Management Thread...less Jack Burton.

[PM]

Maybe so, but it's just hockey. It's an outlet for me, a distraction not an obsession. I'm pretty intrigued by the sudden presence of two superstars ages 21 and 20 at the two key positions of center and defence. I have followed this team forever and never seen this before. It's exciting.

The negativity seems misplaced to me, but that's my problem and it's up to me to find a way to avoid it. No one else.

I totally get where you’re coming from and have been torn on it myself. The canucks definitely used to be an obsession but have become more of an outlet for me as I’ve gotten older.

With that said, I’m sick of being a bad team and I enjoy watching us this year as long as I don’t think at all about any of the off ice aspects of the canucks. But isn’t that what this board is mostly for? I come here to talk about contracts, trades and prospects because no one at work knows shit all about them. They just want to cheer when we win and say “on to the next one” when we lose. Every year since 2010. Reading the various forms of “yay” and “on to the next one” isn’t very interesting. Disagreement is healthy in the context of a discussion board and as long as we have a mix of angry, happy, and completely ambivalent I think we’re in good shape.

Not speaking to you specifically at all but the only thing I’m sick of is reading posts about how negative/positive/bad/good the discourse is here. We have one of the most active, engaged group of posters on HF here in this forum, regardless of all their flaws, including my own.

 

[Hoghandler]

I made a direct quote of a poster who, without fail, will bring up his weight to denigrate him now that he is no longer in our system despite no one actually being that concerned about him before the trade given his high end skill shining through.

It's just unabashed spin at this point and it's just so transparent—it's like a switch has flipped.

Listing the size and age of a player is not denigrating them. That is completely absurd.

You're naïve if you don't think general managers value size. If Tyler Madden was having the season he's having with a big, pro frame, he would be viewed as a safer bet to translate that game to the NHL level, and hold more trade value. When you're evaluating NHL equivalencies, size cohorts are looked at in the process. Size plays a considerable role in these determinations. I assumed this was just common knowledge.

That doesn't mean you have to have size to be a good player. It doesn't mean I don't think Tyler Madden will be an NHL player. It doesn't mean I don't think he's a good prospect. It means his size will factor into his NHLe, and make him a less valuable asset in the marketplace than someone without the same lack of size. Which in turn affects his value.

Saying a GM would prefer a 1st rd pick over Tyler Madden is not the hot take you seem to think it is. Nor is it 'denigrating' a player to list their size and age. It's evidence to support my position, a position that would be widely accepted outside a handful of emotional fans on this board.

 

[racerjoe]

Listing the size and age of a player is not denigrating them. That is completely absurd.

You're naïve if you don't think general managers value size. If Tyler Madden was having the season he's having with a big, pro frame, he would be viewed as a safer bet to translate that game to the NHL level, and hold more trade value. When you're evaluating NHL equivalencies, size cohorts are looked at in the process. Size plays a considerable role in these determinations. I assumed this was just common knowledge.

That doesn't mean you have to have size to be a good player. It doesn't mean I don't think Tyler Madden will be an NHL player. It doesn't mean I don't think he's a good prospect. It means his size will factor into his NHLe, and make him a less valuable asset in the marketplace than someone without the same lack of size. Which in turn affects his value.

Saying a GM would prefer a 1st rd pick over Tyler Madden is not the hot take you seem to think it is. Nor is it 'denigrating' a player to list their size and age. It's evidence to support my position, a position that would be widely accepted outside a handful of emotional fans on this board.

I always laugh reading your replies as you try and twist and turn what you have said.

 

[Hoghandler]

I always laugh reading your replies as you try and twist and turn what you have said.

Okay, what did I say to denigrate Tyler Madden? Quote it.

 

[Melvin]

While yes you hope Benning could be a bit more creative I don't think the Backes deal is something to get worked up over. Backes contract ends next season, Eriksson has one more year after. Boston had their 1st rounder to trade, we already traded ours. And finally if anyone has a good shot with him it's probably Boston but otherwise Kase is looking like Joffrey Lupul-lite. Boston was trying to ditch Backes so they were going to take what they could get, but the fact that the rebuilding Ducks moved 24 year old Kase for a pick and a prospect should say a lot.

Would you rather have Boston's first round pick or Tyler Madden?

Haven't run the numbers but I think it's Madden.

 

[NUhockey]

Madden is a top 50 prospect and has proven too much skills wise to be discounted for scrawniness. A top 5 player in the NCAA at age 20.

If I'm the Bruins GM and someone offers me Tyler Madden for 27-30 overall I'm grinning on the the other end of the phone like a sickly wolf, and probably laughing to my friends afterward over celebratory drinks.

 

[I am toxic]

Benning's trades are maddening.

 

[vanuck]

Would you rather have Boston's first round pick or Tyler Madden?

Haven't run the numbers but I think it's Madden.

Yeah I think in a re-draft he probably goes in the 1st round.

 

[UK Canuck]

Would you rather have Boston's first round pick or Tyler Madden?

Haven't run the numbers but I think it's Madden.

According to his PNHLe(via Dobber Prospects) he was projecting as a borderline 1st line player before the injury, so yes, Madden

 

[Seattle Totems]

He delegated to someone who had no idea how to draft (Delorme). Delegation is supposed to be what a GM does, his downfall was not recognizing the organizational weakness and correcting it fast enough.

Outside of promoting Brackett to head scout what has Benning done well?

Cap management? No
Asset management? No
Roster management? No
Organisational stability? No
Brand strength? No
Winning? No

The Canucks were a model franchise when Gillis was GM. Ill take that era any day over the last six years of Benning and a future with no playoffs and a bunch of 1st round picks and prospects traded for cap casualties.

 

[Johnny Canucker]

We are gonna trade for a terrible declining Tyson Barrie on an expiring contract. We are gonna give up draft picks to swap Stetcher for Barrie for 20 games.

 

[Melvin]

Just for context, the 28th overall pick is an NHL player around 40% of the time (depending on your definition of NHL player.) The 48th overall pick (say) is around 30%.

That's roughly the difference between what the Bruins gave up to dump Backes (and get Kase) and what the Canucks threw in to get Toffoli for 20 games in addition to Tyler Madden.

People get so hung up on "1st round" when there is a much, much wider gap between 10 and 20 than there is between like 30 and 40.

 

[racerjoe]

Okay, what did I say to denigrate Tyler Madden? Quote it.

there have been two or three posters that have already. MS has done it twice yesterday once about madden and once on the Toffoli trade.

 

[timw33]

there have been two or three posters that have already. MS has done it twice yesterday once about madden and once on the Toffoli trade.

He's too busy reporting people for calling him out. (If I get dinged for this one too, goodbye for a while HF!)

 

[VancouverJagger]

According to his PNHLe(via Dobber Prospects) he was projecting as a borderline 1st line player before the injury, so yes, Madden

What? Come on........Madden was projecting to be a borderline 1st line player? That's the first that I have heard of it.
I mean he definitely could...........but "projecting to be" is a lot different than could. I would suggest the odds are well against him becoming a first line player. I'd venture to say mayyyybe in the vicinity of 20% - give or take 10%. Still good odds for a third round pick however nowhere near something you would bank on.

 

[Hoghandler]

there have been two or three posters that have already. MS has done it twice yesterday once about madden and once on the Toffoli trade.

Okay, let's see for ourselves then. Here is the post 'denigrating' Tyler Madden that triggered timw33.

Seems very unlikely a GM is going to take a 150lb, 20 year old Tyler Madden over a 1st rd pick...

Canuck players, coaches and management are torn to shreds on this site, by the hour. And this is the post to take exception to for 'denigrating' a player? Listing his age, weight and saying he won't garner more interest than a 1st rd pick?

The poster that took offense to this statement just so happens to be the same person that said 'f*** this kid', due to some innocuous social media posts Tyler made when he was a 15 year old kid. And now all of a sudden he's got a problem with pointing out the guy has a small frame? As I said, it's absurd.

 

[mathonwy]

I totally get where you’re coming from and have been torn on it myself. The canucks definitely used to be an obsession but have become more of an outlet for me as I’ve gotten older.

With that said, I’m sick of being a bad team and I enjoy watching us this year as long as I don’t think at all about any of the off ice aspects of the canucks. But isn’t that what this board is mostly for? I come here to talk about contracts, trades and prospects because no one at work knows shit all about them. They just want to cheer when we win and say “on to the next one” when we lose. Every year since 2010. Reading the various forms of “yay” and “on to the next one” isn’t very interesting. Disagreement is healthy in the context of a discussion board and as long as we have a mix of angry, happy, and completely ambivalent I think we’re in good shape.

Not speaking to you specifically at all but the only thing I’m sick of is reading posts about how negative/positive/bad/good the discourse is here. We have one of the most active, engaged group of posters on HF here in this forum, regardless of all their flaws, including my own.

I don't have any flaws.

 

[UK Canuck]

What? Come on........Madden was projecting to be a borderline 1st line player? That's the first that I have heard of it.
I mean he definitely could...........but "projecting to be" is a lot different than could. I would suggest the odds are well against him becoming a first line player. I'd venture to say mayyyybe in the vicinity of 20% - give or take 10%. Still good odds for a third round pick however nowhere near something you would bank on.

Tyler Madden

There's an explanation of what PNHLe is on this page and a graph of Madden's progress

 

[racerjoe]

Okay, let's see for ourselves then. Here is the post 'denigrating' Tyler Madden that triggered timw33.



Canuck players, coaches and management are torn to shreds on this site, by the hour. And this is the post to take exception to for 'denigrating' a player? Listing his age, weight and saying he won't garner more interest than a 1st rd pick?

The poster that took offense to this statement just so happens to be the same person that said 'f*** this kid', due to some innocuous social media posts Tyler made when he was a 15 year old kid. And now all of a sudden he's got a problem with pointing out the guy has a small frame? As I said, it's absurd.

you are doing it in this very post... you are quoting part of a post then stating another part to not show the full conversation. Anyone who has read the thread knows.

 

[Hoghandler]

you are doing it in this very post... you are quoting part of a post then stating another part to not show the full conversation. Anyone who has read the thread knows.

I quoted the exact same post, to the letter that timw33 quoted and took exception to. To the letter.

Now that you know the full picture, where he absolutely was denigrating Madden, maybe you can see why I have no time for this poster's criticism. None.

Tyler Madden has a tiny frame, that's just a fact.

Michael DiPietro is tiny by NHL goalie standards as well. It's not 'denigrating' him to say so. It's pointing out an obvious physical characteristic that will impact his chances at becoming an impact player in the NHL.

 

[racerjoe]

I quoted the exact same post, to the letter that timw33 quoted and took exception to. To the letter.

Now that you know the full picture, where he absolutely was denigrating Madden, maybe you can see why I have no time for this poster's criticism. None.

Tyler Madden has a tiny frame, that's just a fact.

Michael DiPietro is tiny by NHL goalie standards as well. It's not 'denigrating' him to say so. It's pointing out an obvious physical characteristic that will impact his chances at becoming an impact player in the NHL.

and you didn’t even respond to the point I made. You take one part of it what I of I said, and argue it... not the point.

 

[VancouverJagger]

Tyler Madden

There's an explanation of what PNHLe is on this page and a graph of Madden's progress

K.......massive difference between the words "potential" and "projection"

 

[Melvin]

If anyone is curious, you can estimate the probability that a given draft position nets you an NHL player with this formula: LN(draftposition) * -.166 + 0.95

Really works quite well.

 

[VancouverJagger]

Regardless of how bad he turned out to be, you could also make the argument that the anti-Benning people have more in common with the initial MAGA movement, which was a rejection of the status quo and the establishment.

Currently? Yeah, absolutely. Initially? Pro-Benning people are more like Jeb Bush or Hillary supporters.

But, I digress.

Hahahha - yes I could agree with those comparisons. Where does that leave us in the middle though?

 

[Hoghandler]

If anyone is curious, you can estimate the probability that a given draft position nets you an NHL player with this formula: LN(draftposition) * -.166 + 0.95

Really works quite well.

What are you using to get a players projection that hasn't played in the NHL? I'm assuming it's height, weight, date of birth and PPG in a given league? How are you plugging that one in?