Malkin vs. Sakic/Yzerman

[VanIslander]

Malkin vs. Dionne...

Is more apples vs. apples.

 

[Habs10025]

1st- Yzerman

Between Sakic and Malkin it's six of one half a dozen of the other.

 

[Retire91]

Hard to call Sakic and Yzerman "complete" when their careers when they were clearly not "complete" throughout their "complete" careers. Didn't Yzerman get called out by the greatest coach of all-time for not being a complete player?

We absolutely saw what both players could do in terms of pure offense. Both players had elite defensive centres on their team in a few seasons to allow them to generate offense which they did in other seasons anyways. If you want to argue that Yzerman's post age 30 offensive resume was hindered given his focus on defense that's fine but to paint these guys as 2-way players, as ambiguous as that term can be, from the start of their careers is simply false.

And how much should we value 2-way play? IMO, in general, it certainly shouldn't raise a forward up to the tier of a clearly superior offensive player (which isn't necessarily the case here anyways). We aren't taking Bobby Clarke here. Malkin shows glimpses of being a force defensively when he is "on", he can look terrible when he is "off".

But in that same regard Yzerman had better peak offensive seasons than Malkin in comparison to his piers. Yzerman would have won some Art Ross trophies if he wasn't competing against Lemuix and Gretzky. Sakic had his best offensive season during peak clutch and grab. Malkin won an Art Ross but was he competing against the top 1 and 2 offensive players of all time?

To your point Yzerman was not always a two way player, but when he wasn't he was still a bigger offensive player than Malkin. Are you saying that becoming a 2 way player would have no impact on his offense? Because I disagree with that.

I am not saying Malkin is bad on defense, he isn't and his defense is also partly his offense because when he is on you don't need defense. But would you ever compare Malkin's defense to say Patrice Bergeron? Because that was the level of defense Yzerman brought when he committed. Half a career of dedicated back checking is going to show in your numbers.

 

[authentic]

Malkin is definitely the best, most elite, of these 3 players. He is a better skater, and his overall talent with the puck - the sum of shooting, passing, stickhandling, etc. - is superior to both Sakic and Yzerman.

Malkin's size is a great advantage. He's fantastic on the PP. He's been a great scorer everywhere he's played since he was a teenager, a better scorer than the other two.

Yup. It's amazing how many consider the other two better players. Better careers sure, but when the chips are down I'll take a healthy prime Malkin everyday in the regular season and playoffs, and that's saying a lot compared to these two.

 

[Turin]

I’ll take Malkin if healthy. The only reason this is a question is the fact that Geno has missed 15-20 games every year since 2012 besides 2018. He’s the best playoff performer of his generation outside of Crosby.

 

[authentic]

Anyone picking Malkin must not care about two-way play or faceoffs. He's not much at either. Certainly not on Yzerman or Sakic's level.

Offensively, he's had a great career, but Yzerman still had a higher peak with lesser linemates. If Malkin retires tomorrow at 33 years old, nobody in their right mind should pick him above Yzerman. Sakic did a lot of his damage later in his career, so he still has the edge on Malkin also.

Makin has a better peak in the playoffs and regular season. His 2009 playoffs was better than any from Yzerman and his 2011-12 season was more dominant compared to his peers, unless you want to exclude Gretzky, Lemieux AND Nicholls, and even then it's still pretty comparable.

 

[authentic]

I’ll take Malkin if healthy. The only reason this is a question is the fact that Geno has missed 15-20 games every year since 2012 besides 2018. He’s the best playoff performer of his generation outside of Crosby.

I think Sakic is pretty close, but both are a little ahead of Yzerman for me.

 

[K Fleur]

Malkin vs. Dionne...

Is more apples vs. apples.

Until the playoffs start maybe.

 

[GMR]

Makin has a better peak in the playoffs and regular season. His 2009 playoffs was better than any from Yzerman and his 2011-12 season was more dominant compared to his peers, unless you want to exclude Gretzky, Lemieux AND Nicholls, and even then it's still pretty comparable.

His playoff peak is higher. However, Malkin's best offensive seasons don't compare to Yzerman's, when you consider what kind of roster Detroit had at the time.

 

[GMR]

Yup. It's amazing how many consider the other two better players. Better careers sure, but when the chips are down I'll take a healthy prime Malkin everyday in the regular season and playoffs, and that's saying a lot compared to these two.

When the chips are down, I take two great players who are also terrific leaders over a pure offensive player like Malkin.

 

[authentic]

When the chips are down, I take two great players who are also terrific leaders over a pure offensive player like Malkin.

That's fair, but Malkin was nowhere close to a defensive liability. When he's engaged he's a puck hound all over the ice and owns the puck as soon as he takes it. Also isn't afraid to shake things up physically.

 

[authentic]

His playoff peak is higher. However, Malkin's best offensive seasons don't compare to Yzerman's, when you consider what kind of roster Detroit had at the time.

Look at who Malkin played with in 2011-12. Crosby played 22 games and James Neal has been a 40-50 point player at best outside of his 3 seasons in Pittsburgh playing with Malkin and Crosby.

 

[daver]

But in that same regard Yzerman had better peak offensive seasons than Malkin in comparison to his piers. Yzerman would have won some Art Ross trophies if he wasn't competing against Lemuix and Gretzky. Sakic had his best offensive season during peak clutch and grab. Malkin won an Art Ross but was he competing against the top 1 and 2 offensive players of all time?

To your point Yzerman was not always a two way player, but when he wasn't he was still a bigger offensive player than Malkin. Are you saying that becoming a 2 way player would have no impact on his offense? Because I disagree with that.

I am not saying Malkin is bad on defense, he isn't and his defense is also partly his offense because when he is on you don't need defense. But would you ever compare Malkin's defense to say Patrice Bergeron? Because that was the level of defense Yzerman brought when he committed. Half a career of dedicated back checking is going to show in your numbers.

One season can be argued but that is partially because Malkin missed a few games in 11/12. PPG dominance was similar. Their other best seasons are comparable, Malkin may have the better higher end seasons.

Not sure why Sakic playing during the "peak clutch and grab" bears any relevance, Malkin's best season was during an even lower scoring year for the top end offensive players.

 

[VanIslander]

Top-10s in scoring seasons...

Malkin
Goals 2nd, 4th, 4th
Assists 1st, 3rd, 6th

Dionne
Goals 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 9th, 10th
Assists 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 9th, 9th, 9th

Note: Both of Dionne's 2nds were behind Bossy. And no one has scored more points over the 1975-1985 span than Dionne. He played with no other HHOF forward on the team.

It is hard to see Malkin surpassing Dionne, a whole tier below Sakic, Yzerman. So the premise of this thread is unfair. Malkin is K.O'd.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

When the chips are down, I take two great players who are also terrific leaders over a pure offensive player like Malkin.

Reading your posts, it’s doubtful you’ve watched much of Malkin. Malkin was superb defensively when he came over in 2006, and was used in that role defensively and on the penalty kill by the Russian national teams and by Penguins coaches early in his career. He has superior anticipation and awareness of the next play, and the physical strength to take the puck or run a guy over. He was outstanding defensively in the 2009 Cup run, as he has been in the playoffs in general and throughout all our Cup runs. But in the regular season he has not been used in these roles unless Crosby is injured. Watch him play this season, and you’ll see what I mean.

Yzerman and Sakic have longevity, but when all is said and done I take 71 over both.

Oh, and Malkin is also a top leader on the Pens...he has led through example and risen to the occasion at key times countless times for us.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Reading your posts, it’s doubtful you’ve watched much of Malkin. Malkin was superb defensively when he came over in 2006, and was used in that role defensively and on the penalty kill by the Russian national teams and by Penguins coaches early in his career. He has superior anticipation and awareness of the next play, and the physical strength to take the puck or run a guy over. He was outstanding defensively in the 2009 Cup run, as he has been in the playoffs in general and throughout all our Cup runs. But in the regular season he has not been used in these roles unless Crosby is injured. Watch him play this season, and you’ll see what I mean.

Yzerman and Sakic have longevity, but when all is said and done I take 71 over both.

Oh, and Malkin is also a top leader on the Pens...he has led through example and risen to the occasion at key times countless times for us.

Not a terrible amount of PK time per game at 28 seconds, 49 seconds, 1:05 at his max, then back down to 15 seconds, then 4 seconds, then 2 seconds.

Reads more like someone who was tested in the role and decided against.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Not a terrible amount of PK time per game at 28 seconds, 49 seconds, 1:05 at his max, then back down to 15 seconds, then 4 seconds, then 2 seconds.

Reads more like someone who was tested in the role and decided against.

There’s no reason to use an all-time offensive great in a significant PK role. The point is that he can, and was very good at it.

 

[VanIslander]

There’s no reason to use an all-time offensive great in a significant PK role.

Please. Let us not conflate the penalty kill with backchecking and forechecking.

I am wholly unimpressed with Malkin's checking for the near 50% of the regular 5-on-5 shifts in which his team does not have the puck, though he forechecks more than backchecks (but Dino Ciccarelli forechecked liked crazy but is crucified around here for not backchecking often).

Malkin rarely has shown the sort of puckhound hunger that Forsberg exemplified at both ends of the ice.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Please. Let us not conflate the penalty kill with backchecking and forechecking.

I am wholly unimpressed with Malkin's checking for the near 50% of the regular 5-on-5 shifts in which his team does not have the puck, though he forechecks more than backchecks (but Dino Ciccarelli forechecked liked crazy but is crucified around here for not backchecking often).

Malkin rarely has shown the sort of puckhound hunger that Forsberg exemplified at both ends of the ice.

We’re just going to have to disagree here. Malkin is a big man, who is best when carrying the puck at speed through the middle. He is plenty tenacious on the puck (this is one of his calling cards...), and is probably Pittsburgh’s best player in board battles, and that includes Crosby. That’s coming from Rick Tocchet too, who has seen a thing or two. At his best, he is one of the best in the league at takeaways and is a beast defensively in the biggest games. Is he always as complete a player as Yzerman and Sakic? No. But good enough, and his offensive ability more than makes up for the difference.

 

[VanIslander]

Is he always as complete a player as Yzerman and Sakic? No. But good enough, and his offensive ability more than makes up for the difference.

No. No. And... no.

 

[Retire91]

One season can be argued but that is partially because Malkin missed a few games in 11/12. PPG dominance was similar. Their other best seasons are comparable, Malkin may have the better higher end seasons.

Not sure why Sakic playing during the "peak clutch and grab" bears any relevance, Malkin's best season was during an even lower scoring year for the top end offensive players.

That's fair I honestly don't have the personal time and drive to really go into the deep dive season by season for comparison and further debate. But on the surface and in my opinion peak Yzerman was more dominant than peak Malkin. But if fact debunks my opinion that is all good too. Malkin is fascinating as a player and I was always excited since the day we found out he was coming over. I feel like Malkin will leave an incredible legacy on the game, but not on the same level as someone like Sakic/Yzerman. If Malkin leaves the game with like Jagr numbers then its a different story.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

No. No. And... no.

Glad that’s settled. Call back when Malkin hits 13-1500 games played, many of them in a higher scoring league.

 

[seventieslord]

Glad that’s settled. Call back when Malkin hits 13-1500 games played, many of them in a higher scoring league.

No, you call back when that happens. It's a big "if" given his age and history.

He still has the chance to put together a Sakic or Yzerman level career, but it's unlikely.

There's a chance you'll be proven right but you sure as hell haven't been yet, and you certainly wouldn't be acting like you already have been, or that 1300-1500 games is a certainty.

 

[GMR]

Top-10s in scoring seasons...

Malkin
Goals 2nd, 4th, 4th
Assists 1st, 3rd, 6th

Dionne
Goals 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 9th, 10th
Assists 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 9th, 9th, 9th

Note: Both of Dionne's 2nds were behind Bossy. And no one has scored more points over the 1975-1985 span than Dionne. He played with no other HHOF forward on the team.

It is hard to see Malkin surpassing Dionne, a whole tier below Sakic, Yzerman. So the premise of this thread is unfair. Malkin is K.O'd.

The problem with Dionne is the limited playoff resume. He only played in 49 playoff games. I understand it's a team sport, but it's hard to compare him with similarly tiered centers on such a resume. I'm not sure that I'd rank him above Malkin. Probably not on first thought.

 

[GMR]

Reading your posts, it’s doubtful you’ve watched much of Malkin. Malkin was superb defensively when he came over in 2006, and was used in that role defensively and on the penalty kill by the Russian national teams and by Penguins coaches early in his career. He has superior anticipation and awareness of the next play, and the physical strength to take the puck or run a guy over. He was outstanding defensively in the 2009 Cup run, as he has been in the playoffs in general and throughout all our Cup runs. But in the regular season he has not been used in these roles unless Crosby is injured. Watch him play this season, and you’ll see what I mean.

Yzerman and Sakic have longevity, but when all is said and done I take 71 over both.

Oh, and Malkin is also a top leader on the Pens...he has led through example and risen to the occasion at key times countless times for us.

I've watched enough. I'm not saying he's a terrible defensive forward. I'm saying it's not one of his strengths as a player. He likely doesn't kill penalties because he cannot win a faceoff to save his life. Although, he's better this season so far in faceoffs. We'll see where the numbers are at the end of the year.