Managerial merry Go round part III

[Evilo]

Give me France 82 or 86 over France 98.
Every day and twice on sunday.

 

[Juve]

There aren’t enough arrows to illustrate how much winning > attractive football. I’ll worry about other teams entertaining me. I enjoy if my team entertains fans around the work, but winning comes far before that.

Even Carlos Alberto Pereira in 1994 had to convince the Brazilian people that his “F&$@ joga bonito” mentality would net better and more satisfactory results.

Juventus changed its logo to start a bigger brand and splashed the cash for one of football's biggest superstars. What's the purpose if you plan on playing the worst type of football? Would you cheer for Juventus playing that style if you are new and clueless to the sport? It does not attract new fans. It's horrifying to watch, I had to drink a little to make most games somewhat enjoyable this season.

For obvious reasons, if my team won a trophy playing ugly, rubbish, boring football, I wouldn't care the least (for starters because in the mid-90s and early 00s they won lots of kind words from fans of other clubs for entertaining whilst not winning anything that after a while felt incredibly patronising).

But if my club had a stupefying amount of money, and had previously won loads, and had an outlandish budget, and they were playing ugly, rubbish, boring football, I'd propose the manager be fired into the sun. Because we know teams can play football and win big. Just as - and this cannot be emphasised enough - teams that play utterly abysmal football don't win all the time.

We're told grotesque financial inequality is fine in European football because 'everyone wants to watch the big clubs'. But if all the 'big clubs' want to do is play like Bolton Wanderers circa 2004, why do they need a budget of eleventy trillion euros to do it?

In any scenario where millionaires and billionaires encourage fans to pay more money and in return accept less variety and quality, fans ought to pelt them with rotten fruit, or worse. And when negative coaches who say, 'Results are everything' lose, we should point and laugh, and tell them, 'By your own definition you are nothing. So **** off, and don't come back until you're more worthy of the world's time and interest than drying paint.'

Beautifully said!!!!

 

[koyvoo]

Not everyone has the luxury of cheering for one of the richest clubs or one of the deepest most talented national sides.

And even then, sometimes for a myriad of reasons things just don’t result in a title. Take Liverpool for example. Should their fans, who haven’t witnessed a league title in over 25 years care more about playing attractive football, or winning the league in whatever fashion?

And what of the triple champion Spain juggernaut who played some of the most boring, negative possession based football imaginable. This is a nation who before their triumphs were almost a running joke at not being able to win a thing despite always having an embarrassment of riches in talent. Even though the narrative is that Tika-Taka (Spain’s, not Barcelona’s) is attractive, it most definitely was not. Sure, they had the ball at their feet but nothing with it. Should their fans be embarrassed that a pragmatic approach finally gave them the joy that only comes through witnessing championships?

 

[Deficient Mode]

Madrid's manager next season? My guess would be Pochettino. My hope would be Mourinho.

The Telegraph at least says it's going to be Mou lol.

 

[Live in the Now]

Not everyone has the luxury of cheering for one of the richest clubs or one of the deepest most talented national sides.

And even then, sometimes for a myriad of reasons things just don’t result in a title. Take Liverpool for example. Should their fans, who haven’t witnessed a league title in over 25 years care more about playing attractive football, or winning the league in whatever fashion?

The only two times (now third) Liverpool came close recently were when they played great football. The two go hand in hand.

 

[Chimaera]

The only two times (now third) Liverpool came close recently were when they played great football. The two go hand in hand.

I guess. It certainly didn’t hurt that they had a ridiculous footballer or two.

I do think there’s a point to be made that Liverpool supporters wouldn’t go for someone playing awful negative football. They’ll tolerate defense, and they’ve played tactically in the past, but as a club, sitting back and playing rubbish football is not what they stand for. I know I would take a title no matter how it came, but it would bother me and most if they had to do it the Jose way to get it.

Maybe some other supporters feel differently, but I think at their core, many Liverpool supporters, much like Barca or Brazil supporters want to see a certain style. It doesn’t hurt that they have had past glory doing that. (Though it’s obviously been a while for Liverpool)

 

[Stray Wasp]

The only two times (now third) Liverpool came close recently were when they played great football. The two go hand in hand.

I'm old enough to remember the 87/88 Liverpool, which won the old Division One by a street and played beautiful football.

 

[koyvoo]

The only two times (now third) Liverpool came close recently were when they played great football. The two go hand in hand.

And if they don’t win the title this time like they didn’t those times, you’d feel the same sense of joy because they played aesthetically pleasing football compared to the joy you’d feel at securing a title by a more pragmatic approach?

 

[Live in the Now]

And if they don’t win the title this time like they didn’t those times, you’d feel the same sense of joy because they played aesthetically pleasing football compared to the joy you’d feel at securing a title by a more pragmatic approach?

They'd come nowhere near the title by playing more pragmatically though.

The two go hand in hand.

 

[koyvoo]

They'd come nowhere near the title by playing more pragmatically though.

The two go hand in hand.

There’s no way to know either way. But again, I’m asking in pure hypothetical terms. Which would bring a fan more joy.

But fine, use the following as an example.

Take the Portugal national team. They lifted the trophy at the end of the last Euro tournament with a less than pretty style of play for the most part.

In contrast, from 2000-2006, they were considered amongst the most technically gifted and artistic sides. And to speak of their talent, they did achieve 3 semi finals, including a final in 4 tournaments in that time frame. I’ll bet you can ask a fans of the Portuguese team from now until the end of time and you won’t find find one who will tell you they’d prefer the outcomes of 2000-2006 as opposed to the joy felt in 2016, regardless of the praise they received in the era of the golden generation compared to the negative press they received in 2016. Winning trumps all. I just think that certain people here have become to accustomed to titles coming to easily, or conversely haven’t won enough to know the sheer joy that comes from winning.

 

[Deficient Mode]

There’s no way to know either way. But again, I’m asking in pure hypothetical terms. Which would bring a fan more joy.

But fine, use the following as an example.

Take the Portugal national team. They lifted the trophy at the end of the last Euro tournament with a less than pretty style of play for the most part.

In contrast, from 2000-2006, they were considered amongst the most technically gifted and artistic sides. And to speak of their talent, they did achieve 3 semi finals, including a final in 4 tournaments in that time frame. I’ll bet you can ask a fans of the Portuguese team from now until the end of time and you won’t find find one who will tell you they’d prefer the outcomes of 2000-2006 as opposed to the joy felt in 2016, regardless of the praise they received in the era of the golden generation compared to the negative press they received in 2016. Winning trumps all. I just think that certain people here have become to accustomed to titles coming to easily, or conversely haven’t won enough to know the sheer joy that comes from winning.

Short knockout tournaments are far more random than club football. Managers are less familiar with their players and players are less familiar with their teammates. The team has less time to figure out how to work together in a competitive environment. Teams that play safely tend to do much better as a result, as less coordinated offenses don't break down buses as well.

In league play, there is a very strong relationship between scoring a lot of goals and (1) being fun to watch - fans enjoy goals - and (2) success: the point system favors teams that go for a result rather than a draw, and scoring goals is how the best teams set themselves apart when defense is the default. A team like Atletico is the exception.

 

[Chimaera]

On topic, I guess Ole has to get the job now. Though they would be wise to wait until the summer and at least see what’s out there. Feel good or not

 

[les Habs]

On topic, I guess Ole has to get the job now. Though they would be wise to wait until the summer and at least see what’s out there. Feel good or not

Wise? That would be stupid. It's highly unlikely there is going to be a better option for United at this point time on top of the fact that Solskjaer clearly has the players playing for him and bought in. Waiting until the Summer is a horrible suggestion.

 

[Chimaera]

I don’t agree. What’s the rush? He obviously wants the job. He’s the interim for a reason. He wasn’t great at Cardiff and there’s a chance he reverts to the mean at some point. If you’re United, you owe it to the club to make an exhaustive search. I guess you could do some of that prior to the summer, but I don’t think you have to rush it.

 

[Gecklund]

I think we absolutely need to make OGS full time ASAP. A lot of our biggest players have backed him including Rashford, Lingard, Lukaku, Pogba, and Lindelof. My biggest worry though is transfers. I don’t know how OGS would do transfer wise and I sure as hell don’t trust Ed.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

 

[YNWA14]

And if they don’t win the title this time like they didn’t those times, you’d feel the same sense of joy because they played aesthetically pleasing football compared to the joy you’d feel at securing a title by a more pragmatic approach?

For what it's worth Liverpool have definitely, at times, been much more pragmatic this season. Possibly to their detriment while ahead.

 

[East Coast Bias]

Soleskaer is 17 games with 14 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss. The 1 loss being PSG at home, which didn't matter in the end funny enough.

I've seen a whole lot on xG and underlying statistics today. Of course he's going to regress to the mean.

He's come in mid season, with I think one international break to take the team away training so far, and had a hell of a fixture list. Everything has been on the fly.

For me, the decision comes down to:

1) Who is available - there isn't anyone who appears to be available that blows me away. I think getting Poch to another PL club is going to be hard and bloody.

2) Him - tactically he's been solid. He's done a great job managing what can be a circus at times. It's not an easy job. He's gotten the best out of nearly all the players. I'm impressed with his emotional intelligence as well.

I don't know if i see another valid contender at this point.

 

[The Abusement Park]

The only person I’d take over OGS(that’s available) would be Blanc probably. But I have a huge hard on for Blanc as a manager so.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Rumblings here of Solari getting the door and Mourinho being hired, and it could be inminent

 

[The Abusement Park]

Rumblings here of Solari getting the door and Mourinho being hired, and it could be inminent

 

[Stray Wasp]

Winning trumps all. I just think that certain people here have become to accustomed to titles coming to easily, or conversely haven’t won enough to know the sheer joy that comes from winning.

Maybe. But by the logic of 'winning trumps all', after Milan thumped Ajax in the 1969 European Cup final, shouldn't the Dutch have copied the Italians' method in pursuit of the big prize instead of sticking with that Total Football lark?

After Barcelona lost the 1986 European Cup final to a defensive Steaua Bucharest, leaving them still awaiting their first victory in that competition, shouldn't they have mimicked the Rumanians rather than turning to Johan Cruyff?

Mourinho's Inter defeated Guardiola's Barca in 2010 and lifted the Champions League. Winning trumps all, so Mourinho was right and Guardiola was wrong, and Real Madrid made their next managerial appointment accordingly. The rest is history, and a significant proportion of it is history that Jose Mourinho would prefer to erase from the books.

I don't know about winning big prizes, but I've seen Newcastle United win promotion three times - twice with teams that were functional, once with a team that played with panache. Sure enough, the latter is the victory I cherish the most - not least because it proved the platform for greater times afterward.

I was having a conversation with a Portsmouth fan recently about their League One promotion fight. They are a club too big for that division, they have a wealthy backer, and in Kenny Jackett they have a manager who has won promotion at that level before. And right now they are 10 points off league leaders Luton, despite the Hatters having only been promoted from League Two a year ago and having lost their manager to a Championship club mid-season. The difference between the two clubs, the Portsmouth fan attested, was that whereas Pompey were playing to get out of the division, Luton were playing football.

Again, by conventional wisdom Luton, being the smaller, poorer club, shouldn't be doing that. Or, rather, they should be suffering the penalty of failure for not playing the smart odds. However, maybe Portsmouth's trouble is that they are trying to be the best at playing a tune that's familiar to their opponents, while Luton's divergence from the script poses other teams challenges they're less well prepared for.

In truth, there's an element of self-fulfilling prophecy about the whole debate. If everybody plays percentage football, then a tournament's eventual winner cannot but be a percentage-playing team.

It's like when pundits or coaches blather on about 'set pieces are so important X% of goals come from there'. If everybody adopts the philosophy of keeping it tight in open play and waiting for set pieces to plunder a goal, naturally the proportion of goals from set pieces will rise.

Coaches are adept enough at feeding fans reasons why we shouldn't expect too much from football without us getting excuses in on their behalf. Winning with style trumps all.

 

[maclean]

Not entirely happy about this. Don't really think he was the problem and have little faith in someone like Ranieri

 

[Burner Account]

 

[les Habs]

I don’t agree. What’s the rush? He obviously wants the job. He’s the interim for a reason. He wasn’t great at Cardiff and there’s a chance he reverts to the mean at some point. If you’re United, you owe it to the club to make an exhaustive search. I guess you could do some of that prior to the summer, but I don’t think you have to rush it.

And exactly who are you going to turn up that will be a better a candidate? In the mean time you put the players off, the supporters off and Solskjaer even (though he seems pretty affable no matter what). The chances of them finding a better manager this Summer are very slim. If I'm United I don't throw the bank at Pochettino over Solskjaer.

Maybe. But by the logic of 'winning trumps all', after Milan thumped Ajax in the 1969 European Cup final, shouldn't the Dutch have copied the Italians' method in pursuit of the big prize instead of sticking with that Total Football lark?

After Barcelona lost the 1986 European Cup final to a defensive Steaua Bucharest, leaving them still awaiting their first victory in that competition, shouldn't they have mimicked the Rumanians rather than turning to Johan Cruyff?

Mourinho's Inter defeated Guardiola's Barca in 2010 and lifted the Champions League. Winning trumps all, so Mourinho was right and Guardiola was wrong, and Real Madrid made their next managerial appointment accordingly. The rest is history, and a significant proportion of it is history that Jose Mourinho would prefer to erase from the books.

I don't know about winning big prizes, but I've seen Newcastle United win promotion three times - twice with teams that were functional, once with a team that played with panache. Sure enough, the latter is the victory I cherish the most - not least because it proved the platform for greater times afterward.

I was having a conversation with a Portsmouth fan recently about their League One promotion fight. They are a club too big for that division, they have a wealthy backer, and in Kenny Jackett they have a manager who has won promotion at that level before. And right now they are 10 points off league leaders Luton, despite the Hatters having only been promoted from League Two a year ago and having lost their manager to a Championship club mid-season. The difference between the two clubs, the Portsmouth fan attested, was that whereas Pompey were playing to get out of the division, Luton were playing football.

Again, by conventional wisdom Luton, being the smaller, poorer club, shouldn't be doing that. Or, rather, they should be suffering the penalty of failure for not playing the smart odds. However, maybe Portsmouth's trouble is that they are trying to be the best at playing a tune that's familiar to their opponents, while Luton's divergence from the script poses other teams challenges they're less well prepared for.

In truth, there's an element of self-fulfilling prophecy about the whole debate. If everybody plays percentage football, then a tournament's eventual winner cannot but be a percentage-playing team.

It's like when pundits or coaches blather on about 'set pieces are so important X% of goals come from there'. If everybody adopts the philosophy of keeping it tight in open play and waiting for set pieces to plunder a goal, naturally the proportion of goals from set pieces will rise.

Coaches are adept enough at feeding fans reasons why we shouldn't expect too much from football without us getting excuses in on their behalf. Winning with style trumps all.

Amen.