Malkin vs. Sakic/Yzerman

[Pittsburgh1776]

No, you call back when that happens. It's a big "if" given his age and history.

He still has the chance to put together a Sakic or Yzerman level career, but it's unlikely.

There's a chance you'll be proven right but you sure as hell haven't been yet, and you certainly wouldn't be acting like you already have been, or that 1300-1500 games is a certainty.

I think you misunderstood the post. Try again. Given his style of play and injury history, it is highly unlikely that Malkin will be able to play as long as these two did. Longevity separates them. As a player though, peak Malkin is more impressive to me.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Somehow I knew who created the thread without looking.

Malkin is close to the 19s but will not surpass them, short of a late career miracle. I don't see how Malkin's shot is better than Yzerman's. Without 99 and 66 in the picture, Yzerman's point finishes blow him away. A 35 y.o. Yzerman became the 1AS.

All three have comparable peaks, but the 19s were better all around players and more consistent / healthier too.

Top 5 pt finishes in this scenario (no 99/66)

Yzerman: 1,2,3,5

Malkin: 1,1,2,4

Yzerman is definitely "blowing away" Malkin there! Clearly you, like most people, just pull out the lame "because Gretzky/Lemieux!" excuse without taking 2 seconds to research.

As for Yzerman being 1st AST at 35, good for him? He still has less 1st ASTs than Malkin (even after removing 99/66) so who cares? Just random trivia.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

But in that same regard Yzerman had better peak offensive seasons than Malkin in comparison to his piers. Yzerman would have won some Art Ross trophies if he wasn't competing against Lemuix and Gretzky. Sakic had his best offensive season during peak clutch and grab. Malkin won an Art Ross but was he competing against the top 1 and 2 offensive players of all time?

To your point Yzerman was not always a two way player, but when he wasn't he was still a bigger offensive player than Malkin. Are you saying that becoming a 2 way player would have no impact on his offense? Because I disagree with that.

I am not saying Malkin is bad on defense, he isn't and his defense is also partly his offense because when he is on you don't need defense. But would you ever compare Malkin's defense to say Patrice Bergeron? Because that was the level of defense Yzerman brought when he committed. Half a career of dedicated back checking is going to show in your numbers.

If by "some" you mean one, then yes he would have. His pt finishes and AST record would still be clearly inferior to Malkin.

 

[EXTRAS]

Same realm as those 2 guys.

 

[K Fleur]

I think when his career is over Malkin will be ranked behind a few players he was better than. For many reasons.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Malkin was used on the PK early on because we strived to keep useful NHLers on the ice as often as possible, as they weren't super plentiful back then...

Malkin "can be" good defensively in the same way that Lemieux could be...Malkin is a great player and a horse of a human, so he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants...he doesn't play a lot of defense and never really did for any noteworthy length of time...

 

[GMR]

Malkin was used on the PK early on because we strived to keep useful NHLers on the ice as often as possible, as they weren't super plentiful back then...

Malkin "can be" good defensively in the same way that Lemieux could be...Malkin is a great player and a horse of a human, so he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants...he doesn't play a lot of defense and never really did for any noteworthy length of time...

Malkin in his first four or five seasons was struggling to hit 40% on faceoffs. Teams don't want that kind of center on the PK. That's a huge liability. He's improved a little in that area but it's always been a weakness.

In general, the centers on the PK are players who can win over 50% of their faceoffs. On the PK this is more important than anywhere else.

 

[daver]

Malkin was used on the PK early on because we strived to keep useful NHLers on the ice as often as possible, as they weren't super plentiful back then...

Malkin "can be" good defensively in the same way that Lemieux could be...Malkin is a great player and a horse of a human, so he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants...he doesn't play a lot of defense and never really did for any noteworthy length of time...

I would see Malkin as being more like Sakic and Yzerman in their "before they became Selke-level Cs" (in Sakic's case it really is only one season) rather than being notably lax on defense to the extent it is a commonly attached narrative. I.e. they didn't get points added for their defense nor did they necessarily lose points.

 

[rintinw]

Not a terrible amount of PK time per game at 28 seconds, 49 seconds, 1:05 at his max, then back down to 15 seconds, then 4 seconds, then 2 seconds.

Reads more like someone who was tested in the role and decided against.

More like having Bylsma for a coach.

His PK time was rising every season up until Therrien was fired. After Bylsma came in his PK time immediately dropped to almost zero. He was never really tried in that situation under Bylsma (I don't count going to PK for last 10s of PK to abuse tired PP unit and trying to spring returning player for offense).

Not only that, Malkin was PK regular on Russian national team (but here the thing, only until Bylsma came over and with one other exception: during 2012 lockout. That also coincided with him playing PK again under Paul Maurice in Magnitogorsk).

It's the same with empty net situations. After being used often by Therrien (and being really good at both preventing being scored on and closing the games) he was used very sparingly by Bylsma.

Now, I am not conflating these two things with defensive play (Ovechkin or Kane are routinely in empty net situations, Kovalchuk and Bure were regularly used as PKers). It's just a little context to those stats.

I've watched enough. I'm not saying he's a terrible defensive forward. I'm saying it's not one of his strengths as a player. He likely doesn't kill penalties because he cannot win a faceoff to save his life. Although, he's better this season so far in faceoffs. We'll see where the numbers are at the end of the year.

Staal was regular PKer during that time. In 2007-09 (when both he and Malkin played PK regularly) he had roughly same FO% than Malkin when shorthanded. He continued to have that FO% (PK situations) for rest of his PIT career.

 

[rintinw]

Not sure why I struggle with this question. I don't want to undercut Malkin's abilities because they are phenomenal but I just don't see him in the same league as Yzerman and Sakic. I think one way to look at it is if Sakic and Yzerman gave up their 2 way focus and went pure offense their whole careers how many more points would those two have. For example Yzerman might have broke into the top 5 goals scored all time had he not focused on other aspects of the game. Both players also still put up respectable numbers before the rule changes too when hooking was ok and 2 line pass was in play but that is hard to put into perspective with Malkin. Totally different eras. I would just want to see more evidence of Malkin's complete game before this discussion gets legs. I don't personally consider Malkin two way. Yzerman and Sakic were both elite in almost all aspects of the game while also bringing hall of fame offensive numbers. There are so few players in history that fire on that many cylinders. Malkin has been the most offensively dominant player in the world at times and that is also truly rare. But you have to be bigger than that in your one dimensional category to get in the conversation with the other two complete players. Maybe if Malkin averaged 130 points a season over a 5 or 6 year period you can start to overlook a complete game with that kinda peak. But he doesn't have that.

This is ridiculous expectation. Had he done that, he would probably have another 2-3 Art Rosses to his name (and who knows how Hart and Pearson votings would end up with him being that dominant over the rest of the league). Just for the record: Crosby has the best 5y peak with 1.44 ppg (118 pt pace, 130 pt pace is 1.59 ppg).

 

[BigEezyE22]

I wonder if the Don Cherry clones in this thread could project what the good ol' Canadian Boys would've done defensively with the most prolific dont given a shit player in the league on their RW's.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I wonder if the Don Cherry clones in this thread could project what the good ol' Canadian Boys would've done defensively with the most prolific dont given a **** player in the league on their RW's.

Ridiculous take. Most if not all acknowledge that Yzerman and Sakic had Russian and Swedish centers on their teams with better defensive skill sets, so it has nothing to do with being Canadian that Malkin sucks defensively.

 

[BigEezyE22]

Ridiculous take. Most if not all acknowledge that Yzerman and Sakic had Russian and Swedish centers on their teams with better defensive skill sets, so it has nothing to do with being Canadian that Malkin sucks defensively.

Lazy response.

Wish I could post it in crayon to make it easier for you to understand.

HAVE EITHER SAKIC OR YZERMAN EVER PLAYED WITH A WINGER THAT CARES AS LITTLE ABOUT D AS PHIL KESSEL?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Lazy response.

Wish I could post it in crayon to make it easier for you to understand.

HAVE EITHER SAKIC OR YZERMAN EVER PLAYED WITH A WINGER THAT CARES AS LITTLE ABOUT D AS PHIL KESSEL?

Why would something being written in crayon make it easier to understand? Do you think children can only read in crayon?

Malkin’s reputation for not being a defensive player is not limited to the year he played with Kessel. He hasn’t been a competent defensive center like Sakic or Yzerman at any point in his career.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, crayon is much tougher to read, but I suppose it's telling that you wish you had them lying around...

Point of order, Kessel was actually really good defensively in his first playoffs with Pittsburgh. In fact, it was the best defense he had played in his whole career in my estimation.

Though, sure, for the rest of his time here, he wasn't much for it...but I just don't get how this is supposed to exonerate Malkin, who did little to cover for Kessel's warts...and that's why Malkin and Kessel started in the offensive zone all the time and that's why everything came to a head last year when they went a combined -44 on a team that only had five regulars in the minus at all (all single digit minuses at that)...

 

[GMR]

According to puckbase, here are Malkin's yearly faceoff stats in the defensive zone. This does not differentiate between PK and even strength

2008 - 44.1% (211 attempted)
2009 - 40.6% (133 attempted)
2010 - 41.5% (94 attempted)
2011 - 36.7% (30 attempted)
2012 - 48.8% (207 attempted)
2013 - 52.3% (86 attempted)
2014 - 50.0% (140 attempted)
2015 - 42.3% (194 attempted)
2016 - 34.5% (148 attempted)
2017 - 37.0% (154 attempted)
2018 - 42.2% (230 attempted)
2019 - 43.2% (185 attempted)


Now here's the same graph, but looking at PK only. Notice the stark difference in total faceoffs

2008 - 48.1% (27 attempted)
2009 - 36.4% (22 attempted)
2010 - 0.0% (1 attempted)
2011 - no attempts
2012 - 0.0% (1 attempted)
2013 - 100% (1 attempted)
2014 - no attempts
2015 - no attempts
2016 - 25.0% (4 attempted)
2017 - no attempts
2018 - 0.0% (1 attempted

As you can see, if he's killing penalties at all, it must be after the puck is cleared and the forwards change. No coach trusts him taking faceoffs on the PK. Hard to call him a two-way player when he's a center with that kind of limitation, even in his 30's.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't really equate penalty kill and defensive ability. The game is altered in special teams scenarios anyhow. But, anyway, yes, it jives with the eye test...Malkin's not a defensive player...

 

[GMR]

I don't really equate penalty kill and defensive ability. The game is altered in special teams scenarios anyhow. But, anyway, yes, it jives with the eye test...Malkin's not a defensive player...

Defensive play only came into this discussion when some (myself included) pointed out that Yzerman and Sakic have a significant advantage over Malkin in that department. That's not to say that either player is a Bergeron or Carbonneau type, or that Malkin is a terrible defensive player. It's just a weakness he has when comparing him to other great centers around his tier in the all-time rankings. When he hangs up his skates, he won't be compared to Gretzky, Lemieux, Beliveau, or Crosby, but he will be compared to centers like Yzerman, Sakic, Trottier, Messier, etc. I think of all those players as more complete than him.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, we're on the same page here by and large...as a Penguins fan (with Malkin gear and a deep appreciation for his game, I hate having to have that preamble, but that's the internet for ya...), I just wanted to ensure that the arts and crafts loving Penguins fan didn't sully Malkin's poor defensive reputation with undeserved accolades.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Malkin was used on the PK early on because we strived to keep useful NHLers on the ice as often as possible, as they weren't super plentiful back then...

Malkin "can be" good defensively in the same way that Lemieux could be...Malkin is a great player and a horse of a human, so he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants...he doesn't play a lot of defense and never really did for any noteworthy length of time...

And that's a huge knock against him. This is especially true with Crosby showing the way and taking his defensive game so seriously on the same team ! Incomprehensible. I can only Imagine how great Pittsburgh would be if Malkin was just as good as Sid defensively.

 

[authentic]

I think when his career is over Malkin will be ranked behind a few players he was better than. For many reasons.

Similar to Datsyuk but to a lesser extent.

 

[authentic]

According to puckbase, here are Malkin's yearly faceoff stats in the defensive zone. This does not differentiate between PK and even strength

2008 - 44.1% (211 attempted)
2009 - 40.6% (133 attempted)
2010 - 41.5% (94 attempted)
2011 - 36.7% (30 attempted)
2012 - 48.8% (207 attempted)
2013 - 52.3% (86 attempted)
2014 - 50.0% (140 attempted)
2015 - 42.3% (194 attempted)
2016 - 34.5% (148 attempted)
2017 - 37.0% (154 attempted)
2018 - 42.2% (230 attempted)
2019 - 43.2% (185 attempted)


Now here's the same graph, but looking at PK only. Notice the stark difference in total faceoffs

2008 - 48.1% (27 attempted)
2009 - 36.4% (22 attempted)
2010 - 0.0% (1 attempted)
2011 - no attempts
2012 - 0.0% (1 attempted)
2013 - 100% (1 attempted)
2014 - no attempts
2015 - no attempts
2016 - 25.0% (4 attempted)
2017 - no attempts
2018 - 0.0% (1 attempted

As you can see, if he's killing penalties at all, it must be after the puck is cleared and the forwards change. No coach trusts him taking faceoffs on the PK. Hard to call him a two-way player when he's a center with that kind of limitation, even in his 30's.

Aside from his faceoff ability and lack of killing penalties, I find his even strength defensive play has been average at worst and above average in playoff runs when it was required more. I don't think anyone could seriously believe he's a bad defensive player by any stretch.

 

[rintinw]

According to puckbase, here are Malkin's yearly faceoff stats in the defensive zone. This does not differentiate between PK and even strength

2008 - 44.1% (211 attempted)
2009 - 40.6% (133 attempted)
2010 - 41.5% (94 attempted)
2011 - 36.7% (30 attempted)
2012 - 48.8% (207 attempted)
2013 - 52.3% (86 attempted)
2014 - 50.0% (140 attempted)
2015 - 42.3% (194 attempted)
2016 - 34.5% (148 attempted)
2017 - 37.0% (154 attempted)
2018 - 42.2% (230 attempted)
2019 - 43.2% (185 attempted)


Now here's the same graph, but looking at PK only. Notice the stark difference in total faceoffs

2008 - 48.1% (27 attempted)
2009 - 36.4% (22 attempted)
2010 - 0.0% (1 attempted)
2011 - no attempts
2012 - 0.0% (1 attempted)
2013 - 100% (1 attempted)
2014 - no attempts
2015 - no attempts
2016 - 25.0% (4 attempted)
2017 - no attempts
2018 - 0.0% (1 attempted

As you can see, if he's killing penalties at all, it must be after the puck is cleared and the forwards change. No coach trusts him taking faceoffs on the PK. Hard to call him a two-way player when he's a center with that kind of limitation, even in his 30's.

Then the question is why did Bylsma trust Staal?

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

Malkin had his worst season as a Penguin last year, but the ugliest of those statistics probably had more to do with the bomb of a season Phil Kessel had on his wing than Malkin's own mediocrity (comparative to his normal).

It's noteworthy that now that they're on different teams, Malkin has bounced back and Kessel has accelerated into what appears to be a career death spiral. That isn't a coincidence. Kessel was killing the Pens at even strength last year.

Correct diagnosis~QoT, wrong teammate. The D Malkin and Kessel played most with was Jack Johnson. Look how he’s doing with Letang.

 

[Retire91]

This is ridiculous expectation. Had he done that, he would probably have another 2-3 Art Rosses to his name (and who knows how Hart and Pearson votings would end up with him being that dominant over the rest of the league). Just for the record: Crosby has the best 5y peak with 1.44 ppg (118 pt pace, 130 pt pace is 1.59 ppg).

I didn't say that is an expectation just that for Malkin who is a more one dimensional player he would need to be better at his dimension to be in the same conversation with complete players IMO. I like dynamic offense just as much as the next guy but I'll rank complete players higher when they are in the same offensive territory. For Malkin to bump up with these two show me more offense.