Makar vs Hughes

[scallionjj11]

Might not be a poll worth having for Jack vs Cale as they'll be teammates next season hopefully!

Ouch

 

[Canucks1096]

Both Makar and Hughes are 9 games into to this season, I think we need to restart the conversation. I am just hoping all the generalizations about Hughes having a really weak shot and horrible defensively/liability in his own end will finally stop.

Hughes 1 G 5 A 6 P. 58% Corsi

Makar 0 G 8 A 8 P. 45% Corsi

Makar having a better team and 1st pp unit from game 1 and being a year old than Hughes. Hughes is definitely at least on par with Makar this year.

I am too lazy to dig up entry zone and exit Stats, assist shot per 60. Those type of stats. If someone can post it, that will be great.

 

[majormajor]

I am just hoping all the generalizations about Hughes having a really weak shot and horrible defensively/liability in his own end will finally stop.

Maybe try making that point in a thread about Hughes? A "vs" thread is just going to prompt partisans on either side to start dumping on the other player (and make hasty negative generalizations).

 

[Tralfamadore]

Both Makar and Hughes are 9 games into to this season, I think we need to restart the conversation. I am just hoping all the generalizations about Hughes having a really weak shot and horrible defensively/liability in his own end will finally stop.

Hughes 1 G 5 A 6 P. 58% Corsi

Makar 0 G 8 A 8 P. 45% Corsi

Makar having a better team and 1st pp unit from game 1 and being a year old than Hughes. Hughes is definitely at least on par with Makar this year.

I am too lazy to dig up entry zone and exit Stats, assist shot per 60. Those type of stats. If someone can post it, that will be great.

He's been better than Makar to start the year no argument from me.

 

[Bankerguy]

Hughes has played better in his own zone.
Makar has put up more points on a better team with first pp time.
Hughes has better advanced stats

I think slight edge goes to Hughes.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Hughes has played better in his own zone.
Makar has put up more points on a better team with first pp time.
Hughes has better advanced stats

I think slight edge goes to Hughes.

It’s Hughes by a mile. I could be a PPG player too if I got that much power play time with MacKinnon and Rantanen. Virtually all of Makar’s points are secondary. Meanwhile Makar is given soft 3rd pairing minutes at 5 on 5 and still a liability in his own zone.

Hughes actually creates his own offense on the power play and at 5 on 5, not to mention at a very impressive rate. And Hughes is miles better defensively.

And most people thought Makar was guaranteed to be better defensively than Hughes solely because Makar is a bit heavier and an inch taller

The Avs board is actually discussing whether or not they should send Makar down to the minors right now - he’s been that bad.

 

[koyvoo]

114 votes for Ma'kar (4th overall RD)
99 votes for Uuuuus (1st overall C)

19 games in the NHL, 1 goal, 14 assists, 15 points, +2*
8 games in the NHL 1 goal, 1 assist, 2 points, -4

But Cale Makar plays for the Avalanche and is 1 year 5 months 16 days older so....
obviously Jack Hughes is the correct choice here (did i do this right? lol)

*play-offs included

This is a discussion about Makar vs Quinn Hughes, not Jack Hughes.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

This is a discussion about Makar vs Quinn Hughes, not Jack Hughes.

Noticed it a second ago and deleted my post, guess i wasn't quick enough thou....

 

[Didalee Hed]

He's been better than Makar to start the year no argument from me.

And it’s just a small sample. It will be exciting watching both of these talents year in and year out. Makar went one pick before Pettersson right? If Pettersson falls to earth a little and Makar reaches for the stars, avs may well have taken the right guy in terms of bpa, never mind by positional need.

 

[tucker3434]

It’s Hughes by a mile. I could be a PPG player too if I got that much power play time with MacKinnon and Rantanen. Virtually all of Makar’s points are secondary. Meanwhile Makar is given soft 3rd pairing minutes at 5 on 5 and still a liability in his own zone.

Hughes actually creates his own offense on the power play and at 5 on 5, not to mention at a very impressive rate. And Hughes is miles better defensively.

And most people thought Makar was guaranteed to be better defensively than Hughes solely because Makar is a bit heavier and an inch taller

The Avs board is actually discussing whether or not they should send Makar down to the minors right now - he’s been that bad.

Whoa boy. That a slightly slanted take to say the least. I feel I need to clear up a few things before you call this one 9 games into their careers.

Makar is on the second pairing. He’s 4th in TOI among defensemen at 5v5. His minutes vary from game to game. In the past 4 games he was 1st, 6th, 6th, and 3rd in TOI among defensemen. What does that tell you? Probably nothing at all at this point. But believe me when I tell you, whichever line has Barberio on it is the 3rd.

Yes, he’s being deployed in mostly offensive situations. That’s generally how you handle a rookie like him. Hughes is getting more o zone starts too. That’s just the smart move.

And yes, there is one guy on our board that has said he wants to send him down if he doesn’t improve. His idea wasn’t well received. That’s the extent of the discussion.

All in all, we’d like to see him play better and know he’s capable of much more than he’s shown. We can be pretty confident in that because we’ve already seen it in last year’s playoffs. The really scary part is, what happens when our nearly-ppg rookie defender actually starts playing well?

 

[Spilot23]

Whoa boy. That a slightly slanted take to say the least. I feel I need to clear up a few things before you call this one 9 games into their careers.

Makar is on the second pairing. He’s 4th in TOI among defensemen at 5v5. His minutes vary from game to game. In the past 4 games he was 1st, 6th, 6th, and 3rd in TOI among defensemen. What does that tell you? Probably nothing at all at this point. But believe me when I tell you, whichever line has Barberio on it is the 3rd.

Yes, he’s being deployed in mostly offensive situations. That’s generally how you handle a rookie like him. Hughes is getting more o zone starts too. That’s just the smart move.

And yes, there is one guy on our board that has said he wants to send him down if he doesn’t improve. His idea wasn’t well received. That’s the extent of the discussion.

All in all, we’d like to see him play better and know he’s capable of much more than he’s shown. We can be pretty confident in that because we’ve already seen it in last year’s playoffs. The really scary part is, what happens when our nearly-ppg rookie defender actually starts playing well?

Can also add that our PP hasn't been that good lately having Girard taking Makar's spot. Right now Makar is playing a more conservative game where in the playoffs he would be on the rush or shoot the puck from everywhere while this year when he's on the rush he immediately drops the puck to someone he won't try to go past the defender with his speed when I believe he could do it sometimes. I would like for him to work on his slapper which Barrie was good at in the PP. That's probably a reason why our PP hasn't been that good pretty sure that other teams know that Makar won't shoot and will cover closely Mack and Rantanen.

But the guy that said by a mile ? Yeah no. I'm willing to say that Hughes is better right now but not by a mile. Makar hasn't been that bad but he has made so shaky or rookie mistakes something we aren't used to see compared to the playoffs. Most of Avs fans are disappointed because we know how good he was in the playoffs and we know that he can do better than what we've seen so far.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Whoa boy. That a slightly slanted take to say the least. I feel I need to clear up a few things before you call this one 9 games into their careers.

Makar is on the second pairing. He’s 4th in TOI among defensemen at 5v5. His minutes vary from game to game. In the past 4 games he was 1st, 6th, 6th, and 3rd in TOI among defensemen. What does that tell you? Probably nothing at all at this point. But believe me when I tell you, whichever line has Barberio on it is the 3rd.

Yes, he’s being deployed in mostly offensive situations. That’s generally how you handle a rookie like him. Hughes is getting more o zone starts too. That’s just the smart move.

And yes, there is one guy on our board that has said he wants to send him down if he doesn’t improve. His idea wasn’t well received. That’s the extent of the discussion.

All in all, we’d like to see him play better and know he’s capable of much more than he’s shown. We can be pretty confident in that because we’ve already seen it in last year’s playoffs. The really scary part is, what happens when our nearly-ppg rookie defender actually starts playing well?

Don’t get me wrong. I was on the “Canucks must draft Makar at all costs” bandwagon and I’m still a big fan of Makar.

I’m just really surprised to see how much Makar is struggling on the defensive side of the puck and how much Hughes is excelling defensively when basically everyone said the opposite would happen.

Hughes is an offensive dynamo but he’s equally valuable in the defensive zone because he’s so smart and so good at breaking up plays then quickly turning the play up the ice.

Makar is getting significantly softer minutes than Hughes. 60% of Makar’s starts are in the offensive zone while Hughes is getting a 50/50 split in his offensive and defensive zone deployment. That means Makar gets 20% more shifts in the offensive zone than Hughes which is huge.

Makar’s PDO is over 103 which means his production is more likely to regress than progress. While Hughes’ PDO is at 100.

Hughes is clearly better so far but I wouldn’t be surprised if Makar closes the gap. However it cannot be understated that when you compare their progression year by year, Quinn Hughes being a year younger has the much more explosive career trajectory. Hughes was already dominating the NCAA in his draft year when it took Makar until his draft+2 season to dominate the NCAA.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

It's been like 10 games lol

 

[mattydamon]

I had Makar for Calder (and on my fantasy team) but so far this year Hughes has been better. Hughes has taken over Edler's role on PP1 (finally) so I suspect the points will continue to roll in.

It's only been 10 games though so obviously lots of time for things to shake up but so far I will give the edge to the younger dman.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

It's been like 10 games lol

We know. Should we close this thread down until they’ve both played an acceptable amount of games for you to allow us to comment on their play?

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Well if Hughes was struggling a bit after 10 or so games and Makar was playing better than him, I’d argue it was too small a sample size. So I’m going to stick with that.
One thing I am surprised at with Hughes has been his defensive play though. Which leads me to believe that the really good skating defensemen can overcome their small size by anticipation and quickness. I mean we’ve watched big guys like Gubrandson struggle defensively. It seems like size is an advantage in clearing the front of the net but speed and smarts can help compensate. Of course having a big, smart great skater like say Dahlin is the best of both worlds but those guys are extremely rare.
Hughes defensive play has been by far the biggest surprise to date for me.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

We know. Should we close this thread down until they’ve both played an acceptable amount of games for you to allow us to comment on their play?

Yeah that's totally what I meant. Lock 'er up.

 

[tucker3434]

Don’t get me wrong. I was on the “Canucks must draft Makar at all costs” bandwagon and I’m still a big fan of Makar.

I’m just really surprised to see how much Makar is struggling on the defensive side of the puck and how much Hughes is excelling defensively when basically everyone said the opposite would happen.

Hughes is an offensive dynamo but he’s equally valuable in the defensive zone because he’s so smart and so good at breaking up plays then quickly turning the play up the ice.

Makar is getting significantly softer minutes than Hughes. 60% of Makar’s starts are in the offensive zone while Hughes is getting a 50/50 split in his offensive and defensive zone deployment. That means Makar gets 20% more shifts in the offensive zone than Hughes which is huge.

Makar’s PDO is over 103 which means his production is more likely to regress than progress. While Hughes’ PDO is at 100.

Hughes is clearly better so far but I wouldn’t be surprised if Makar closes the gap. However it cannot be understated that when you compare their progression year by year, Quinn Hughes being a year younger has the much more explosive career trajectory. Hughes was already dominating the NCAA in his draft year when it took Makar until his draft+2 season to dominate the NCAA.

Im seeing Hughes with a 5v5 o zone start ratio of 60-70%. I know hockey reference is showing 50-50, but three other sites (natural stat trick, NHL.com, and Corsica), all have him in the 60-70% range. All 3 also have Makar getting less o zone stars. Corsica has a slightly tougher CF% QoC for Makar. Can’t find that stat anywhere else. I’m not buying Makar is getting softer minutes at all, much less significantly softer.

Makar is just under ppg right now as a rookie defenseman. Of course is rates are going to fall. And again, I’m seeing a 1.05 PDO for Hughes. The one place all sites agree is that Hughes has a higher on ice shooting percentage. From a pure production perspective, Hughes has more room to fall.

Makar played for UMass and Hughes played for Michigan. UMass won 4 games the year before Makar got there. When he left two years later, he’d won the Hobey Baker and they lost the championship game. Hughes has been really good, but it’s damn near impossible to have a much more explosive trajectory than that.

 

[DL44]

This new NHL demographic of NHL player type has been the best evolutionary step in the game in a long time...

Heiskanen, Makar, Hughes... these ultra skilled, skating, high IQ dmen coming into the league... so much fun to watch. Huge fan of all these guys, and incredibly lucky to have one on my favorite team.


Thank you Erik Karlsson!

 

[Bankerguy]

Im seeing Hughes with a 5v5 o zone start ratio of 60-70%. I know hockey reference is showing 50-50, but three other sites (natural stat trick, NHL.com, and Corsica), all have him in the 60-70% range. All 3 also have Makar getting less o zone stars. Corsica has a slightly tougher CF% QoC for Makar. Can’t find that stat anywhere else. I’m not buying Makar is getting softer minutes at all, much less significantly softer.

Makar is just under ppg right now as a rookie defenseman. Of course is rates are going to fall. And again, I’m seeing a 1.05 PDO for Hughes. The one place all sites agree is that Hughes has a higher on ice shooting percentage. From a pure production perspective, Hughes has more room to fall.

Makar played for UMass and Hughes played for Michigan. UMass won 4 games the year before Makar got there. When he left two years later, he’d won the Hobey Baker and they lost the championship game. Hughes has been really good, but it’s damn near impossible to have a much more explosive trajectory than that.

soooo that means Hughes is better? ^.^

 

[Mac Attack]

It’s Hughes by a mile. I could be a PPG player too if I got that much power play time with MacKinnon and Rantanen. Virtually all of Makar’s points are secondary. Meanwhile Makar is given soft 3rd pairing minutes at 5 on 5 and still a liability in his own zone.

Hughes actually creates his own offense on the power play and at 5 on 5, not to mention at a very impressive rate. And Hughes is miles better defensively.

And most people thought Makar was guaranteed to be better defensively than Hughes solely because Makar is a bit heavier and an inch taller

The Avs board is actually discussing whether or not they should send Makar down to the minors right now - he’s been that bad.

He hasn't been great but the Av's board that is discussing Makar to the minors is a bunch of morons. Don't tell me you have a few of those dudes on your board who over react to everything. Hughes has had a better start to the year. Maybe he's a better prospect. They aren't that far apart and just like Makar's playoffs last year didn't put him head shoulders above Hughes, the same thing goes for the first nine games of the season the other way around. Also you couldn't be a PPG player and people are way too quick to discount what it takes to put up points playing next to talent. Yes it's easier but you still have to be good.

 

[Bankerguy]

Well if Hughes was struggling a bit after 10 or so games and Makar was playing better than him, I’d argue it was too small a sample size. So I’m going to stick with that.
One thing I am surprised at with Hughes has been his defensive play though. Which leads me to believe that the really good skating defensemen can overcome their small size by anticipation and quickness. I mean we’ve watched big guys like Gubrandson struggle defensively. It seems like size is an advantage in clearing the front of the net but speed and smarts can help compensate. Of course having a big, smart great skater like say Dahlin is the best of both worlds but those guys are extremely rare.
Hughes defensive play has been by far the biggest surprise to date for me.

^ i agree with this and it really shows the value of having big mobile smart Dmen ...guys like Pietrangelo. These guys can be the best of both worlds

 

[LGB]

Both Makar and Hughes are 9 games into to this season, I think we need to restart the conversation. I am just hoping all the generalizations about Hughes having a really weak shot and horrible defensively/liability in his own end will finally stop.

Hughes 1 G 5 A 6 P. 58% Corsi

Makar 0 G 8 A 8 P. 45% Corsi

Makar having a better team and 1st pp unit from game 1 and being a year old than Hughes. Hughes is definitely at least on par with Makar this year.

I am too lazy to dig up entry zone and exit Stats, assist shot per 60. Those type of stats. If someone can post it, that will be great.

The Avalanche have had a 5v5 xGF% of 52.61 with Makar on the ice per NatrualStatTrick and 53.9% per Moneypuck.

Quinn has been awesome with an xGF% of 56.63 per NaturalStatTrick and 56% per Moneypuck.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Hughes has been a better statistically (apart from points) on a significantly worse team.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Time to re-visit this but its still so early in the year.

Quinn Hughes has definitely surprised me with his shooting ability.