Sportsnet: MacArthur sounds off on former coach Carlyle

[KuleminFan41]

I agree with Mac on this one. Going at this rate, people are going to be tired of defending Carlyle sooner than later.

Paul MacLean made the playoffs without Anderson, Karlsson, Spezza while being a player's coach. Alfie signed in Detroit, but you don't see him mouthing off MacLean (who clearly wasn't an issue anyways).

People in here didn't see playoffs for a decade and giving Carlyle far more credit than players like Reimer, McClement for playing out of their skin.

So you completely ignore that the Leafs were virtually last in all special teams stats with Wilson while Carlyle is top of the league. Even with Mcclement, Wilson would have found a way to ruin it. You can never underestimate the importance that good coaching has . I think its silly to completely ignore what Carlyle did and just assume McClement and Reimer were far more important to the team than the COACH.

you know you made a mistake... and when you have people hammering it non-stop... it's annoying and makes u perform WORSE


that is his argument, learn to read

BS it makes you perform worse. It should make you want to prove your coach wrong. Thats why, coaches demand PERFECTION. As is in any job, you are demanded the best from you. You can't have your hand held all the time. Thats what I have a problem with Mac complaining. "Oh don't tell me I made a mistake",well if you don't want to be told then don't make a mistake or at least minimize the amount of times you do. They're making millions of dollars and don't want someone to call them out on something they did? Its called being accountable for what you do. Grow up and go on with it, thats how it should be.

 

[Daisy Jane]

the thing is - who do you hire?

this is not a market for a rookie coach (actually the best time to get a rookie coach was when Burke was first hired, the city was prepared for rebuilding and would have accepted anything) 4 years later, not so much.

(shrug) I don't know who was available when Carlyle was hired - and there's no one out there NOW that I'd choose over him (unless there's an obvious name that I'm missing).

 

[Razz]

It sort of illuminates a distrubing trend by Carlyle, albeit it one that can and does happen with every coach.

When Lupul was in Anaheim, Carlyle literally refused to try him on the LW. Now that can be explained as having depth at that position, but still it showed that Carlyle got set in his ways and wouldn't even consider trying a player in another position after the player asked if it would be possible.

But whatever, Carlyle admitted he was wrong (speculate on whether or not he meant it, since Lupul had already broken out and Carlyle had little choice but I digress). No problem right?

But then he starts to do the same thing with Grabo.

It's a little concerning because it's looking like he has similar type stubborness with Gardiner and Kadri. That concerns me a lot.

Absolutely agree with this. It's very much a possibility Carlyle doesn't like either one of these players and we will lose them because of it. Being a fit on a team isn't always related to statistics.

Some players will struggle under Carlyle and excel under other coaches while the reverse can be true as well. Ultimately he'll be fired eventually and replaced by a guy whom isn't such a hardass and then he'll be fired by someone whom is different as well...

 

[Pi]

the thing is - who do you hire?

this is not a market for a rookie coach (actually the best time to get a rookie coach was when Burke was first hired, the city was prepared for rebuilding and would have accepted anything) 4 years later, not so much.

(shrug) I don't know who was available when Carlyle was hired - and there's no one out there NOW that I'd choose over him (unless there's an obvious name that I'm missing).

Carlyle is perfect for the type of game the Leafs want to play. Every coach that gets hired will eventually get fired but there is not a coach I would rather have right now than Carlyle.

 

[AuraSphere]

And yet Kessel chose to re-sign for 8 years and Lupul seems to be doing just fine with him now. He was upset that he didn't want to hear criticism. Oh boo hoo. You make millions and it is the coaches job to, get this, COACH. If the coach has to tell you every shift that you are doing something wrong, then maybe you should stop doing it.. Clearly, MacArthur wasn't doing it or else he wouldn't have to keep harping on it. The guy sounds like my teenager. Glad he's gone as well as Grabovski. What a couple of crybabies...

You do realize kessel is a franchise player that will get praise from any coach whereas the bottom six seems to never shine. I don't even know how to make an opinion on these threads anymore, you people are so ignorantly attached to the fan base and can never accept negative points about our team.

Edit: I'm pretty sure Kadri's starting to hate Carlyle as well, but that's just an inference

 

[bunjay]

Yeah clearly Carlyle is a major hardass and is big on personal accoutability.

I would argue that ALL coaches eventually wear out their welcome. I guarantee you when **** hit the fan in Toronto under Wilson, the players were looking around wondering why there was no structure or penalty for lax play and crappy players kept getting in the lineup despite the lack of performance. If I were a hard working player, that'd drive me mad.

These guys are pros and want to win and not everyone works under all management styles. Everyone has a different personality and they have to work together, the key is to get the right coach for the right group.

The Leafs needed a kick in the ass, and they turned it around when it happened. So far anyway.

All coaches wear out their welcome with management, not so much with the players themselves. Know what I mean? There is a fine balance, we're led to believe that Ron Wilson was too far to one side, Carlyle may end up being too far to the other. You don't get the most out of every player in exactly the same way.

Look at a guy like Mike Keenan, the quintessential hardass. He had success early in his career, then he floundered around with various teams and could no longer find an NHL job. Had he not been with the Rangers the year they won would anybody respect his coaching record? The same storyline could easily come about for Carlyle.

 

[Pi]

You do realize kessel is a franchise player that will get praise from any coach whereas the bottom six seems to never shine. I don't even know how to make an opinion on these threads anymore, you people are so ignorantly attached to the fan base and can never accept negative points about our team.

Is that why Kessel and Claude Julien bonded so well?

Julien and Kessel clashed often during his three seasons with the Bruins and on a myriad of subjects: Kessel would routinely get challenged for not working hard enough in the weight room and for his stubborn choice in hockey sticks. Kessel, on the other hand, never really forgave Julien for benching him during the first round playoff series against the Montreal Canadiens during his second season in the league.

The friction between Kessel and Julien was widely believed a big factor in Kessel’s forced exit to the Maple Leafs, but it appears that’s been smoothed over with an All-Star chat that was a long time coming.

“The years go by and it’s always nice to see those guys again. I had a really good conversation with Phil yesterday. He’s obviously excited and loves where he is,†said Julien. “That’s what it’s all about. We obviously lost a good player, but it was a trade that had to be made. In return we got a couple of good players, so it worked out for both sides.â€

Kessel is never going to truly open his veins to the media about anything never mind a heart-to-heart with his former coach, but even No. 81 admitted he looks back on his experience in Boston with a much different lens these days. He’s a two-time All-Star and one of the most dangerous scorers in the league, and he knows the B’s coaching staff was trying to make him a better player.

Much like a grown-up child that eventually realizes why their parents were hard on them long after the fact, Kessel understands what happened in Boston was part of his development. How much does Kessel think he’s matured since he left Boston?

“Quite a bit. I mean…that was three years ago now, right? I was still pretty young. I was just getting used to the league back in the day. I think you take every lesson that you learn in the league and get better as a player and a person,†said Kessel. “When we were there he tried to make me a better hockey player.

“I have a lot of respect for what he’s done. He’s a good coach and a good guy. I understand some of the things [Julien] did now. When I was there I was young. I wanted to play and help.â€

Is Kessel going to enjoy playing with Julien behind the bench again?

“It’ll be fine…yeah,†said Kessel. “I played with him for a couple of years and he taught me a lot about the game. He’s obviously a good coach. It’s nice for him to get recognized here because he’s done great in Boston. It’s a good thing for him.â€

It sounds like at 24 years old with a potential 40-goal season and playoff berth in his future, Kessel is finally starting to “get it†as an NHL player.

This is called: Taking the high road.

Just because you don't like a coach, or a player doesn't mean you take shots at them after you are no longer with that organization.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

So we want a coach to be buttery and sweet to players?

Because to me, it looks like we are playing way better under Randy, but that's just me

 

[7even]

Starting to notice a trend.

 

[Kingstonian84*]

There are a lot of good things about Carlyle such as his ability to match lines, he has a knack for putting his players in the right position to succeed, he's shown he's very vocal with his players about his expecations and how good/bad they are doing.

That being said he has his bad traits too, he's stubborn at times and will stick with certain players despite them playing poorly (Kostka as an example), I also don't like how he throws his players under the bus to the media and he tends to overwork his players in practice too

Like anyone he's not perfect, he has his good traits and bad traits. At the end of day there's no arguing he's a successful NHL coach, that being said though every coach has his shelf life before it expires, it'd be foolish to thing Caryle will be here beyond 5 years.

 

[Pi]

Starting to notice a trend.

True. Players that aren't good enough to stick on the team are taking shots at the coach.

I don't even get why MacArthur is so mad. He got 15 minutes of ice time with Kadri, got PP time and still only managed to put up points at a ~40 point pace.

Did he really think he was actually a 60 point player?

 

[bunjay]

So you completely ignore that the Leafs were virtually last in all special teams stats with Wilson while Carlyle is top of the league. Even with Mcclement, Wilson would have found a way to ruin it. You can never underestimate the importance that good coaching has . I think its silly to completely ignore what Carlyle did and just assume McClement and Reimer were far more important to the team than the COACH.

It's not unreasonable to argue that Reimer and McClement were more important to the PK than the coach. Reimer was an improvement over previous goaltending by 20%. Thats more important shorthanded than any other time, id bet the difference in save % between reimer and raycroft/toskala/giguere/gustavsson might be even higher if you were to dig up just SH statistics. McClement was the top PKer in the entire league...and I don't mean amongst forwards, he had by far the most SH TOI in the entire league.

 

[maplehawk]

- make playoffs for first time in almost a decade
- take powerhouse team to 7 games
- start next season 2-0




- complain about coach

only in leafs nation.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Carlyle is perfect for the type of game the Leafs want to play. Every coach that gets hired will eventually get fired but there is not a coach I would rather have right now than Carlyle.

Pi, don't get me wrong (we usually see eye to eye on the same things ) me either. but it's the way some people talk - that [insert name] is terrible, we need a change. Okay - make a change, but who do you get?

I keep seeing posts like too much credit is giving to Carlyle when it was Reimer and company that got us to the playoffs. it's literally a team effort. yes you can ride your horse until it drops down dead (which is what the Leafs tend to do regardless of the goalie and coach) but if you think that coaching isn't 50% of it, people you are cracked.

Again - Gary Roberts has said, a main reason why the Leafs never made it to the finals during his time with the leafs, is that Quinn wasn't a big x's and o's kind of guy. CLEARLY this doesn't mean that Quinn didn't know how to win (Olympic/WJC golds etc), but No cups for our Big Irishman.

someone said it - all coaches wear out their welcome eventually, some wear it out the first day with some people. but we're not AT eventually yet.

 

[Gutchecktime]

- make playoffs for first time in almost a decade
- take powerhouse team to 7 games
- start next season 2-0




- complain about coach.

Yeah. I don't get it either.

Just ****ing win. Nothing else matters.

 

[bunjay]

- make playoffs for first time in almost a decade
- take powerhouse team to 7 games
- start next season 2-0




- complain about coach

only in leafs nation.

-make playoffs in a 48 game season
-have one of the most spectacular 3rd period collapses in the history of NHL game sevens
-get bailed out by fantastic goaltending in two games in which the defense was absolutely atrocious



-think everything is amazing

only in leafs nation.


Just a little perspective for you

 

[Pi]

It's not unreasonable to argue that Reimer and McClement were more important to the PK than the coach. Reimer was an improvement over previous goaltending by 20%. Thats more important shorthanded than any other time, id bet the difference in save % between reimer and raycroft/toskala/giguere/gustavsson might be even higher if you were to dig up just SH statistics. McClement was the top PKer in the entire league...and I don't mean amongst forwards, he had by far the most SH TOI in the entire league.

McClement was also on the Avs and the Blues:
Avs:
12th in PK
29th in PK

St. Louis
15th in PK
16th in PK

Toronto:
2nd in PK.

Forgive me for thinking that the coach had just as much of a hand in turing our PK into one of the best in the league.

Reimer is a good goalie but our PK over the last decade or so just allowed far too easy of an entry, players were hesitant to block shots and were easy to cycle against.

Our PK doesn't allow easy entries in the zone, goes after the puck carrier like a bunch of hawks, blocks every possible scoring chance and gets the puck out of the zone more often than not.

That's coaching, simple as that.

 

[Ari91]

When Mac signed with Ottawa I said that the coaching fit would be perfect for him. Mac seems like he needs a bit of coddling from his coach and I think MacLean has a good read on his players as individuals and adjusts his style to each player.

Carlyle's style isn't for everyone and I can see why being a demanding coach can wear out its welcome for some players but I find it immature how personal some players take it. You won't say hello to the guy because he let you know about the mistakes you made?

Mac and Grabo had great relationships with Wilson..not surprising how it would be a big change to operate under a more strict coach. All coaches make mistakes but if you're going to harp on Carlyle because Mac and Grabo didn't like him - at least remember you have guys like Franson and Kadri who have pretty much admitted that they prefer Carlyle as a coach to Wilson. You have a guy like McClement who is only playing in Toronto because he wanted to be coached by Carlyle. You have guys in JVR and Kessel who have shown improvements in their game under Carlyle. I'll take a happy and improving Franson, Kadri, McClement, Kessel and JVR any day over Mac and Grabo. Carlyle can just as easily wear out his welcome with those players in time but we aren't there yet and it isn't a problem.

 

[TOG26]

Bet MacArthur has good things to say about Ron Wilson (even with the no playoffs), due mainly to the fact he was instrumental in getting MacArthur a couple of decent contracts.

 

[Gutchecktime]

-make playoffs in a 48 game season
-have one of the most spectacular 3rd period collapses in the history of NHL game sevens
-get bailed out by fantastic goaltending in two games in which the defense was absolutely atrocious

-think everything is amazing

only in leafs nation.

Just a little perspective for you

You must be a hit at parties.

 

[bunjay]

Pi, don't get me wrong (we usually see eye to eye on the same things ) me either. but it's the way some people talk - that [insert name] is terrible, we need a change. Okay - make a change, but who do you get?

I keep seeing posts like too much credit is giving to Carlyle when it was Reimer and company that got us to the playoffs. it's literally a team effort. yes you can ride your horse until it drops down dead (which is what the Leafs tend to do regardless of the goalie and coach) but if you think that coaching isn't 50% of it, people you are cracked.

Again - Gary Roberts has said, a main reason why the Leafs never made it to the finals during his time with the leafs, is that Quinn wasn't a big x's and o's kind of guy. CLEARLY this doesn't mean that Quinn didn't know how to win (Olympic/WJC golds etc), but No cups for our Big Irishman.

someone said it - all coaches wear out their welcome eventually, some wear it out the first day with some people. but we're not AT eventually yet.

Patt Quinn got a lot out of his teams in the playoffs. Especially when they were down by 1 late in the game. Roberts can theorize all he wants about how many cups they'd have won if Quinn was a better coach. But that sounds to me like some sour grapes from a player who doesn't accept that he got beaten by better teams. You can only go so far with Bryan McCabe as your #1 defenseman.

 

[Pyromaniac3]

Starting to notice a trend.

Me too.

Player sucks in Carlyle's system. Player loses spot/scratched. Player leaves. Player cries to media.

Hope Kadri and Gardiner (they seem to be in the doghouse) are more mature than these players.

 

[I Believe]

Ugh, people sure love their drama.

 

[htpwn]

I liked Clarke while he played here.

The Ottawa must be rubbing off on him.

 

[TieClark]

Starting to notice a trend.

The only trend I see are the 2 underachievers last year didn't like not getting the top 6 minutes they were accustomed to. We made the playoffs for the first time in a decade last year so I have hard time believing it was the wrong decision to not give them those minutes.