the better side. Top 4 last year was a great achievement but they're very inconsistent this year. Some pretty disappointing results in the mix. I think Rose needs to show a little more to justify such accolades.

I still feel like a lot of their inconsistency boils down to not having enough top-end depth. Every time the English weeks roll around, they either start running out of steam or lacking that little bit of quality that comes from playing too many depth players. If the 14-15 deep that they are, were the 18-20 deep that the richest german clubs have, I'd bet on them being just as consistent.

So I wouldn't hold that against Rose. He's not doing anything horribly wrong tactically, the collective is just lacking that little bit to make their game successful.
 
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Deficient Mode

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I definitely am more excited for Rose than I was at Favre's hiring and disagree that he has more primitive tactics in possession. Favre's Dortmund teams really struggled to generate chances against passive defenses that didn't give openings for counterattacks more than a team with such skill should, and Dortmund didn't use the center of the field effectively in buildup either. Of course, they also struggled with the intensity of teams as good as or better than them, and got bad results out of these as well. The base product against inferior teams was good and brought a lot of goals but I do think it lacked in some wrinkles. I don't expect the team to compete for the title in the near future because they will likely be dealing with the departures of Sancho and - before long - Haaland, but I'm hoping for a team I enjoy more, relative to the talent.
 
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Deficient Mode

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This topic is complicated by whether we're comparing Rose's BMG to Favre's BMG, to Favre's BVB, or trying to balance a comparison with both. Because Favre had to simplify things during his Dortmund days...especially when things started to go wrong for them*...cause the talent he was working with was a lot younger (or less sophisticated in the final third), than what he had to work with while at Gladbach. Where Raffael & Kruse/Stindl allowed Favre to express more of his creativity with their greater experience than Dortmund's kids & greater creativity than Dortmund's vets.

I think Rose's BMG roster is closer in construction to Favre's BMG rosters than to the crazy-young Dortmund squads Favre was asked to challenge Bayern with; so that's what I'm focusing more on...and this BMG isn't as fluid or dynamic as they were when Favre had Raffael looking like the best player in germany; in the process making xG look absolutely foolish, week after week, season after season.

Plus I feel like you're letting the way Favre's Dortmund spell ended over-ride how good he had them looking before the wheels started coming off.

*which was a larger portion of his Dortmund tenure, because it took so much longer for him to lose touch with his players at Gladbach.

With Gladbach, Nice, and Dortmund, he made xg look foolish for a couple of years, until he didn't, and was quickly dismissed. Dortmund didn't lack in clever, cerebral players over Favre's tenure - Weigl, Pulisic, Götze, Kagawa, Guerreiro, Brandt, now Reyna... - and as a whole they fared very poorly under Favre compared to other managers they've played for. He chose to focus the team around attacks from the wing and the ball dominant, slow dribbling of Sancho to the exclusion of other elements.
 

cgf

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With Gladbach, Nice, and Dortmund, he made xg look foolish for a couple of years, until he didn't, and was quickly dismissed. Dortmund didn't lack in clever, cerebral players over Favre's tenure - Weigl, Pulisic, Götze, Kagawa, Guerreiro, Brandt, now Reyna... - and as a whole they fared very poorly under Favre compared to other managers they've played for. He chose to focus the team around attacks from the wing and the ball dominant, slow dribbling of Sancho to the exclusion of other elements.
Four & a half years. He did it for 4.5 years before he lost touch with that Gladbach squad. That is a significant sample.

And doesn't that list reinforce my point? That's a lot of players who are massively inconsistent when operating in tight spaces in the box; who could not be relied upon the way Raffa and Kruse/Stindl could be. When they were clicking, he had you playing as well as Tuchel or Klopp. Then when Sancho & Brandt lost their form this season, you fell off & he had to simplify things further to try & compensate.
 

Deficient Mode

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Four & a half years. He did it for 4.5 years before he lost touch with that Gladbach squad. That is a significant sample.

And doesn't that list reinforce my point? That's a lot of players who are massively inconsistent when operating in tight spaces in the box; who could not be relied upon the way Raffa and Kruse/Stindl could be. When they were clicking, he had you playing as well as Tuchel or Klopp. Then when Sancho & Brandt lost their form this season, you fell off & he had to simplify things further to try & compensate.

Uh no. Inconsistent when operating in tight spaces doesn't come to mind with those players. He definitely never had them clicking the same way as Tuchel or Klopp in their best years. They had a handful of very lucky last minute wins the first season. The team performed badly in the Champions League. And he had a deeper, more expensive squad to work with than Tuchel and certainly Klopp. I can tell you in 2018-19 I kept expecting the floor to fall out and it eventually did.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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@cgf, do you think they could give Rene Maric the job? That would be very risky, but he's supposedly very highly rated. Rose wants to bring him to Dortmund. I suspect Gladbach won't like that.
 

cgf

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Uh no. Inconsistent when operating in tight spaces doesn't come to mind with those players. He definitely never had them clicking the same way as Tuchel or Klopp in their best years. They had a handful of very lucky last minute wins the first season. The team performed badly in the Champions League. And he had a deeper, more expensive squad to work with than Tuchel and certainly Klopp. I can tell you in 2018-19 I kept expecting the floor to fall out and it eventually did.

Who on that list wasn't inexperienced or inconsistent in the box with limited space? You listed two of the least consistent german players currently kicking, a defensive midfielder, a baby, a winger who excels in space & Raphael. Guerriero, a wingback, coming the closest to providing what Raffa & Kruse/Stindl did.

By that same token he had a thinner & poorer gladbach side than Rose, that he did just as well (I'd argue better) with.
 

Deficient Mode

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@cgf, do you think they could give Rene Maric the job? That would be very risky, but he's supposedly very highly rated. Rose wants to bring him to Dortmund. I suspect Gladbach won't like that.

I thought it was already reported confidently that Maric would be following Rose to Dortmund.

Who on that list wasn't inexperienced or inconsistent in the box with limited space? You listed two of the least consistent german players currently kicking, a defensive midfielder, a baby, a winger who excels in space & Raphael. Guerriero, a wingback, coming the closest to providing what Raffa & Kruse/Stindl did.

By that same token he had a thinner & poorer gladbach side than Rose, that he did just as well (I'd argue better) with.

I guess we're not talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about just being clever in the box. I mean that they seriously underused the center of the field in the attacking half. Everything was forced to the wings early in buildup all the time. Those players were all central players who could've facilitated this and thrived at it under past managers.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich

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I thought it was already reported confidently that Maric would be following Rose to Dortmund.

I think the report said Rose wanted to bring his assistants to Dortmund. I'm not sure it gave a likelihood of it happening. I suspect that's up to the individual coach when changes are made, and Gladbach can't say that he has a valid contract with them. Maybe they can though. I'm not exactly sure.
 

cgf

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@cgf, do you think they could give Rene Maric the job? That would be very risky, but he's supposedly very highly rated. Rose wants to bring him to Dortmund. I suspect Gladbach won't like that.

Only read about ten Haag, Kohfeldt, Hütter & Marsch.

Hütter would be interesting if they can imbue his pressing with the gladbach possession ethos...kinda like what happened with Rose; whose Salzburg often stagnated when they didn't have space to run into. But that Gladbach DNA worked its way into his possession schemes once he arrived on the rhine.

Kohfeldt & Marsh have potential too and seem to do well with young talent; so I'm not really dreading any of these names like I was the Hecking hire.

Haven't watched Ajax nearly enough to have an opinion about ten Haag, hopefully he's more than another Bosz if it ends up being him.
 

cgf

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I thought it was already reported confidently that Maric would be following Rose to Dortmund.



I guess we're not talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about just being clever in the box. I mean that they seriously underused the center of the field in the attacking half. Everything was forced to the wings early in buildup all the time. Those players were all central players who could've facilitated this and thrived at it under past managers.
I'm not trying to absolve Favre of blame for things not working as well in Dortmund as they did for him in Gladbach. Initially, all I was trying to say was that Rose's BMG squad has been more similar to Favre's BMG rosters than the ones he had with y'all; as an explanation for why I was comparing his work at Gladbach with his Favre's work with Gladbach rather than Lucien's work with BVB.

But since we're here now; my most recent point was simply that a huge part of Favre's success with BMG was built around the subtle elegance that Raffael & Kruse/Stindl brought in the final third, regardless of how many legs they had to weave through to finish gladbach's attacking motions. It's a failing of Favre's to not adapt successfully to the talent at Dortmund, but I can see where the differences in the roster caused a shift in his tactics/schemes away from what had been successful for him when he had Raffa to pair with a similarly crafty forward.
 

Savi

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Dutchies - whats your opinion on John vd Brom? Is he highly regarded in Holland? He made a mess of Anderlecht near the end of his stay there, now he's going the same route at Genk. Took over in November and they were in first place, now only a couple of months later they're 17 points behind Brugge who still have a game in hand. They've gone from a fun, young team to playing terrible football and barely creating anything.

Someone to keep on eye on though is Oostende manager Alexander Blessin from Germany. First season as a head coach after spending the last 10 years or so managing RB Leipzig youth teams.
Has Oostende playing fantastic football, with a very mediocre roster. After beating Genk tonight 3-1, they are now in 4th place which would see them make the Championship playoffs. And they have the easiest schedule left. Would be sensational to make the playoffs with those players.
Think he'll get plenty of looks from Bundesliga clubs after the season.
 
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cgf

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[snip]Someone to keep on eye on though is Oostende manager Alexander Blessin from Germany. First season as a head coach after spending the last 10 years or so managing RB Leipzig youth teams.
Has Oostende playing fantastic football, with a very mediocre roster. After beating Genk tonight 3-1, they are now in 4th place which would see them make the Championship playoffs. And they have the easiest schedule left. Would be sensational to make the playoffs with those players.
Think he'll get plenty of looks from Bundesliga clubs after the season.
That's awesome to hear, one of my buddies had some courses with him while working on his own coaching certification and had nothing but good things to say.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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Bild saying that a lot at Gladbach are mad at the Rose situation, and he could get sacked before the season ends.

I hope that happens, and Dortmund can appoint him early because Terzic might be the worst manager in the league right now.
 

AB13

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Some speculation that Henry will leave Montreal to take the Bournemouth job
That is actually huge for both manager and club. He's not gonna do well there at all, I hope he doesn't relegate them. Love the guy but he's a bad coach. I just like Thierry so I have a complete lack of annoyance of him getting a huge job on no merit at all - which is infuriating even at clubs you don't care about.
 

Evilo

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He needs to have quality players first before saying he isn't a good coach.
Not saying he will be a good one I have no idea. But his tactical ideas are very interesting. Like Xavi's.
 
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