Managerial merry go round part II

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Watzke being selfish. Its going to make the team worse, but apparently that doesn't matter to him.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Managerial savant Tony Adams

I think that criticism was a little unfair since Tony Adams was specifically talking about the on-the-training-pitch coaching (which is only a secondary thing and minor element for a manager) when he ripped Wenger. And he didn't say Wenger was a bad manager for not being good at it, he was annoyed that Wenger didn't shore up the defensive coaching staff.

Now I don't know how good a coach Tony Adams is but it would have very little to do with his *managerial* record. If I had to guess, I'd say Tony Adams is probably pretty good at it. And Tony Adams would probably be more qualified to judge Wenger's skills in this particular area than most of the pundits and observers mocking Adams for it (he played for Wenger, they didn't).

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Watzke being selfish. Its going to make the team worse, but apparently that doesn't matter to him.

If the club has to specifically point out in a press release that they didn't fire the manager because he didn't get along with club executives then they probably fired him because he didn't get along with club executives.

Watzke's letter more or less confirmed that. If Tuchel had done anything really wrong, you know the club would have already leaked it. To me it all looks like Watzke felt Tuchel didn't sufficiently cover for Watzke and Co.'s actions. Tuchel allowed the stories to circulate that some players were sold and some bought without his view given much consideration - Watzke inteprets it as Tuchel being disloyal. Tuchel criticized the Monaco re-scheduling, which everyone knew Watzke had to have agreed with, and Watzke's view of Tuchel as disloyal is further cemented.

Watzke may think that a manager reliably going along with the internally agreed upon party line is a professional requirement of the job. So maybe he thinks it isn't personal. But the reality is that a manager who covers for mistakes by the club leadership is screwed in the end either way. He's always the scapegoat anyway, so you can see why Tuchel didn't play footsoldier for Watzke.

 

[Edo]

Plenty of other clubs do a much better job in the transfer market with a lot less money to burn than Arsenal have.

Wenger's just really good at finding excuses for continuing to be such a loser.

So every German club besides Bayern Munich is a massive failure?

 

[jniklast]

If the club has to specifically point out in a press release that they didn't fire the manager because he didn't get along with club executives then they probably fired him because he didn't get along with club executives.

Watzke's letter more or less confirmed that. If Tuchel had done anything really wrong, you know the club would have already leaked it. To me it all looks like Watzke felt Tuchel didn't sufficiently cover for Watzke and Co.'s actions. Tuchel allowed the stories to circulate that some players were sold and some bought without his view given much consideration - Watzke inteprets it as Tuchel being disloyal. Tuchel criticized the Monaco re-scheduling, which everyone knew Watzke had to have agreed with, and Watzke's view of Tuchel as disloyal is further cemented.

Watzke may think that a manager reliably going along with the internally agreed upon party line is a professional requirement of the job. So maybe he thinks it isn't personal. But the reality is that a manager who covers for mistakes by the club leadership is screwed in the end either way. He's always the scapegoat anyway, so you can see why Tuchel didn't play footsoldier for Watzke.

It has become pretty obvious, that it is not just Watzke having problems with Tuchel but the latter having difficulties with many in the club. I mean he apparently hasn't talked to the chief scout for one and a half year, many of the players quite obviously don't like him and more such things.

 

[Deficient Mode]

It has become pretty obvious, that it is not just Watzke having problems with Tuchel but the latter having difficulties with many in the club. I mean he apparently hasn't talked to the chief scout for one and a half year, many of the players quite obviously don't like him and more such things.

Didn't this happen at the end of Klopp's tenure? He allegedly lost the players? I think that the players all liking their manager is overrated. And it was very obvious that some key players - especially Dembele, probably the most important player to Dortmund's next season (or two) - liked Tuchel a lot. With Auba and Tuchel gone, I could easily imagine a drama-filled next year for Dembele that culminates in him leaving.

Watzke talks about trust and communication, but he breaks his public promise to Tuchel that Hummels, Mkhi, and Gündogan would not all be sold. Tuchel seems like a difficult man, and he played his part in his own firing, but the players still liked and trusted him enough to follow his plans. Both of his years in Dortmund were a big success to me, and the team was more fun to watch than ever. It would be hilarious if he went to Leverkusen and they finished above Dortmund in the table too. And Kovac is apparently one of the main alternate candidates to Favre. Have the club's management lost their minds?

 

[Live in the Now]

If two managers lose the players, the manager is not the problem.

It's either the players or somebody upstairs planting thoughts in somebody's head.

 

[Deficient Mode]

If two managers lose the players, the manager is not the problem.

It's either the players or somebody upstairs planting thoughts in somebody's head.

To be fair, Tuchel had a somewhat acrimonious exit from Mainz as well. But if the gossip from insiders or so-called insiders that I've seen is accurate and the players would have quit on Tuchel or left the club if he weren't fired, it really makes me wonder about the players as well. What kind of manager would they be happy with? Because the average traditional German manager is probably more grouchy and difficult than Tuchel, and far less fun to play for and learn from. Still, there's a lot we don't know about what happened in the locker room, so it's hard to say.

 

[jniklast]

Klopp stayed for 7 years and I don't think his end is even remotely similar - despite his comments that either he had to go or half the team would have to change.

Of course to every conflict there are two parties and it's usually not just one to blame, but when Tuchel has problems with so many people in the club, then apparently he is a problem. I really don't get how you can think that he was fired simply because Watzke didn't like him.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Klopp stayed for 7 years and I don't think his end is even remotely similar - despite his comments that either he had to go or half the team would have to change.

Of course to every conflict there are two parties and it's usually not just one to blame, but when Tuchel has problems with so many people in the club, then apparently he is a problem. I really don't get how you can think that he was fired simply because Watzke didn't like him.

Who is telling us that so many people in the club didn't like him? Is it Watzke talking to journalists? Most players haven't spoken out one way or the other, and probably never will. I'm very skeptical of claims that most of the players are unhappy with him. The scouting staff is very important to the club, but Tuchel had little influence on any transfers or scouting anyway. Klopp probably only had a small influence before him as well.

 

[jniklast]

Who is telling us that so many people in the club didn't like him? Is it Watzke talking to journalists? Most players haven't spoken out one way or the other, and probably never will. I'm very skeptical of claims that most of the players are unhappy with him. The scouting staff is very important to the club, but Tuchel had little influence on any transfers or scouting anyway. Klopp probably only had a small influence before him as well.

Not just Watzke but pretty much any article (SZ, kicker, SpOn etc) about Tuchel in the last weeks mentions multiple internal conflicts with him.
I mean do you really think that Tuchel was just fired because Watzke didn't like him (due to his comments about the Monaco rescheduling or whatever) and all the other important person in the club (Zorc, Rauball, the supervisory board) just went along with no objection?

 

[Deficient Mode]

Not just Watzke but pretty much any article (SZ, kicker, SpOn etc) about Tuchel in the last weeks mentions multiple internal conflicts with him.
I mean do you really think that Tuchel was just fired because Watzke didn't like him (due to his comments about the Monaco rescheduling or whatever) and all the other important person in the club (Zorc, Rauball, the supervisory board) just went along with no objection?

So, those are journalists who get their information from Watzke or had an anti-Tuchel agenda all along?

Zorc is quiet and never has much to say about any conflict. Rauball is even more removed from things that happen in the team than Watzke is. Ditto with the supervisory board. How tf are they supposed to know if he has lost the players? The strife with the scouting staff is real, but the story has been far too one-sided. Unfortunately with Tuchel out the damage has already been done and more details leaking will only mean more drama.

 

[jniklast]

So, those are journalists who get their information from Watzke or had an anti-Tuchel agenda all along?

Zorc is quiet and never has much to say about any conflict. Rauball is even more removed from things that happen in the team than Watzke is. Ditto with the supervisory board. How tf are they supposed to know if he has lost the players? The strife with the scouting staff is real, but the story has been far too one-sided. Unfortunately with Tuchel out the damage has already been done and more details leaking will only mean more drama.

So Watzke has pretty much all journalists controlled?
Tuchel was undoubtedly successful, so I can't imagine nobody asking if Watzke suddenly wants to fire him. You can believe that they went along because they also think it's the only way to go - after all it's Zorc's job on the line in the end as well if the next manager flops. And of course there is a risk, Tuchel was good when considering the footballing aspect only.

 

[Deficient Mode]

So Watzke has pretty much all journalists controlled?
Tuchel was undoubtedly successful, so I can't imagine nobody asking if Watzke suddenly wants to fire him. You can believe that they went along because they also think it's the only way to go - after all it's Zorc's job on the line in the end as well if the next manager flops. And of course there is a risk, Tuchel was good when considering the footballing aspect only.

Well Tuchel certainly isn't talking to journalists. And for the most part the players don't, either. Kicker and Süddeutsche Zeitung are the biggest Watzke mouthpieces, and both ran long anti-Tuchel campaigns that date back many months. Why would Zorc's job be on the line, exactly? He'd be the last guy I'd fire along with the scouting staff.

 

[jniklast]

Well Tuchel certainly isn't talking to journalists. And for the most part the players don't, either. Kicker and Süddeutsche Zeitung are the biggest Watzke mouthpieces, and both ran long anti-Tuchel campaigns that date back many months. Why would Zorc's job be on the line, exactly? He'd be the last guy I'd fire along with the scouting staff.

Well, if you are convinced that all that Tuchel did was not getting along with Watzke, nothing will change your opinion I guess.

And of course Zorc's job would be on the line, he was pretty close to getting fired right before Klopp came.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Well, if you are convinced that all that Tuchel did was not getting along with Watzke, nothing will change your opinion I guess.

I never said that. Actually, I said the conflict with Mislintat was real. The difficulties with the players was probably real as well, but we'll never know how, because all these stories have been given an anti-Tuchel spin.

And of course Zorc's job would be on the line, he was pretty close to getting fired right before Klopp came.

Before Klopp came? So 9 years ago?

 

[jniklast]

I never said that. Actually, I said the conflict with Mislintat was real. The difficulties with the players was probably real as well, but we'll never know how, because all these stories have been given an anti-Tuchel spin.



Before Klopp came? So 9 years ago?

So there have been multiple documented conflicts with Tuchel and other persons in the club. That alone shows me that there were legitimate reasons to end it and I trust Watzke with that - after all he has done more than enough for the club since 2005.

Yes 9 years ago, because they did not have success. But what do you think happens if the new manager(s) miss the CL twice in a row? There will be a lot of questions asked.

 

[Deficient Mode]

So there have been multiple documented conflicts with Tuchel and other persons in the club. That alone shows me that there were legitimate reasons to end it and I trust Watzke with that - after all he has done more than enough for the club since 2005.

Not to me. Those people can wait another year until Tuchel is out - especially the non-player personnel. Look at how Bayern - a club I never hoped would have less drama than BVB - handled Guardiola's conflict with the team doctor and allegedly with some players, or how they'll apparently handle the cases of Kimmich and other players who are unhappy with playing time under Ancelotti. They'll hold onto the players who will outlast the manager without undermining the manager in the short-term. They didn't force Guardiola out, and if they force Ancelotti out, it will probably be due to his failures on the field than off.

Yes 9 years ago, because they did not have success. But what do you think happens if the new manager(s) miss the CL twice in a row? There will be a lot of questions asked.

Asked of Zorc? Not as I see his role in the club.

 

[jniklast]

Not to me. Those people can wait another year until Tuchel is out - especially the non-player personnel. Look at how Bayern - a club I never hoped would have less drama than BVB - handled Guardiola's conflict with the team doctor and allegedly with some players, or how they'll apparently handle the cases of Kimmich and other players who are unhappy with playing time under Ancelotti. They'll hold onto the players who will outlast the manager without undermining the manager in the short-term. They didn't force Guardiola out, and if they force Ancelotti out, it will probably be due to his failures on the field than off.



Asked of Zorc? Not as I see his role in the club.

I didn't read about many problems that Guardiola had apart from the conflict with the team doctor. Maybe they simply better managed to keep it quiet, but I don't think it compares to this situation.

 

[Deficient Mode]

I didn't read about many problems that Guardiola had apart from the conflict with the team doctor. Maybe they simply better managed to keep it quiet, but I don't think it compares to this situation.

Kicker had the same kind of reports of anonymous players being unhappy with him, as I recall. Not just over playing time either. Though that is probably a large factor in Dortmund player unrest, too.

 

[Deficient Mode]

 

[PeteWorrell]

To the surprise of no one.Must be sweet making 10 million a year not winning anything except for the FA Cup.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Kicker released an article in which they named Favre the main candidate as Tuchel's successor - no surprise there - and said that Stöger and Bosz are the alternatives. Bosz would be amazing; Stöger not so much. A decision won't be made until next week at the earliest. Tuchel and Klopp before him were super obvious choices; let's see if Dortmund's management are competent at all at choosing a coach when there isn't a super obvious candidate. The inclusion of names like Stöger and Kovac doesn't leave me optimistic.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

It has become pretty obvious, that it is not just Watzke having problems with Tuchel but the latter having difficulties with many in the club. I mean he apparently hasn't talked to the chief scout for one and a half year, many of the players quite obviously don't like him and more such things.

I don't think Tuchel is there to be friends with people. I don't know the exact specifics of what went on between Tuchel and others at the club, neither do you or the reporters who spread those rumors. People don't always get along, people have different views, different personalities.

Do I think Tuchel is a likeable guy? Not from what I've seen. My first impression is that he's cold, brooding and not always straight forward. But for one, I could be wrong. Perhaps it's a question of getting to know him the right way, who knows. From my own life experience, I've noted that the type of people who aren't everyone's best friends at first sight might not get the opportunities they deserve - even though they might be able to do outstanding things for the team. In fact, there seems to be even more suspicion if they're quite clearly highly intelligent and competent.

Successful leadership includes engaging with such 'difficult' but high-achieving people and making use of their great talents. I'd rather deal with someone like that than some nice chap who's clueless and can't get the job done.

Many legendary managers were known to be 'difficult' and made plenty of enemies at all their clubs even though they were hugely successful. Louis Van Gaal is a well-known example, Jose Mourinho another one. Or going back further, Brian Clough. There's many more. Successful managers are extremely driven, confident people. They often are the smartest guy in a room full of people who instinctively dislike the smartest guy in the room - especially if he seems to know it. Only a truly mediocre manager is loved by all players and all club officials. Good managers aren't every player's mate or "Yesmen" for the club's executives. Even Klopp had players go against him - in spite of Klopp being a very enthusiastic and affable character. Why? Because Klopp had to make decisions that negatively affected the careers of some players. That's part of the gig.

What I see here is a failure of leadership on Watzke's part. Tuchel 'worked out' on the pitch - where it matters. But they chose the 'easy' way out by getting rid of a 'difficult, disliked character'. It's highly unlikely they will be able to replace him with a manager meeting all their requirements.

 

[jniklast]

That might all be true, but as in any job, it is of no help if the people working together do not get along well. It can work for a while (and it did), but I don't think it is a good strategy long-term. After all all those people have to work together to be successful. And if multiple persons in different positions in the club (chief scout, players, CEO) do not get along with someone, does it really make sense to go on and on?
Of course there is a risk, that his successor will be worse and as with any other decision it will be judged by the results, but from all accounts there were legitimate reasons to let Tuchel go.