Malkin VS Ovechkin

[Jeffrey]

Kozlov has 366 points in 599 games. I wouldn't quite call him one of the worst Russian busts when 1st round russians like Kharlamov, Nabokov, Morozov, Zyuzin, Safronov, Kuleshov, Alexeev, Yakubov, Vorobiev, Smirnov, Kryukov and Mikhnov have all done worse then Kozlov. Antropov was also better then a good majority of them.

To say Malkins upside is hart winner or art ross winner and down side is a 2nd liner then I think I am being more then fair.

Kozlov is very skilled .. but he has no desire ..
btw I dont consider Antropov,Kozlov 2nd liner on good team maybe 4th liner or scratch...
but I do agree with your upside.. downside ..

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Kozlov is very skilled .. but he has no desire ..
btw I dont consider Antropov,Kozlov 2nd liner on good team maybe 4th liner or scratch...
but I do agree with your upside.. downside ..

Antropov or Kozlov are 4th liners or scratches? You are way way off mark.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

where did I said that ..
don't put word in my mouth !!

I didn't put words in your mouth. Or if I did so it is a misunderstanding.

He said something to the effect of: maybe Malkin will be a Fedorov/Sakic, maybe he'll be a Kozlov/Antropov.

You asked why he was down on Malkin.

Do I get all of this right?

To me, the fact he gave two scenarios, both of them suggesting that Malkin will be at the very least an average NHL forward and possibly at the level of two of the league's best centers, and that you still came away with the impression that he was down on Malkin is completely illogical.

If anything, Jason was very nice, and not "down" on the guy in any way, shape or form.

Kozlov and Antropov are both one of the biggest busts ever from Russia ..
both are considered average to poor skater ..
both play when they want to play ...
and both can't raise their game when their teams need it !!

Malkin from ALL the games i've seen .. he's the total opposite of this ..

If you want to list the biggest busts out of Russia, why don't you start with the players who can't even cut it? There's a load of Russians who can't even skate a lick in the AHL and never make the NHL.

Viktor Kozlov throughouit his NHL career has an average of 50 points per 82 games. That's really not bad at all. Yeah, he pisses me off with all the issues he has but that's still a very decent player.

As a worse-case scenario, I don't see how this can be an insult.

Good for you if you like Malkin from ALL the games you have seen (although I disagree that he's better than Ovechkin) but all those games are from a couple of tournaments, some of it from junior stuff against kids who can't shave.

I want to see what he will do in the NHL.

Malkin from ALL the games i've seen .. he's the total opposite of this ..
he's fast (like it or not) ... he always gives his best .. and he always seem to me(again the game i've seen) better by a fair margin than Ovechkin ..
while Ovechkin is considered the next coming russian ..
Malkin is considered the next russian bust .. explain me that ..

I'd have trouble explaining you that. Since a significant number of posters seem to be under the impression that Malkin is better than Ovechkin by a fair margin. They are sorely mistaken, IMO.

All this to say, I think there's a pretty nice Malkin bandwagon going on and if anything, at this point he may be a bit overhyped.

I'm not saying Malkin can't bust but I have hard time beleiving it can't go both way with him and Ovechkin!

It can. Who said otherwise?

Federov is maybe very high on you(I fully understand) but to think that Malkin can't reach that level is beyond stupidity .. and I always or let's say most the time agree with you when you rant against prospect that go overrated ..

I didn't say that he couldn't reach this level. (they're different players and not a good comparison anyway. But yeah, maybe he could reach that level of impact)

But since you mention it, I think that is highly unlikely. Fedorov is a world-class talent, who had a phenomenal first half of a career.

Kudos to Malkin if he can ever be as good as Sergei was in the NHL. Few players can. Personally, I haven't seen the tools in him to be that good.

Anyway, I think if someone is under the impression that he can be as good as Fedorov or as bad as Kozlov, I think it's pretty flattering. Certainly not a negative statement if that's the worse one anticipates for Malkin.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Crosby-Kariya is one of the better comparisons I've heard.

I doubt Crosby would be hyped so much if his upside was only Kariya. People expect Crosby to become THE premiere player in the nhl, something kariya has not come close to. But what do I know, i've seen very little of crosby.

 

[espo*]

Yeah, maybe it would be better for another thread indeed.

You basically nailed it. I think he's a dangerous player but I don't see how that makes him anymore of a leader than Jaromir Jagr (who also ironically ended up with a captaincy at one point, so what do I know?)

The player that completely transformed Colorado's locker room attitude, IMO, was Patrick Roy. It was from that point that this team became contender material. Joe can thank his lucky star that goaltenders aren't allowed to wear the C or this ridiculous tag as a leader wouldn't ever have surfaced.

I see what you're saying and agree that from the moment Roy arrived Colorado became a different team, a stanley cup team.But does them becoming that type of team have more to do with goaltenders being so important to a teams success(especially in modern hockey) then with any great leadership abilities on roy's part?

Teams know they have to have superior goaltending to go all the way,i think it's natural for their confidence to go up with Patrick roy on board.conversely,skater talent is needed also of course.Without Sakic and Forsberg on hand would Colorado have won the cup? would they have been confident going into the playoffs even with Roy on board?Or should i say would they have the same level of confidence going into the playoffs without joe and peter but roy on board?? I doubt it.I won't disagree Roy was pivotal to their sucess both on the ice and in the locker room and he's a leader but...........i think a guy like Sakic is too,maybe not as much but still very important.
I remember when playing minor hockey we had a guy who was easily our most talented skater,the kind of guy who would at least get a goal a game usually and then have his BIG games.........he almost won games for us on his own.He was a quiet kid but man did we look to that guy to come through with us.He did'nt say a peep usually but we most definately looked to him big time.........when he was on we all tended to be on,it was a natural result of his talent.If he was a complainer and sulker all his goals would'nt have mattered,he would have done us as much harm as good probably but he was'nt......he was just quiet......... but he could play and...........he led us by his play....he did'nt have to say a word and he usually did'nt.To me that's leading in the finest sense and he sure did for us.
Anyway,i get your point and agree Roy was instrumental and led them but i think Sakic was too and definately led them along with other guys. Thanks for responding.

 

[afinogenov]

After watching the WC in Austria, I have to say that Malkin is a great center but Ovechkin is the better forward but Malkin can control the game (he seems to play very mature). Ovechkin can skate a little bit better and has a great scoring touch! He's the NHL'S future. Probably there will be a Ovechkin-Malkin line in the future, which would be just awesome after these great performance at the WC !!!!!!!!!

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Well, if he was already better than Thornton, he wouldn't be rated at HF at all.

What makes you say that? I have no doubt Ovechkin will be better than Thornton, I'd venture to guess most people would agree on that, but he's rated.

If you read the HF ratings, a 10 is 'generational talent,' suitable for only the likes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, maybe Forsberg and Jagr. A 9.5 is a fingernail away from a 10 and indicates that a player might reach that level. With that said, Malkin, by popular demand for a 9.5, would have to be better than Thornton. Maybe not by much, but it's just the way things look.

 

[espo*]

I doubt Crosby would be hyped so much if his upside was only Kariya. People expect Crosby to become THE premiere player in the nhl, something kariya has not come close to. But what do I know, i've seen very little of crosby.

He was kinda on his way though before being cross-checked to the face into hockey oblivion,he's never been the same since.At the time of the cross-check though he was becoming about as dangerous a sucker on offense as there was in the game, .We don't know how great a career Kariya could have had........a shame.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

He was kinda on his way though before being cross-checked to the face into hockey oblivion,he's never been the same since.At the time of the cross-check though he was becoming about as dangerous a sucker on offense as there was in the game, .We don't know how great a career Kariya could have had........a shame.

Kariya was good, very good at times, but he was never going to be a top 5 player in the NHL.

 

[Epsilon]

Kariya was good, very good at times, but he was never going to be a top 5 player in the NHL.

It's arguable he was a top 5 player in the mid-late 90s. He was certainly top 10. The best players during that period were Hasek, Jagr, Lemieux, Lindros, Forsberg, Selanne, Sakic, Kariya, and Bure.

 

[espo*]

Kariya was good, very good at times, but he was never going to be a top 5 player in the NHL.

You don't think? i'm not so sure.........offensive wizardry(which he certainly had in spades) will get you there sometimes.He certainly never got the chance to show us.......he was creeping into top five i think at the time of "the incident". people around the league were going bonkers about his play and for good reason.His loss at Nagano was considered a major,major blow To Team Canada.......he was looked at by the press and fans here as our biggest weapon going into the olympics.people have forgotten what a dynamic talent he was before that shot...................extremely dangerous guy!!!

 

[Skylab]

What makes you say that? I have no doubt Ovechkin will be better than Thornton, I'd venture to guess most people would agree on that, but he's rated.

If you read the HF ratings, a 10 is 'generational talent,' suitable for only the likes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, maybe Forsberg and Jagr. A 9.5 is a fingernail away from a 10 and indicates that a player might reach that level. With that said, Malkin, by popular demand for a 9.5, would have to be better than Thornton. Maybe not by much, but it's just the way things look.

But there is a huge a difference between "if he was already better than Thornton" (tom_servo's point in reference to your original assertion that "Malkin is better than Thornton") and your statement of Ovechkin will be better than Thornton.

Neither of those players is better than Joe at this point. They both may or may not be better than him in the future. As to the idea that most people would agree that Ovechkin is better than Joe, I disagree. I would also suggest that a 9.5 for Malkin wouldn't mean that he is already better than Thornton.

A comparison could be made to when Joe was drafted. He was hyped and the next big thing and I'm sure would have received a high rating by HF. Did that mean that he was automatically better than Forsberg, Federov and other established NHL centres? No it meant he had the potential to be as good as them or even better some day (just as he had the possibility of crashing and burning as an NHL player due to injury, attitude, or the simple fact that the scouts had it wrong).

Bottom line is that despite hype and potential, not every great prospect pans out and to already claim they are better than established stars is premature. Let them prove something first...

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

If you read the HF ratings, a 10 is 'generational talent,' suitable for only the likes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, maybe Forsberg and Jagr.

Jagr and Forsberg, as good as they are/were, have never dominated the game like Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr. Even Forsberg was never in Jagr's league until Jagr stopped caring. Being compared to the first three you mentioned should never be expected of a prospect.

 

[Mothra]

Kariya was good, very good at times, but he was never going to be a top 5 player in the NHL.

Not sure I agree with that.....or at least in terms of forwards.....there was a time when he was in the top 5 discussion IMO

 

[helicecopter]

I think there's a pretty nice Malkin bandwagon going on and if anything..

eh eh..better late than never!..and this post will probably add to this theory.. (to my excuse, i was one of the doubters of the ‘Ovechkin is and will be definitely better’ party at the time of the draft already, just considering their progressing curve)

Jason MacIsaac upside/downside is absolutely reasonable.
But I don’t like his comparison (Linden, or was it only about skating, speed?) and Jovanovski = Norris’ one.

Malkin has much more pure talent and creativity than Linden to consider them similar (even if that doesn’t mean it’s SURE he will be much better).

Kozlov biggest problem was/is his slow reaction. He doesn’t react quickly enough to what happens on the ice (be it a problem of brain or of physical reaction’s time). Malkin did some things in the games I saw that you can’t see/do without a MUCH quicker (than Kozlov) reading/reaction time.
That’s the main, key difference, but there would be other ones obviously (and even if the comparison was not made by styles, this difference alone takes away Kozlov’s biggest limit)

For what I’ve seen at this WCH (not enough probably) I’ve problems to say Ovechkin is the better player now, let alone in the future (and that’s not to criticize Alex). More confident and exposing yes, better I don’t know.
Malkin made my jaw drop at least 4 times in three games. Something no one else did for me in the games I saw of this tourney (obviously that doesn’t mean he was one of the best performers of the tourney..).
The last time an 18yrs old impressed me that much (even if in a different way, more because of effectiveness, consistency and strength of his plays than because of pure talent) at a WCH was more than ten years ago. His name: Jaromir Jagr.
That doesn’t assure Malkin will become that good, but I must say he seems to have more upside than Ovechkin to me.
Not as fast as Ove (I have not seen Kovalchuk-like acceleration by Alex though), he looks like a great passer; I think that’s his best asset.
And the year of difference could be nothing but could be something as well..he is still progressing at a higher rate (maybe because he has more things to improve, maybe because he just has more room for improvement?).

 

[Zoo]

I said I'd take Oveckin before the draft and I'll still take him now. But hey I'm happy with what we got.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

eh eh..better late than never!..and this post will probably add to this theory.. (to my excuse, i was one of the doubters of the ‘Ovechkin is and will be definitely better’ party at the time of the draft already, just considering their progressing curve)

Jason MacIsaac upside/downside is absolutely reasonable.
But I don’t like his comparison (Linden, or was it only about skating, speed?) and Jovanovski = Norris’ one.

Malkin has much more pure talent and creativity than Linden to consider them similar (even if that doesn’t mean it’s SURE he will be much better).

Kozlov biggest problem was/is his slow reaction. He doesn’t react quickly enough to what happens on the ice (be it a problem of brain or of physical reaction’s time). Malkin did some things in the games I saw that you can’t see/do without a MUCH quicker (than Kozlov) reading/reaction time.
That’s the main, key difference, but there would be other ones obviously (and even if the comparison was not made by styles, this difference alone takes away Kozlov’s biggest limit)

For what I’ve seen at this WCH (not enough probably) I’ve problems to say Ovechkin is the better player now, let alone in the future (and that’s not to criticize Alex). More confident and exposing yes, better I don’t know.
Malkin made my jaw drop at least 4 times in three games. Something no one else did for me in the games I saw of this tourney (obviously that doesn’t mean he was one of the best performers of the tourney..).
The last time an 18yrs old impressed me that much (even if in a different way, more because of effectiveness, consistency and strength of his plays than because of pure talent) at a WCH was more than ten years ago. His name: Jaromir Jagr.
That doesn’t assure Malkin will become that good, but I must say he seems to have more upside than Ovechkin to me.
Not as fast as Ove (I have not seen Kovalchuk-like acceleration by Alex though), he looks like a great passer; I think that’s his best asset.
And the year of difference could be nothing but could be something as well..he is still progressing at a higher rate (maybe because he has more things to improve, maybe because he just has more room for improvement?).

I was just talking about his skating....it is comparable to Trevor Linden in his day.

 

[EroCaps]

I doubt Crosby would be hyped so much if his upside was only Kariya. People expect Crosby to become THE premiere player in the nhl, something kariya has not come close to. But what do I know, i've seen very little of crosby.

If his upside were that of Kariya's best seasons he's still the surefire #1. I just don't see it w/Crosby. He's going to be very good, but what has he really accomplished outside of the Q? He was the 3rd or 4th best player on Canada's WJC team. So, next year he might be 1 or 2? If he's the next Gretzky, why isn't he already there? We're supposed to believe that the kid who has the skills to score over 150 pts in the NHL annually can't outplay Patrice Bergeron or Jeff Carter because of a couple years age gap? (Or Ovechkin/Malkin for the matter).

I mention Kariya because I recall his first few years in the league everyone had him pegged as it's next NA Golden Boy. He could do a handful of things with the puck that no one else could and had elite vision, skating, and a great shot. He'll just never be the fastest or strongest player. And the argument that Gretzky wasn't either is so antiquated. The average NHL player during that era was a pylon with skates w/almost half the ability the modern player has.

Maybe I need to be enlightened.

 

[Smart Alek]

Kariya was good, very good at times, but he was never going to be a top 5 player in the NHL.

Well, nice to see you solved that.

Jeez... there should be a way to set moderators to 'ignore.'

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Jagr and Forsberg, as good as they are/were, have never dominated the game like Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr. Even Forsberg was never in Jagr's league until Jagr stopped caring. Being compared to the first three you mentioned should never be expected of a prospect.

Even still, it's not the point... regardless of whether anyone should be compared to Lemieux, Gretzky or Orr, it's happening. Crosby and Lemieux were compared by Gretzky himself.

Just read th HF rating criteria. The point was that a 9.5 is a stone's throw away from a 10 (the caliber of Lemieux et al). If Malkin were to be a 9.5, he'd be expected to surpass Joe Thornton, no question. Thornton is not a 9.5, he's 8.5, 9 tops in terms of HF ratings. That's it, it's very simple.

And as a side note, I really don't think Jagr has ever been too far behind Lemieux or Gretzky.

 

[Genghis Keon]

If his upside were that of Kariya's best seasons he's still the surefire #1. I just don't see it w/Crosby. He's going to be very good, but what has he really accomplished outside of the Q? He was the 3rd or 4th best player on Canada's WJC team. So, next year he might be 1 or 2? If he's the next Gretzky, why isn't he already there? We're supposed to believe that the kid who has the skills to score over 150 pts in the NHL annually can't outplay Patrice Bergeron or Jeff Carter because of a couple years age gap? (Or Ovechkin/Malkin for the matter).

Well, if it wasn't for the lockout, both Bergeron (obviously) and Carter would be in the NHL, so Crosby would have been the best player on the team. And it's not like Carter and Bergeron outplayed Crosby by a whole lot anyway, at least in my view. Add to that, most Canadian draft eligible players that make the WJC team play sparingly. For instance, I'd say that Crosby's 16 y/o WJC (not to mention this past year, where Crosby did score a goal a game) was significantly better than Nash's 17 y/o WJC, and look what Nash has done since: Rocket Richard winner at 19, dominant at the World Championships at 20. You'd think the player who'd lead the NHL in goal scoring at 19 would be more than a 13th forward on a WJC team at 17 (especially in a non lockout year), right?

I also wouldn't say that Malkin or Ovechkin outplayed Crosby either (at least by any significant amount). The WJCs were supposed to be Ovechkin's tournament (especially considering it was his 19 y/o year), but HE was outplayed (or at the very least matched) by players like Carter and Bergeron, Bergeron being only two months older than Ovechkin. So if Bergeron outplaying Crosby while being two years older than him makes you question Crosby's potential, what does Bergeron outplaying Ovechkin while being two months older than him make you think about Ovechkin's potential? It stands to reason that you, a Caps fan, must be rather underwhelmed with him, or did I get your argument wrong?

 

[alecfromtherock]

You mean, hook a referee?

People would probaby freak out, say how classless Russians are, say that they don't want such players on their team, and of course, predict that valiant, classy Canadian players will split their skulls once they reach the NHL.

Unless the player is property of their team. Then they'd just say it doesn't matter and he'll be fine

I am sure you meant to say double hook and a shove to the linesman Vald.

I just hope you are not using Thornton as your ‘typical’ classy and valiant Canadian

Malkin Vs Thornton comparisons in skill might be OK but I do not want to see Malkin become a Brute such as Thornton.

Whenever the game restarts and the referees actually call the rules as written, Thornton would be in the Sin Bin more then he is on the ice(boarding & charging/ un-sportsman like conduct)

1 & 2 are pretty close in draft picks, it is not like a 1 and 30 for skill difference.

Shaq and Crosby are simular in what fashion? It must be their size and physical dominance OR their proven professional talent. Shaq works just as hard off the court as he does on making him one of the most likable sports personalities out there.

In the US it is ludicrous to compare ANY hockey player to Shaq, let alone a Canadian born hockey player.

AO and Malkin are premiere player’s whom have shown at the international level(mens) they can handle their own.

Instant NHL impact? Any reasonable person knows better then to state absolutes when it comes to hyped/untested(at the NHL level and style) prospects.

After all of the prospects have their rookie season then all of the comparisons can be made.

Maturity? It could just be the ritalin.

Russia is more know for their Vodka

 

[Vatican Roulette]

Both physical playmakers, if Malkins offense doesn't translate I could see alot of comparable traits with Antropov.

true, although Malkin is a much better skater and has knees made of bone, not butter.

 

[Vatican Roulette]

He's down on him because he thinks the guy could possibly be a Sakic/Fedorov player or a Kozlov/Antropov?

What would it take not to be down on Malkin? Garantee that he will be as good as Mario Lemieux?

I bet you if Malkin knows his Russian hockey, he'll be damn proud to be put in the same sentence with Sergei Fedorov.

People expect way too much out of prospects around here.

also, so will ovechkin. Fedorov is one of the best russian hockey players ever.

Its in the same mindset of saying crosby's name with Gretzky's.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

true, although Malkin is a much better skater and has knees made of bone, not butter.

Yes, Malkin is a better skater, Antropov has good hockey sense, is big and can play physical. That is what I was comparing Malkin to.