Makar vs Hughes vs Dahlin vs Heiskanen

[bobholly39]

I’m curious where this debate is at after another season. Heiskanen was not his normal, otherworldly self. But Makar, as I understand it, has had a stellar season. Cant say much about the other two. Thoughts?

Makar had the best season - but honestly, all 4 are such amazing talents that I don't know that this year should change anyone's minds.

I voted Dahlin to start season - and say the same. One bad season doesn't make me give up on him - and I thought Makar was great already, so it's not like I didn't expect him to do really well.

Any of the 4 are talented enough to end up #1 in future - it'll just come down to how things play out.

 

[Lemonlimey]

Didn't realize was a necro-thread, result shocked me at first. No disrespect to the other 3. Kid just is even better than anyone imagined.

 

[PowerMac]

Makar was just so underrated til recently. I think I wanted a top 2 pick and Patrick pre-draft. Wasn't sure about picking a defensemen with a top 5 pick since I don't think that's good value generally but then I watched his draft scout videos and his dynamic ability popped off the screen. I don't think I've ever seen such an explosiveness defensemen before with such power in his game and was like yeah I guess if you're going to pick a defensemen top 5 then get somebody as dynamic as this.

 

[Boxscore]

Dahlin either needs to get out of Buffalo, or the Sabres need a complete culture change, for him to reach his potential. The kid has all the talent in the world but is being ruined in Buffalo with no true supporting cast or leadership--other than the captain who will likely be traded in the offseason.

Makar is in the best situation, followed by Heiskanen. Hughes kind of reminds me of young Karlsson in Ottawa--an offensive dynamo who is given the green light to flourish with a few, high-end weapons at forward. Dahlin is in a crummy situation from top-to-bottom and something needs to give or we'll be robbed of the best this kid has to offer.

 

[PowerMac]

Makar really wasn't in the best situation just because his team is talented. He had to babysit Grave as his partner during his regular season and did it so well everybody thought Graves was good and worth 3mil AAV.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Makar is already a PPG dman with elite transition defense, good zone defense and a solid physical game. I can't see Dahlin/Hughes/Heiskanen to really be better than that.

 

[GOALOFSSON]

He was never in the same tier as the other three except for the conversation about upside and potential.

Good joke. The only reason for this until just last season was because the others were in a tier below. Then Krueger happened.

Makar really wasn't in the best situation just because his team is talented. He had to babysit Grave as his partner during his regular season and did it so well everybody thought Graves was good and worth 3mil AAV.

Poor Makar

Makar is already a PPG dman with elite transition defense, good zone defense and a solid physical game. I can't see Dahlin/Hughes/Heiskanen to really be better than that.

I can and expect it.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Good joke. The only reason for this until just last season was because the others were in a tier below. Then Krueger happened.



Poor Makar



I can and expect it.

So he will be over PPG and play elite defense?

 

[avsfan9]

For those saying Makar plays on a good team and it inflated his stats, should we discredit Paul Coffeys career achievements because he played on a stacked oilers team or do we just think of him as one of the greatest defensmen to ever play the game?

 

[GOALOFSSON]

So he will be over PPG and play elite defense?

At least one of those things, could be both. Also weren't the only things listed.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

At least one of those things, could be both. Also weren't the only things listed.

I kinda just put all the other things together as elite defense. But Makar is already a PPG dman, who could actually get 90-100 points in a season. So Dahlin has to be BETTER than that.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

For those saying Makar plays on a good team and it inflated his stats, should we discredit Paul Coffeys career achievements because he played on a stacked oilers team or do we just think of him as one of the greatest defensmen to ever play the game?

Shouldn’t everyone be saying he plays on a good team and it inflates his stats? That’d be true, so people should be speaking the truth.

I don’t think it takes away from him either, but it also means other players shouldn’t have to put up the same stats to be comparable or better. Accounting for the teams players play for should be happening in these comparisons.

 

[seancolorado]

Heiskanen is way better AINEC.

Makar and Hughes get overhyped because of their fanbases.
Dahlin gets overhyped because of his draft hype.

Miro is so underhyped, it's not even funny. The other 3 are incompetent defensively. Watching Hughes defend is hilarious.

I know you don't watch the Avs because you think Makar is incompetent defensively

 

[majormajor]

Shouldn’t everyone be saying he plays on a good team and it inflates his stats? That’d be true, so people should be speaking the truth.

I don’t think it takes away from him either, but it also means other players shouldn’t have to put up the same stats to be comparable or better. Accounting for the teams players play for should be happening in these comparisons.

That'd be false.

If Makar scored at a higher rate with Mackinnon then you might have a point. He doesn't, he scores at a higher rate without him. He has his best scoring rates on the ice with players that wouldn't be top liners on any team.

This is simply the case of two superstars on one team, and the younger one not getting enough credit because of it.

You've been told the facts often enough and it just doesn't seem to sink in with you.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

That'd be false.

If Makar scored at a higher rate with Mackinnon then you might have a point. He doesn't, he scores at a higher rate without him. He has his best scoring rates on the ice with players that wouldn't be top liners on any team.

This is simply the case of two superstars on one team, and the younger one not getting enough credit because of it.

You've been told the facts often enough and it just doesn't seem to sink in with you.

What you said there is not the topic I addressed.

 

[majormajor]

What you said there is not the topic I addressed.

It is the same topic. You're suggesting that Makar's stats are inflated by his team, and with respect to goals and assists the evidence does not support your argument.

He's already the highest rate scoring D-man in the league, and then you take the Avs topline and put it on the bench, and Makar scores even faster.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It is the same topic. You're suggesting that Makar's stats are inflated by his team, and with respect to goals and assists the evidence does not support your argument.

He's already the highest rate scoring D-man in the league, and then you take the Avs topline and put it on the bench, and Makar scores even faster.

No, you tried to cite MacKinnon as some example about Makar. The whole team has inflated numbers. It’s the highest scoring team in the league, so I don’t know how one could deny that compared to league average or the players in the thread title that play for the 19th, 26th, and 28th best scoring teams that Makar has inflated numbers.

 

[majormajor]

No, you tried to cite MacKinnon as some example about Makar. The whole team has inflated numbers. It’s the highest scoring team in the league, so I don’t know how one could deny that compared to league average or the players in the thread title that play for the 19th, 26th, and 28th best scoring teams that Makar has inflated numbers.

They have high numbers. You have more to prove to show that they are inflated.

I'm only aware of one way to make that distinction and that is by checking the stats with each teammate.

When Graves and Makar are on the ice with Compher, Nichushkin, Kadri or Burakovsky, Makar is scoring at a ridiculous clip. It's higher with any of those players than it is with Mackinnon, Landeskog, and / or Rantanen.

The more Makar has the puck the more he scores. It's that simple. And it's a big part of the reason why the Avs have the top offense.

 

[keglu]

No, you tried to cite MacKinnon as some example about Makar. The whole team has inflated numbers. It’s the highest scoring team in the league, so I don’t know how one could deny that compared to league average or the players in the thread title that play for the 19th, 26th, and 28th best scoring teams that Makar has inflated numbers.

Inflated by how much? Makar beats Heiskanen by 100% and Dahlin by 140% in terms of PPG production this season.
Also high does not mean inflated. Avs were pretty average in terms of shooting percentage so production this year was result of scoring chances created and not puck luck.

 

[avsfan9]

Inflated by how much? Makar beats Heiskanen by 100% and Dahlin by 140% in terms of PPG production this season.
Also high does not mean inflated. Avs were pretty average in terms of shooting percentage so production this year was result of scoring chances created and not puck luck.

I don’t think he’s arguing for the guys in this thread. Just waiting for Adam fox’s name to eventually appear.

 

[KevSkillz4]

Cale Makar it's a easy choice

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I don’t think he’s arguing for the guys in this thread. Just waiting for Adam fox’s name to eventually appear.

How about you speak for yourself and I’ll speak for myself?

 

[wetcoast]

Makar had the best season - but honestly, all 4 are such amazing talents that I don't know that this year should change anyone's minds.

I voted Dahlin to start season - and say the same. One bad season doesn't make me give up on him - and I thought Makar was great already, so it's not like I didn't expect him to do really well.

Any of the 4 are talented enough to end up #1 in future - it'll just come down to how things play out.

I agree that it could go to any of the 4, injuries and playoff success will all play an important part but still took Dahlin.

Miro and Makar have had the best careers so far, Hughes was over worked and the Canucks were lost and well Buffalo was a complete mess so it's hard to get a full read.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Cale Makar is just a beauty to watch play...there isn't a defenseman in the League I'd take over him right now...