Management Thread...less Jack Burton.

[UK Canuck]

K.......massive difference between the words "potential" and "projection"

well.....until said players actually do it in the NHL, everything is potential and projection, but these projections aren't just picked out of thin air and random

 

[Dana Murzyn]

Here's how I comfort myself in the dark hours: no matter how badly Benning messes this team up, and even if it takes another 3 years before he finally gets sacked, when his reign is over we'll still have a franchise centre and a franchise defenceman who are under 25. That's a spectacular starting point for a proper rebuild.

 

[VancouverJagger]

well.....until said players actually do it in the NHL, everything is potential and projection, but these projections aren't just picked out of thin air and random

Once again you are using the word "projection" - I'm not sure you are getting what I'm saying. You said/insinuated that Tyler Madden was a borderline first line projection. That's very, very different then saying that Tyler Madden has first line potential. 2 totally different metrics.......

Your statement reads that we expect him to become a first line player when the actual reality is that he has a relatively small chance of actually doing so.

 

[Hit the post]

If anyone is curious, you can estimate the probability that a given draft position nets you an NHL player with this formula: LN(draftposition) * -.166 + 0.95

Really works quite well.

Didn't I copy off you in 1st year calculus? I failed that course.

 

[vanuck]

If anyone is curious, you can estimate the probability that a given draft position nets you an NHL player with this formula: LN(draftposition) * -.166 + 0.95

Really works quite well.

Where does this formula come from? Your research?

 

[Melvin]

Where does this formula come from? Your research?

Yes.

 

[VanillaCoke]

I use that formula to build my fantasy teams, works quite well

 

[bbud]

Once again you are using the word "projection" - I'm not sure you are getting what I'm saying. You said/insinuated that Tyler Madden was a borderline first line projection. That's very, very different then saying that Tyler Madden has first line potential. 2 totally different metrics.......

Your statement reads that we expect him to become a first line player when the actual reality is that he has a relatively small chance of actually doing so.

The reality is he's small and unless he has exceptional speed hands and awareness he isn't going to be a 1st line guy in the NHL seems like he is a hard working kid but pro hockey is no where near college prospects here get so over or under rated often very wrongly.

 

[timw33]

he's small and unless he has exceptional speed hands and awareness

He has those things.

 

[F A N]

Here's how I comfort myself in the dark hours: no matter how badly Benning messes this team up, and even if it takes another 3 years before he finally gets sacked, when his reign is over we'll still have a franchise centre and a franchise defenceman who are under 25. That's a spectacular starting point for a proper rebuild.

This reflects what I said at the time Benning was hired. If Benning can deliver at the draft table then it's going to go a long way to helping the Canucks become contenders. Of course Benning haters would tell you that he set the franchise back for years.

 

[bbud]

He has those things.

At the collegiate level yes but at pro level it's a totally different world not to say he can't but odds are maybe 50/50 that's true of A majority of prospects as well just to succeed as pro players somewhere and it even tougher to be an NHL impact player by far.

 

[MS]

I made a direct quote of a poster who, without fail, will bring up his weight to denigrate him now that he is no longer in our system despite no one actually being that concerned about him before the trade given his high end skill shining through.

It's just unabashed spin at this point and it's just so transparent—it's like a switch has flipped.

It's absolutely comical.

One day, Tyler Madden is a dynamic prospect whose incredible development has turned Adam Gaudette into trade bait.

The next day, Tyler Madden is a shrimp with huge question marks who never had a chance to play for the Canucks because he was stuck behind studs like Adam Gaudette. No big loss.

As I've said multiple times, Jim Benning could get drunk and drive his car into a group of pedestrians, and these accounts would blame the victims for standing in the wrong place and denting Benning's car.

And if anyone wants to look it up, I'm on record multiple times comparing Madden to Brayden Point and as having at 25-40 in a 2018 redraft last summer (before he even further upped his stock). And most other people here were similarly high. There is only one side flip-flopping here.

 

[4Twenty]

At the collegiate level yes but at pro level it's a totally different world not to say he can't but odds are maybe 50/50 that's true of A majority of prospects as well just to succeed as pro players somewhere and it even tougher to be an NHL impact player by far.

He has those assets. That’s what you brought up. He’s fast and has hands. He’s been very good against his elite peers at the world juniors and is the best player on a very good NCAA program.

He’s got better odds than you’re giving him credit for.

He’s basically done exactly what’s expected of an elite prospect so far.

 

[Hoghandler]

It's absolutely comical.

One day, Tyler Madden is a dynamic prospect whose incredible development has turned Adam Gaudette into trade bait.

The next day, Tyler Madden is a shrimp with huge question marks who never had a chance to play for the Canucks because he was stuck behind studs like Adam Gaudette. No big loss.

Would prefer you quote my posts, as opposed to coming up with your own interpretations. You're just too willing to be dishonest, to misrepresent people's POV, to make a point. You're smart enough to know the reason I didn't like Adam Gaudette at 3rd line centre, I made it abundantly clear.

I explicitly stated Adam Gaudette was bleeding chances against, and a liability defensively. Which could really come back to cost the team. Wanted a more reliable, veteran centre plugged in there. And it was something they could look at because of the redundancy or overlap of Gaudette and Madden's skillset. Nothing has changed, they just appear to be trusting Gaudette in that role, which I'm not convinced is a great idea.

Not to mention I never said Tyler Madden wouldn't play on this team. I said the Canucks are deep in the positions he will look to break in at, which is correct. That it was a steep price to pay for Toffoli, and that Madden will be an NHL player.

Like, the guy is tiny. There is now way around this. And saying a team would prefer to take a 1st rd pick, where they get to hand pick their favourite prospect, over a small forward like Madden isn't a controversial opinion. Not in the slightest.

Tyler Madden is still a dynamic prospect, that was a tremendous pick, and developing very well. None of that has changed one bit. Yet he's still got a tiny frame...

 

[MS]

Would prefer you quote my posts, as opposed to coming up with your own interpretations. You're just too willing to be dishonest, to misrepresent people's POV, to make a point. You're smart enough to know the reason I didn't like Adam Gaudette at 3rd line centre, I made it abundantly clear.

I explicitly stated Adam Gaudette was bleeding chances against, and a liability defensively. Which could really come back to cost the team. Wanted a more reliable, veteran centre plugged in there. And it was something they could look at because of the redundancy or overlap of Gaudette and Madden's skillset. Nothing has changed, they just appear to be trusting Gaudette in that role, which I'm not convinced is a great idea.

Not to mention I never said Tyler Madden wouldn't play on this team. I said the Canucks are deep in the positions he will look to break in at, which is correct. That it was a steep price to pay for Toffoli, and that Madden will be an NHL player.

Like, the guy is tiny. There is now way around this. And saying a team would prefer to take a 1st rd pick, where they get to hand pick their favourite prospect, over a small forward like Madden isn't a controversial opinion. Not in the slightest.

Tyler Madden is still a dynamic prospect, that was a tremendous pick, and developing very well. None of that has changed one bit. Yet he's still got a tiny frame...

Your quotes are pretty clearly on the record.

You said last week that Gaudette - a player on pace for 40+ points as a rookie - was potentially trade bait because of Madden's development.

Then, a week later, you said that Madden was in tough to ever get a look here because of the development of Gaudette.

There is no reconciling of those two statements. I wonder what happened in that week?

You've been crowing about Madden in multiple discussions for the past year in nothing but hugely positive terms. Then, the instant he's traded, you're trying to dump on him, mitigate the loss, and are trying to portray him as a pipsqueak with huge question marks and limited value as a result of his size - things you never once mentioned before. It's comical.

 

[Hoghandler]

Your quotes are pretty clearly on the record.

You said last week that Gaudette - a player on pace for 40+ points as a rookie - was potentially trade bait because of Madden's development.

Then, a week later, you said that Madden was in tough to ever get a look here because of the development of Gaudette.

There is no reconciling of those two statements. I wonder what happened in that week?

You've been crowing about Madden in multiple discussions for the past year in nothing but hugely positive terms. Then, the instant he's traded, you're trying to dump on him, mitigate the loss, and are trying to portray him as a pipsqueak with huge question marks and limited value as a result of his size - things you never once mentioned before. It's comical.

They are on record. I want you to quote them. Tell me again why I didn't like Adam Gaudette at 3rd line centre? Here's a hint, it has absolutely nothing to do with Tyler Madden stepping into those minutes in the short term. I explicitly stated my reasoning, a handful of times. It was due to Gaudette's fit at 3C behind Pettersson/Horvat, and his lack of defensive game.

Pointing out a guy's weight, age and claiming he wouldn't garner more value than a 1st rd pick isn't stating Tyler Madden has 'limited value'. That's your interpretation, and it's obviously a poor one. Not once did I state Tyler Madden has 'limited value'. Nothing of the sort.

Again, quote me. No more of what you think I'm saying.

 

[MS]

They are on record. I want you to quote them. Tell me again why I didn't like Adam Gaudette at 3rd line centre? Here's a hint, it has absolutely nothing to do with Tyler Madden stepping into those minutes in the short term. I explicitly stated my reasoning, a handful of times. It was due to Gaudette's fit at 3C behind Pettersson/Horvat, and his lack of defensive game.

Pointing out a guy's weight, age and claiming he wouldn't garner more value than a 1st rd pick isn't stating Tyler Madden has 'limited value'. That's your interpretation, and it's obviously a poor one. Not once did I state Tyler Madden has 'limited value'. Nothing of the sort.

Again, quote me. No more of what you think I'm saying.

OK.

I'm well aware you didn't like Adam Gaudette as the #3 center. Nobody is denying this.

That's what makes this quote so comical :

Do you think Tyler Madden had a future as a centre in Vancouver, with the emergence of Gaudette?

Confirmed with Link: - [VAN/LA] Canucks acquire F Tyler Toffoli for Tim Schaller, Tyler Madden, 2020 2nd Round Pick

You're clearly trying to spin Madden as a non-significant loss due to the fact he had no future at C in Vancouver due to the presence of Gaudette ... a player you didn't even view as a long-term center a few days earlier.

 

[Hit the post]

Lol, too many centers talk (like guys can’t be shifted to wing; heck even EP had done that for a bit this season). Reminds me of the 1984 NBA draft. Portland Jailbreakers already had an all star guard on their roster (Clyde Drexler) so they decided to draft by position- a perceived weakness - a center named Sam Bowie instead of a certain guard. That guard was Michael Jordan.

 

[Hoghandler]

OK.

I'm well aware you didn't like Adam Gaudette as the #3 center. Nobody is denying this.

That's what makes this quote so comical :



Confirmed with Link: - [VAN/LA] Canucks acquire F Tyler Toffoli for Tim Schaller, Tyler Madden, 2020 2nd Round Pick

You're clearly trying to spin Madden as a non-significant loss due to the fact he had no future at C in Vancouver due to the presence of Gaudette ... a player you didn't even view as a long-term center a few days earlier.

The organisation is developing Adam Gaudette as a centre, he's stayed exclusively at centre all season and there appears to be no sign of this changing anytime soon. It doesn't matter what I think of Gaudette at centre, if Travis Green and management want him there, he will play there, likely for a long time.

Which begs the obvious question, how does Tyler Madden get minutes at centre on this team in the coming years, with 3 young centremen in the fold? Like, isn't this just a blatantly obvious question?

I also would have been okay if they dealt Gaudette and kept Madden, due to the overlap in their skillsets and likely position on the depth chart. But they opted to keep the player that is better today, and move the younger one.

If I'm trying to 'spin' Madden as no big loss, why have I repeatedly stated they paid a steep price for Toffoli? Why have I repeatedly stated I think Madden will be an NHL player? Again, enough with your interpretations.

 

[MS]

The organisation is developing Adam Gaudette as a centre, he's stayed exclusively at centre all season and there appears to be no sign of this changing anytime soon. It doesn't matter what I think of Gaudette at centre, if Travis Green and management want him there, he will play there, likely for a long time.

Which begs the obvious question, how does Tyler Madden get minutes at centre on this team in the coming years, with 3 young centremen in the fold? Like, isn't this just a blatantly obvious question?

I also would have been okay if they dealt Gaudette and kept Madden, due to the overlap in their skillsets and likely position on the depth chart. But they opted to keep the player that is better today, and move the younger one.

If I'm trying to 'spin' Madden as no big loss, why have I repeatedly stated they paid a steep price for Toffoli? Why have I repeatedly stated I think Madden will be an NHL player? Again, enough with your interpretations.

Jesus Christ, this is entertaining.

Well, no. You were suggesting Gaudette was trade bait due to Madden a week before the trade, and then suggesting that Madden would never play C in Vancouver because of Gaudette a week later. If Madden was good enough to push Gaudette to the sidelines on February 9, he was good enough to push Gaudette to the sidelines on February 20.

You've also spent the last year talking up Madden endlessly and never once mentioned concerns about his position or concerns about his size ... until the instant he was traded. Since then, every single post has been to try and diminish his value and the impact that his loss will have. Your agenda is just blatantly obvious. Shill for Benning at all costs. Praise all acquisitions. Dump on all departed players.

And, again, the whole center argument is basically a red herring anyway. Madden can play wing.

 

[bbud]

He has those assets. That’s what you brought up. He’s fast and has hands. He’s been very good against his elite peers at the world juniors and is the best player on a very good NCAA program.

He’s got better odds than you’re giving him credit for.

He’s basically done exactly what’s expected of an elite prospect so far.

Madden may well end up a solid player one day I have simply said that's still a ways to prove at a pro level , add to that the hype or negativity toward prospects here , Shinkaruk was the next sure 50 goal a year shooter Virtanen would have been traded for a bag of pucks so it's a wait and see like most prospects .

 

[Hoghandler]

Well, no. You were suggesting Gaudette was trade bait due to Madden a week before the trade, and then suggesting that Madden would never play C in Vancouver because of Gaudette a week later.

And here it, this is where your interpretation isn't reflective of my opinion. Adam Gaudette was not trade bait due to Tyler Madden. He was trade bait because I wanted an upgrade at his position. That is why he was trade bait. That upgrade I wanted was not Tyler Madden, it was a defensive minded, reliable centre with experience. Having Tyler Madden in the system made that move more palatable. He wasn't the reason I wanted Gaudette replaced.

Again, if the organisation likes Gaudette at centre, and there are no signs of taking him out of that role, how exactly do you envision Madden breaking in at centre anytime soon? This is just such a blatantly obvious question. It doesn't matter how I view Gaudette, if the organisation likes him there, he will play there.

 

[MS]

And here it, this is where your interpretation isn't reflective of my opinion. Adam Gaudette was not trade bait due to Tyler Madden. He was trade bait because I wanted an upgrade at his position. That is why he was trade bait. That upgrade I wanted was not Tyler Madden, it was a defensive minded, reliable centre with experience. Having Tyler Madden in the system made that move more palatable. He wasn't the reason I wanted Gaudette replaced.

Again, if the organisation likes Gaudette at centre, and there are no signs of taking him out of that role, how exactly do you envision Madden breaking in at centre anytime soon? This is just such a blatantly obvious question. It doesn't matter how I view Gaudette, if the organisation likes him there, he will play there.

Player Discussion - Adam Gaudette - Part III

With Madden coming, I could see Gaudetter dealt to upgrade the roster elsewhere.

Uh, sure thing.

And YET AGAIN, the W/C thing is a complete red herring. If Madden was good enough, he was going to play somewhere in our forward group 2-3 years from now.

 

[Didalee Hed]

Yes.

Would you show an example of this in action?

 

[Hoghandler]

Player Discussion - Adam Gaudette - Part III



Uh, sure thing.

And YET AGAIN, the W/C thing is a complete red herring. If Madden was good enough, he was going to play somewhere in our forward group 2-3 years from now.

Why do you honestly think I wanted Adam Gaudette out of the 3C position? Be honest.

Was the snippet you quoted an additional reason why they could afford to move Gaudette, or was it the main point I led with? Again, just be honest.