Malkin VS Ovechkin

[Rabid Ranger]

I don't think he's that much overrated. If anything, it's finally swung back, because he didn't get a whole lot of it till a few months back. If anything, Semin's put out production at all levels, something that other prospects can't say.


And to respond to the Malkin being ready for this coming year, I am pretty sure the Penguin Organization will want him to come, and he definitely will play adequately, but development wise, he could still use a year of seasoning and growth. This strike year benefits him a whole bunch, because he definitely wouldn't have made the jump. But, I still feel that in a NA game, where the ice isn't as wide, and there's a lot more clutching and grabbing (for the time being) he's not going to be as effective as he could be in two or three years. Yeah, he should do well. I've said before that a traffic cone could look alright on Mario's wing, which probably will be where he will play. So any strength deficiency could be masked a bit being next to a guy like Mario. The debate on whether a year more of RSL or AHL or whatever would be better is for another time.

Define "put[ting] out production. I don't think Semin has proved anything conclusively, at least at the NHL level.

 

[espo*]

Yeah, but there's not just that. Mats Sundin was at his best lean... and on the wing. He was also gunning a lot more for offense and padding at the time, as were pretty much all Nordiques, including Joe "people think I'm a leader" Sakic.

Sundin is a completely different player now. Much less flashy, heavier, more well rounded and taking center responsibilities.

Why so down on Joe? I've seen you take on his leadership mantle several times over the past few months.Would be interesting to know why you think he's a dangerous player but not a leader.Of course i may have to start a new thread about this as it obviously has nothing to do with Malkin or Ovechkin.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Why so down on Joe? I've seen you take on his leadership mantle several times over the past few months.Would be interesting to know why you think he's a dangerous player but not a leader.Of course i may have to start a new thread about this as it obviously has nothing to do with Malkin or Ovechkin.

Joe Sakic goes out and performs night in and night out at a high level, that is the only form of leadership you will get out of him. From what I remember most Avalanche fans said he is really quiet, not really a player who can motivate a team without playing.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

And yet you can say he's better then Thornton? Thornton is one of the top centers in the game today. I don't think there is an objective hockey mind that could take Malkin over Thornton right now. It just doesn't make sense. A proven 100 point scorer who dominates game against someone who hasn't even played in the NHL yet... he may prove to be better, but I doubt it - a #1 center most likely - but him even being comparable to Thornton dominance is going waaaay to far at this point.

Well, if people are considering him a 9.5A, he better be above Thornton.

 

[tom_servo]

Well, if people are considering him a 9.5A, he better be above Thornton.

Well, if he was already better than Thornton, he wouldn't be rated at HF at all.

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

Over-react much?

my post to refresh your memory
"IMO that statement is ridiculous and simply indicative of the pro-prospect kool-aid that people drink before posting on HF.
The kid looks promising and seems to have a great future in front of him, but lets acutally let him play in the league before we start making comparisons like this one.
We need to remember that Joe has surpassed 100 points and at 25 is one of the top young stars in the game. Malkin may get there; then again he may not..."

Find the insult? I called your statement ridiculous, not you. There is a difference between saying you are an idiot and saying that what you did was idiotic or saying that you are smart or saying that you did something smart

The first sentence was not meant as an insult and it's not my problem if you chose to take it as one. The rest of my post simply uses logic and fact to debate your assertion that Malkin is better than Thornton. I would add that you didn't quantify your opinion in any way and have already admitted that you've seen Malkin play once.

as for your post; pot calling the kettle black...

You also said something about some given type of "Kool-Ade" I drank before posting... I was in a bad mood, though, not a big deal.

 

[EroCaps]

He looks alot less flashy and more calm on the ice kind of like Sakic while Ovechkin looks like Roenick when he's on the ice.

Maturity? It could just be the ritalin.

 

[Lionel Hutz]

What ever happened to stockwizard?

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Malkin - 9C

There is no reason why he can't be a player like Sakic or Fedorov but there is also no reason why he can't end up like Kozlov or Antropov.

 

[espo*]

Joe Sakic goes out and performs night in and night out at a high level, that is the only form of leadership you will get out of him. From what I remember most Avalanche fans said he is really quiet, not really a player who can motivate a team without playing.

Nice evaluation,i agree.That's leadership though isn't it? It was in salt lake that's for sure....................i'm glad he took the bull by the horns and "led" that game.I think any conn smythe winner is a leader in a certain sense,even the devil claude Lemieux himself.Because is the end it's what the guy does on the ice that counts.I'm not sure how vocal Yzerman is either, he does'nt strike me as the mark messier stare you down and win win one for the gipper speeches type either..........yet he's considered one of the best leaders in the game.Leaders come in all shapes and sizes to me.Vocal rah rah types? they are simply one kind to me.

 

[sunb]

Malkin - 9C

There is no reason why he can't be a player like Sakic or Fedorov but there is also no reason why he can't end up like Kozlov or Antropov.

I think Viktor Kozlov is a perfect comparison for Malkin. Kozlov was a highly talented top 5 pick and people believed he had extraordinary darkhorse potential and was seen as a Russian Lemieux that may have been better than Daigle in that draft year. Even though I don't think Malkin will bust as much as Kozlov did, I think it is a very valid comparison.

However, I think Malkin will be better than Antropov. I try to not be biased when I talk about the Leafs but Antropov is trash.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Why so down on Joe? I've seen you take on his leadership mantle several times over the past few months.Would be interesting to know why you think he's a dangerous player but not a leader.Of course i may have to start a new thread about this as it obviously has nothing to do with Malkin or Ovechkin.

Yeah, maybe it would be better for another thread indeed.

You basically nailed it. I think he's a dangerous player but I don't see how that makes him anymore of a leader than Jaromir Jagr (who also ironically ended up with a captaincy at one point, so what do I know?)

The player that completely transformed Colorado's locker room attitude, IMO, was Patrick Roy. It was from that point that this team became contender material. Joe can thank his lucky star that goaltenders aren't allowed to wear the C or this ridiculous tag as a leader wouldn't ever have surfaced.

 

[Anksun]

After the recent tournament, i'd pick Malkin without that much of an hesitation. But of course, taking a player base on a few games isnt always the best thing to do. And yes, i'm aware Ovechkin was very good in this tournament, but i liked Malkin's game much more, really (in those few games).

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

I think Viktor Kozlov is a perfect comparison for Malkin. Kozlov was a highly talented top 5 pick and people believed he had extraordinary darkhorse potential and was seen as a Russian Lemieux that may have been better than Daigle in that draft year. Even though I don't think Malkin will bust as much as Kozlov did, I think it is a very valid comparison.

However, I think Malkin will be better than Antropov. I try to not be biased when I talk about the Leafs but Antropov is trash.

Yeah, Viktor Kozlov was a waste of talent. So many nice tools but looks completely disinterested. Fortunately, so far Malkin looks to be more involved in the play, which is a big difference. He also seems to be more mobile. But regardless, Kozlov is a good cautionary tale that pimply prospect lovers should keep in mind when it comes to always taking the younger player simply on the basis of the "potential" junk tag.

Other than the fact they are both tall, lanky Euros, I don't see the Antropov comparison at all. I disagree that Nik is trash, though. He's not that bad, really.

 

[Skk82]

I think Viktor Kozlov is a perfect comparison for Malkin. Kozlov was a highly talented top 5 pick and people believed he had extraordinary darkhorse potential and was seen as a Russian Lemieux that may have been better than Daigle in that draft year. Even though I don't think Malkin will bust as much as Kozlov did, I think it is a very valid comparison.

you're wrong in many aspects. first of all, kozlov wasn't a top 5 draft pick, he was selected 6th overall. malkin was seen as a potential #1 pick in an 'average' year but there was the superstar, franchise player of ovechkin's caliber available.

as mentioned, malkin shows more on-ice motivation and developed a little more consistently (stat-wise) than v. kozlov has, to this point. i think malkin could pan out into a hybrid of patrick marleau and vinny lecavalier, as far as size, speed, vision, playmking and two-way play is concerned.

 

[Skylab]

you're wrong in many aspects. first of all, kozlov wasn't a top 5 draft pick, he was selected 6th overall. malkin was seen as a potential #1 pick in an 'average' year but there was the superstar, franchise player of ovechkin's caliber available.

as mentioned, malkin shows more on-ice motivation and developed a little more consistently (stat-wise) than v. kozlov has, to this point. i think malkin could pan out into a hybrid of patrick marleau and vinny lecavalier, as far as size, speed, vision, playmking and two-way play is concerned.

Just curious, but other than his outrageous claim that Kozlov was a top 5 pick when he was actually taken 6th what are the rest of the many aspects that Jovanovski=Norris had wrong?

He stated that Kozlov was seen as a dark horse in his draft year. I remember that to be true..

By the way the five players taken ahead of Kozlov were Daigle, Pronger, Gratton, Kariya and Niedermayer

 

[Chimaera]

Define "put[ting] out production. I don't think Semin has proved anything conclusively, at least at the NHL level.

Well, at times in the NHL, he showed he can compete with the best, if not dominate. While his point totals weren't amazing, they were alright for his first time in the League. They showed at least a good base to expect an improvement on the numbers. More what I'm suggesting is that Semin, unlike Malkin, Ovechkin, Crosby, and some other prospects has produced well in the AHL, RSL and decently for a rookie in the NHL. That's not to say others can't or wouldn't, but just that he has. His pace at the end of the year in the AHL was ridiculous, and his RSL totals this year prior to a nagging injury were pretty impressive as well. Not to even mention a WC performance (in the games he played) where he held his own in a pretty talented lineup.

I'm not trying to say that he's proved anything conclusively, just that most of the signs (production in other leagues) and some of the games at times in the last NHL season showed he's going to be a heck of a player. Hopefully.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Yeah, maybe it would be better for another thread indeed.

You basically nailed it. I think he's a dangerous player but I don't see how that makes him anymore of a leader than Jaromir Jagr (who also ironically ended up with a captaincy at one point, so what do I know?)

The player that completely transformed Colorado's locker room attitude, IMO, was Patrick Roy. It was from that point that this team became contender material. Joe can thank his lucky star that goaltenders aren't allowed to wear the C or this ridiculous tag as a leader wouldn't ever have surfaced.

Both physical playmakers, if Malkins offense doesn't translate I could see alot of comparable traits with Antropov.

 

[sunb]

you're wrong in many aspects. first of all, kozlov wasn't a top 5 draft pick, he was selected 6th overall. malkin was seen as a potential #1 pick in an 'average' year but there was the superstar, franchise player of ovechkin's caliber available.

Daigle

 

[Big McLargehuge]

All I'm going to say is that both teams are extremely lucky to have such talents in their system.

It's going to be a fun ride seeing these two develop.

 

[Jeffrey]

Malkin - 9C

There is no reason why he can't be a player like Sakic or Fedorov but there is also no reason why he can't end up like Kozlov or Antropov.

why are you so down on him .. don't get it ...
actually this is as crap as you saying that
crosby will top at kariya max
but there is no reason why he can't end up like Daigle ...

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

why are you so down on him .. don't get it ...
actually this is as crap as you saying that
crosby will top at kariya max
but there is no reason why he can't end up like Daigle ...

He's down on him because he thinks the guy could possibly be a Sakic/Fedorov player or a Kozlov/Antropov?

What would it take not to be down on Malkin? Garantee that he will be as good as Mario Lemieux?

I bet you if Malkin knows his Russian hockey, he'll be damn proud to be put in the same sentence with Sergei Fedorov.

People expect way too much out of prospects around here.

 

[EroCaps]

why are you so down on him .. don't get it ...
actually this is as crap as you saying that
crosby will top at kariya max
but there is no reason why he can't end up like Daigle ...

Crosby-Kariya is one of the better comparisons I've heard.

 

[Jeffrey]

He's down on him because he thinks the guy could possibly be a Sakic/Fedorov player or a Kozlov/Antropov?

What would it take not to be down on Malkin? Garantee that he will be as good as Mario Lemieux?

I bet you if Malkin knows his Russian hockey, he'll be damn proud to be put in the same sentence with Sergei Fedorov.

People expect way too much out of prospects around here.

where did I said that ..
don't put word in my mouth !!
Kozlov and Antropov are both one of the biggest busts ever from Russia ..
both are considered average to poor skater ..
both play when they want to play ...
and both can't raise their game when their teams need it !!

Malkin from ALL the games i've seen .. he's the total opposite of this ..
he's fast (like it or not) ... he always gives his best .. and he always seem to me(again the game i've seen) better by a fair margin than Ovechkin ..
while Ovechkin is considered the next coming russian ..
Malkin is considered the next russian bust .. explain me that ..
I'm not saying Malkin can't bust but I have hard time beleiving it can't go both way with him and Ovechkin!
Federov is maybe very high on you(I fully understand) but to think that Malkin can't reach that level is beyond stupidity .. and I always or let's say most the time agree with you when you rant against prospect that go overrated ..
but Malkin sold me on all his game I've seen of him .. while it's was the other way with Ovechkin .. and I'm no caps or pens or anything homer btw ..

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

where did I said that ..
don't put word in my mouth !!
Kozlov and Antropov are both one of the biggest busts ever from Russia ..
both are considered average to poor skater ..
both play when they want to play ...
and both can't raise their game when their teams need it !!

Malkin from ALL the games i've seen .. he's the total opposite of this ..
he's fast (like it or not) ... he always gives his best .. and he always seem to me(again the game i've seen) better by a fair margin than Ovechkin ..
while Ovechkin is considered the next coming russian ..
Malkin is considered the next russian bust .. explain me that ..
I'm not saying Malkin can't bust but I have hard time beleiving it can't go both way with him and Ovechkin!
Federov is maybe very high on you(I fully understand) but to think that Malkin can't reach that level is beyond stupidity .. and I always or let's say most the time agree with you when you rant against prospect that go overrated ..
but Malkin sold me on all his game I've seen of him .. while it's was the other way with Ovechkin .. and I'm no caps or pens or anything homer btw ..

Kozlov has 366 points in 599 games. I wouldn't quite call him one of the worst Russian busts when 1st round russians like Kharlamov, Nabokov, Morozov, Zyuzin, Safronov, Kuleshov, Alexeev, Yakubov, Vorobiev, Smirnov, Kryukov and Mikhnov have all done worse then Kozlov. Antropov was also better then a good majority of them.

To say Malkins upside is hart winner or art ross winner and down side is a 2nd liner then I think I am being more then fair.