Major League Baseball considering expansion, radical realignment

Howie Hodge

Zombie Woof
Sep 16, 2017
4,427
4,038
Buffalo, NY
We have to accept Baseball is part of a new landscape, one very different than traditionally viewed.

The most sacred of baseball is it's records for home runs, and pitching wins.

Both terribly tainted by the use of PED's.

However, MLB has always had tainted records.

The omission of incredible talents like Josh Gibson and Satchell Paige saw to that, because of the color of their skin.

Baseball's history and records are not as sacred as some would believe....
 

patnyrnyg

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
10,875
887
Not really. But we're rapidly approaching a point where NONE of these things "mean anything." Baseball's always been about a deep, timeless history. It's one of their massive selling points.

"The memories will be so thick, they'll have to brush them away from their faces. The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time." And all that stuff.

So now we're at a point where the Astros go 50 years in the National League... and then swap to the AL just to fit the boxes of a grid?
I saw Field of Dreams, too. What is the point?

Yes, they wanted divisions to have an equal number of teams and based on the previous alignment, the Astros made the most sense. Geographically, they were the furthest west of all the old NL Central teams and by far the furthest distance from everyone else in the division. And, what does that have to do with some kind of history between Astros and Mets? Why not have a division with the Mets-Astros-Padres? There is HISTORY there! We have already covered the Mets-Astros history. The Astros beat the Padres in the 2005 NLDS in 3 games, so they have a history and I am sure the Padres would love to get revenge on the Astros every year, they will be very motivated in those games. The Mets and Padres have never played in the post-season, but they did once play a wild game in 86 where the Mets had a big rally, went ahead in the 9th or 10th and then in the bottom of the inning ended it on a wild double play. Something like 7-2-5. Plus, there was the Kevin Mitchell for Kevin McReynolds trade, the teams can really hype that up. Finally, the Padres beat the Cubs in the NLCS in 84. The Mets finished 2nd to the Cubs in the NL East, BUT had the Mets won the division, they would have played in the NLCS. I am sure you can come up with a way to market that into the rivalry. Let's not forget, the Padres entered the league in 1969, which is the same year the Mets won their first World Series. That has to be significant, no?
 

patnyrnyg

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
10,875
887
We have to accept Baseball is part of a new landscape, one very different than traditionally viewed.

The most sacred of baseball is it's records for home runs, and pitching wins.

Both terribly tainted by the use of PED's.

However, MLB has always had tainted records.

The omission of incredible talents like Josh Gibson and Satchell Paige saw to that, because of the color of their skin.

Baseball's history and records are not as sacred as some would believe....
Pitching wins? Nobody has come close to Cy Young's 511. Nobody ever will. That is the safest record in all of sports.
 

KevFu

Registered User
May 22, 2009
9,207
3,440
Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
I saw Field of Dreams, too. What is the point?

The point is, that baseball's always used tradition and "the national pastime" as a big selling point in how they market it. Baseball ties generations together, blah, blah, blah. If baseball makes itself more like hockey and basketball, by wiping out 120 years of NL/AL tradition, it's a league like basketball or hockey... with a sport that's longer, slower, and a lot more boring.

Over time, the old folks who think like me will die off, and new generations of baseball fans won't care -- I'm a crusty old traditionalist in my late 30s). But how does this suddenly court new, younger fans? What about a modern, radically realigned, geographic division format CREATES new fans? Doesn't it make series like Mets-Yankees, Cubs-White Sox... ordinary? (The Astros/Rangers rivalry has seen an attendance decline since HOU/TEX became division rivals. And that was back when Houston was losing 107 games. Now they're BOTH PRETTY GOOD, and attendance is down 11,000 per game).

It's all sacrifice of tradition which will alienate fans. And for no real gain. And any gain they DO get, is not impossible to achieve without this radical change.


Yes, they wanted divisions to have an equal number of teams and based on the previous alignment, the Astros made the most sense.

Right -- and I'm not saying Mets-Astros is like Flyers-Penguins or Bruins-Habs or anything. I was just pointing out that the one funky division in my crazy realignment idea has quirky story lines you can sell. That's it.


The Astros moving made sense for two reasons: In order to make creating the schedule easier by balancing the schedule matrix, moving Houston gave Texas a big benefit of local games in their time zone. Houston is a massive market and therefore could afford the loss of central/eastern time zone starts they used to have more than Kansas City could. And of course, the Astros were being sold, so they could make "agree to move" as part of the approval process for the franchise sale.

But my objection to the Astros switching leagues is less about the Astros, or any team in particular, and more about the philosophy we've discussed on the BOH board for the NHL's realignment.

No one watching sports because they're a fan of geographically clean alignment grids; Not even freaks who post a million words a year about the topic of realignment in online forums.

You can get teams what they want by changing the schedule without having to abolish the previous NL/AL distinctions.
 

patnyrnyg

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
10,875
887
That is one record neither I or anyone else have ever suggested will be broken.

Think on a broader scale, like top ten, etc....
There are 2 pitchers from the steroid era in the top-10 in career wins. Maddux is 8th, who definitely did not take steroids and Clemens is 9th. Speculation is we will never see another 300-game winner, which means the top-24 is set and locked. The highest active pitcher is Bartolo Colon with 240, he is not winning another 60 games. Sabathia is at 237, he is not winning another 63. Other than that, there is not even an active pitcher with 200.
 
Last edited:

Howie Hodge

Zombie Woof
Sep 16, 2017
4,427
4,038
Buffalo, NY
There are 2 pitchers from the steroid era in the top-10 in career wins. Maddux is 8th, who definitely did not take steroids and Clemens is 9th. Speculation is we will never see another 30-game winner, which means the top-24 is set and locked. The highest active pitcher is Bartolo Colon with 240, he is not winning another 60 games. Sabathia is at 237, he is not winning another 63. Other than that, there is not even an active pitcher with 200.
We don't know Maddox did not. Certainly doesn't look like someone who did, neither did he pitch like someone who did.

Clemens on the other hand shows all the signs of a steroid user.....

These guys simply don't pitch enough late innings to win 30 games; tough enough getting enough innings to win 20.....
 

patnyrnyg

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
10,875
887
The point is, that baseball's always used tradition and "the national pastime" as a big selling point in how they market it. Baseball ties generations together, blah, blah, blah. If baseball makes itself more like hockey and basketball, by wiping out 120 years of NL/AL tradition, it's a league like basketball or hockey... with a sport that's longer, slower, and a lot more boring.

Over time, the old folks who think like me will die off, and new generations of baseball fans won't care -- I'm a crusty old traditionalist in my late 30s). But how does this suddenly court new, younger fans? What about a modern, radically realigned, geographic division format CREATES new fans? Doesn't it make series like Mets-Yankees, Cubs-White Sox... ordinary? (The Astros/Rangers rivalry has seen an attendance decline since HOU/TEX became division rivals. And that was back when Houston was losing 107 games. Now they're BOTH PRETTY GOOD, and attendance is down 11,000 per game).

It's all sacrifice of tradition which will alienate fans. And for no real gain. And any gain they DO get, is not impossible to achieve without this radical change.
Obviously, if they are playing 9 times at home per year it is different than 3 times. However, In those 18 games, how is the attendance as compared to the rest of their schedule? How is their attendance in relation to other division games? Non-division games?

Secondly, what is the pricing for those games? Do they gauge the way the Mets do for Opening Day and the Yankee games? This year was the first time I went to opening day since 2010, when I had a mini-plan that included opening day. First time I went to a game against the Yankees at Citi since 2011. Last time I had a plan was 2010, since I refused to buy those games each year because of how they priced them as compared to other games. This year, bought with the 7-line from one of their plan holders, so it was ridiculous, but not AS ridiculous. Not buying opening day for next season, and likely not a Yankees game.

Finally, I find it hard to believe Astros-Rangers will be anywhere near the intensity of Mets-Yanks, Cubs-White Sox.
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
8,610
3,610
The point is, that baseball's always used tradition and "the national pastime" as a big selling point in how they market it. Baseball ties generations together, blah, blah, blah. If baseball makes itself more like hockey and basketball, by wiping out 120 years of NL/AL tradition, it's a league like basketball or hockey... with a sport that's longer, slower, and a lot more boring.

Over time, the old folks who think like me will die off, and new generations of baseball fans won't care -- I'm a crusty old traditionalist in my late 30s). But how does this suddenly court new, younger fans? What about a modern, radically realigned, geographic division format CREATES new fans? Doesn't it make series like Mets-Yankees, Cubs-White Sox... ordinary? (The Astros/Rangers rivalry has seen an attendance decline since HOU/TEX became division rivals. And that was back when Houston was losing 107 games. Now they're BOTH PRETTY GOOD, and attendance is down 11,000 per game).

It's all sacrifice of tradition which will alienate fans. And for no real gain. And any gain they DO get, is not impossible to achieve without this radical change.




Right -- and I'm not saying Mets-Astros is like Flyers-Penguins or Bruins-Habs or anything. I was just pointing out that the one funky division in my crazy realignment idea has quirky story lines you can sell. That's it.


The Astros moving made sense for two reasons: In order to make creating the schedule easier by balancing the schedule matrix, moving Houston gave Texas a big benefit of local games in their time zone. Houston is a massive market and therefore could afford the loss of central/eastern time zone starts they used to have more than Kansas City could. And of course, the Astros were being sold, so they could make "agree to move" as part of the approval process for the franchise sale.

But my objection to the Astros switching leagues is less about the Astros, or any team in particular, and more about the philosophy we've discussed on the BOH board for the NHL's realignment.

No one watching sports because they're a fan of geographically clean alignment grids; Not even freaks who post a million words a year about the topic of realignment in online forums.

You can get teams what they want by changing the schedule without having to abolish the previous NL/AL distinctions.

At the end of the day, 99% of the population would rather not be on an airplane

If the entire argument for East/West realignment just came down to less travel time for players, then that should be good enough for the fans
 

patnyrnyg

Registered User
Sep 16, 2004
10,875
887
We don't know Maddox did not. Certainly doesn't look like someone who did, neither did he pitch like someone who did.

Clemens on the other hand shows all the signs of a steroid user.....

These guys simply don't pitch enough late innings to win 30 games; tough enough getting enough innings to win 20.....
meant 300
 

IU Hawks fan

They call me IU
Dec 30, 2008
28,617
2,926
NW Burbs
The White Sox would have trouble selling out 8-9 Cubs games if they continue to price them how they do for the 2-3 game series (IE: making the cheapest tickets $70+ to sit in the upper corners, usually $7 tickets). But they would easily sell them out at prices still above the norm. I agree with Pat, you can't compare the city/inner-market rivalries to state ones, because you aren't drawing from 2 fanbases nearly as much. Highly doubt many Rangers fans are traveling to Houston and vice versa, especially on weeknights, whereas going crosstown isn't a big deal (and for many Cubs fans, going to the south side is a heck of a lot easier).

That being said, holy f*** would that be overload.
 

KevFu

Registered User
May 22, 2009
9,207
3,440
Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
At the end of the day, 99% of the population would rather not be on an airplane. If the entire argument for East/West realignment just came down to less travel time for players, then that should be good enough for the fans

No one disputes that people hate travel. But there's two principles at play here:

#1 - That's the ARGUMENT, but their plan is NOT A SOLUTION to reduce travel.

I already showed earlier in the thread: AL East/Central teams will visit the PTZ/MTZ teams for 27 series over 6 years (4.5 per year) in their plan. It was 24 every six years before (4 per year). I used a six-year cycle because interleague took six years to do Home/Away with everyone.

The divisions are all close teams, so it LOOKS like there's less travel. But the schedule changes basically negate that. For example: Washington will be in a geographically tight division with ATL, BAL, CIN, MIA, PHI, PIT, TB. But NYM won't be in their division, the Mets will be with NYY.

OLD: WAS played 15 road series at those nine teams listed.
NEW: WAS will play 15 road series at those nine teams listed.

The differences are:
One extra trip to CIN instead of ATL, PIT instead of PHI, TB instead of MIA, TB instead of NYM, NYM OR NYY instead of definitely NYM. (All of these are equal distance or NOW LONGER).
And they get one extra trip to BAL instead of NYM.


The old interleague format pitted East vs East, West vs West, Central vs Central. You played your division + that rival division a total of about 90 times. Everyone else outside your region, you played HALF of them Home AND Away, based on if they were NL or AL.

This proposed format gives you 84 division games against seven of those 10 teams that were in your division or rival division. Plus 6 against teams that USED TO BE in your division or rival division (about 90), and you'll play ALL of the remaining teams, home OR away alternating by year.

How do you think they'll divide up who's home and who's away? You'll play HALF of each division home, and half on the road. And then flip next year:
STL will change from at LAD, SF, NYM, WAS every single year, to at LAD, OAK, NYM, BAL one year and at LAA, SF, NYY, WAS the next.

Even if they're strategic and give STL at NYY/NYM, home vs MIA/TB; at LAD/LAA, home OAK/SF and reverse it the next year, you don't have enough pairs like that to significantly reduce the travel. And that's because:


They are REDUCING the schedule by six games, but they are keeping the SAME NUMBER of series as before (52) because they're eliminating four-game series. Assuming they're going to have homesteads and road trips of 6 or 9 games just like before, there's no reduction in the amount of flights a team has to take per year.

They are throwing away 115+ years of tradition in order to shave TINY, TINY slivers off everyone's travel itineraries. Which brings me to:


#2 - I outright reject your premise of "reducing travel is enough of a reason." That applies to binary situations: "I can't see in the dark, the light switch should be turned from Off to On." Their plan isn't the only possibility that exists. You CAN accomplish the stated goals with less radical changes.
 

KevFu

Registered User
May 22, 2009
9,207
3,440
Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
dont like this at all. keep it the way it is and just have a few extra divisions have a extra team. we had 6 teams in the NL Central for so many years meanwhile the AL west only had 4 and nobody made a big fuss of it.

The only people who did make a fuss were the schedule makers. Because it was hard to plot teams on a schedule matrix that had SEVEN layers to the matrix.

The goals of the this radical realignment as stated were:
- easier schedule matrix
- reduce travel
- less East-West flights

I said it before: 4-4-4-4 in each league. West, Central, East, East in each league. (The east can be North/South or Mideast/Northeast, and it doesn't have to be the same labels in each league)

16 vs your division (4 four game series each; 48 games)
8 vs everyone else in your league (2 four-game series each, 96 games)
8 vs your rival division: W vs W, C vs C, E1 vs E1, E2 vs E2 (2 four-game series each, 24)

That's an easier matrix. It's three layers instead of seven. It's also every series the same length, like their plan.

That's 109 total series for all of MLB at PTZ/MTZ teams. That is one less than their plan which allegedly reduces travel.

That's 44 total series to travel to instead of 52 series to travel to. That reduces the number of flights you need in a season.

That's every team in each division having the exact same schedule, which makes things way more fair than now.

And that preserves the NL/AL alignment with minimal switches. You could make a variety of different 4-4-4-4 alignments that are very geographically friendly by only switching teams that have been created/switched since 1993 (COL, ARZ, HOU, MIL, TB, MIA).
 

robert terwilliger

the bart, the
Nov 14, 2005
24,059
511
sw florida
one thing mlb actually needs to solve is the regionalization of the sport and how it is watched. they actually need people to watch the game after their team is eliminated.

your alleged solutions do nothing but remove flights for teams while pumping up geographical isolation. that doesn't solve anything but decreasing the amount of cross-country flights but hey, you've completely nuked the 100+ year league history of major league baseball. so it's not a complete waste!
 

Perennial

Registered User
Jun 27, 2020
3,492
1,523
one thing mlb actually needs to solve is the regionalization of the sport and how it is watched. they actually need people to watch the game after their team is eliminated.

your alleged solutions do nothing but remove flights for teams while pumping up geographical isolation. that doesn't solve anything but decreasing the amount of cross-country flights but hey, you've completely nuked the 100+ year league history of major league baseball. so it's not a complete waste!

 

Perennial

Registered User
Jun 27, 2020
3,492
1,523
With the DH now being used in both leagues, it would seem like the ideal time to shuffle some teams around to create more geographically-friendly leagues...
 

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