M. Savard, K. Nilsson, Janney, Yashin, Spezza, Larouche, Gomez, Allison

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by seventieslord, Jun 24, 2011.

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  1. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Rank these players, if you can. Consider their all-time value based on what they delivered throughout their entire careers.

    They all have a lot in common. They've all been top-10 in offensive categories at least a couple of times. They're essentially one-dimensional. They've all been very maligned for much of their careers. The eight of them have a combined 5 cups, and 4 other trips to the finals. None are as good as their numbers looked. But they were all good players.

    It seems each of them has a perceived advantage over all/most of the others, as well as a perceived disadvantage:

    - M.Savard was the smallest, particularly relative to era. He's also got the strongest record as a playmaker.
    - Nilsson had the best offensive season of all these players; he's also the worst playoff performer of the bunch.
    - Janney is easily the best playoff producer here. He's also the softest player here.
    - Yashin is the best goalscorer among these guys and is the only one to come close to the Hart; he may also be the worst teammate of the bunch.
    - Spezza had the best single offensive playoff among them; at this point he lacks longevity.
    - Larouche was a streak on skates; he was also very streaky and inconsistent and the worst defensively.
    - Gomez easily made the biggest contributions to good teams (most playoff games, six 10-point playoffs, 22 pts in 2 cup wins), but he's an embarrassingly bad goalscorer, even in this group, his GPG is 24% lower than anyone else here.
    - Allison was the most lethal on the PP; he was also the slowest and most injury-prone.

    I feel there's not much to choose from... am I wrong? Do a couple of them stand out as the very best or worst of the bunch? How would you rank them all and why?
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2011
  2. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    Very interesting grouping of players

    Savard is number 1 quite easily IMO and Allison is the worst at 1st glance, the rest hard to rank will give it some thought.
     
  3. begbeee

    begbeee Registered User

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    Larouche and Nilsson ended their careers in 80's so I am not gonna judge them.

    1. Savard, he really stands out of this group in terms of thresholds and longetivity.
    2. Yashin is the most talented player in this group, as have you said, he could do everything and his overall impact during his peak was highest
    3. Spezza, he could move even on first place..needs time.
    4. Allison, he has some weaknesses but utilized his own pros, PPG player during dead puck era is awesome
    5. Gomez
    6. Janney, really cant find arguments for this player for moving him up
     
  4. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    guys, I don't mean Denis Savard! I mean Marc Savard.
     
  5. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    I wonder what could be motivating this question...heh
     
  6. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    LOL.... seriously, no. I am not champing at the bit to get any of these guys. I believe just 4 of them are "available" anyway. I just find them all very similar and wanted to see if the HOH opinions are much different from where our ATDs and MLDs have slotted them over the years.
     
  7. begbeee

    begbeee Registered User

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    1, Yashin
    2. Savard
    3. Spezza
    -
    4. Allison
    5. Gomez
    6. Janney

    First group is very close to me, especially Spezza can move up.
     
  8. TheJudge

    TheJudge Registered User

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    Not a HoH guru by any means, but I'll have a gander.


    1. Spezza
    2. Savard
    3. Yashin
    4. Nilsson
    5. Janney
    6. Gomez
    7. Allison
    8. Larouche
     
  9. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    adjusted ESGA/GP, career:

    Gomez 0.69
    Spezza 0.74
    Allison 0.75
    Nilsson 0.77
    Savard 0.81
    Larouche 0.83
    Janney 0.84
    Yashin 0.96

    ATOI, career:

    Yashin: 20:03
    Allison: 19:24
    Nilsson: 19:11
    Savard: 18:32
    Spezza: 18:29
    Janney: 18:00
    Gomez: 18:00
    Larouche: 17:10
     
  10. MadArcand

    MadArcand Whaletarded

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    Yashin

    Allison

    Janney
    Savard

    Nilsson
    Spezza

    Gomez

    Larouche
     
  11. Savard only became great in his late twenties.

    Spezza, at 28, is a faceoff leader and dedicated these last two years at improving his defense. So he's more of all-around player these days unlike when he came into the league.

    Spezza also broke most of Yashin's records with the Senators and is considered the franchise's all-time best center.

    At the end of next season, if he plays healthy (without his back problems), it would be reasonable to have him at #1 on that list. I say his numbers look worse than he is right now. He's had terrible linemates all season and managed to beast significantly above ppg to end the season even if he was flanked by Colin Greening and Bobby Butler.
     
  12. begbeee

    begbeee Registered User

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    OK, but you cant deny that Yashin is clearly most talented player from this group, Spezza was more touted prospect (I remember an article about him when he was 15 years old, he was compared to Gretzky), but after all Yashin had more in him.
    Yashin is also the only one player who was considered at least as one of the absolute elite players during his short peak, altough both have equal point finishes (both were 6. once). Comparing to Spezza who is considered (similar to Savard) only as one of the best centers and both of them couldnt even make it to Canada roster on best-on-best tournaments, that says something for sure.
    On the other hand, I cant deny that especially Spezza is on a good way to end as a clearly best player. He is only 26 (EDIT: 28, I wrote it from top of my head) and enters into his prime. Yashin was almost done at that time and Savard had only his first PPG season, obviously it was injury-shortened season.

    Allison was a PPG player (dont forget during what kind of era) and offensively he was on par with anybody from the upper group, if not the best. He has a bad reputation, that's all. I cant put Janney or Gomez over him, I would like to hear arguments for that (for sure there are some), but this is my firm belief.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2011
  13. KingGallagherXI

    KingGallagherXI Registered User

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    80-81
    Wayne Gretzky-EDM 164
    Marcel Dionne-LAK 135
    Kent Nilsson-CGY 131
    Mike Bossy-NYI 119
     
  14. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    I am starting to think Yashin is emerging as the best and Larouche as the worst. As much as it pains me to say. It gives most of us a bad taste in our mouths to say anything good about Yashin... then again, the same can be said for most of these players.
     
  15. jkrx

    jkrx Registered User

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    This is actually quite easy.

    Yashin - had everything and was clearly the best player of these 8.
    Kent Nilsson - Was more talented offensively than Yashin but lack in other areas.

    Spezza - a Tier below the two mentioned players.
    Gomez - Supreme player in the dead puck era but have been dissapointing to watch post-lockout
    Savard - Talented but not as talented as Spezza. Rarely see him play because of injuries.

    Janney - Great playmaker but not much else.
    Larouche - Gifted player but inconsistent.
    Allison - Two great season but barely had a career. A player I like but he was injured far too often.
     
  16. Spezza in 06-07 had the most points in the playoffs. For a few years on the pizza line he was centering what was probably the best line in hockey.

    But I have to say that it is pretty cruel to put Spezza in this thread considering he's only 28 years old and all the other players in here are either retired or over the hill. I personally know from watching every game he plays how great he is and what he's still capable of.

    For example he's been on pace for 100 points since coming back from his lingering back injury. During that time he's outscored Henrik Sedin.

    I think he would be getting more respect if he had played out his great seasons. He was on pace for 110 - 120 for a few.
     
  17. Hardyvan123

    Hardyvan123 [email protected]

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    That's too funny I thought maybe it was him after I went to bed, will have to reorder
     
  18. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Several of those come with a big fat minus (-) in terms of attitude, effort, and/or lack of defensive responsibility, so in terms of worth to a team, I'd rather have a Normie Himes, Skene Ronan, Dutch Reibel or Gus Bodnar than any of the listed modern guys.
     
  19. JazzRockford

    JazzRockford Registered User

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    Do not know enough about Larouche and Janney to comment. My list regarding the others goes like this:

    1. Spezza - center for the league's best line at the time, has been getting better defensively, 2nd best forward on Ottawa in the 2007 playoffs
    2. Yashin - really hard to rank; I don't know how much I should punish him because of lockerroom influence. Best peak
    3. Gomez - played a very useful role on winning teams
    4. Kent Nilsson - such talent, what a peak. Playoffs takes him down here
    5. Janney - playoff performance is that important
    6. Savard - worse peak than the above players, except Gomez, and lacks the intangibles and/or playoff performance needed to be ranked ahead of them (I suppose you could say that about everybody on this list)
    7. Allison - no great team success and PP points is worth less than ES points

    This was a very hard list to do... I'm not very confident in my ranking.
     
  20. overpass

    overpass Registered User

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    In terms of on-ice play to this point, Yashin is probably #1. Big, strong, skilled, and consistently got results without a lot of help from his linemates. But he lost a season and a half to contract disputes - not sure if you want him as your best player.

    Kent Nilsson would be up there too, but he needed somebody to do the dirty work for him in the playoffs and to motivate him. He was a disappointment in Calgary during the playoffs, and it took playing on a line with Messier and Anderson for him to have any playoff success.

    Spezza will end up at the top of this list, if he stays healthy. He's extremely skilled, motivated, and has really improved his all-around game since he entered the league. He might be the best player in the world if it wasn't for his poor skating quickness/agility.

    It's a real shame about Savard, he was really becoming a strong two-way player before he was hurt. I'd put him just behind Spezza - he was a real one-dimensional player and just a good offensive player for most of his 20s, although he had a very good offensive peak for a couple of years.

    Not sure about Larouche, Janney, and Allison. Although Allison's big years came in a very specific setting where his skills were maximized and weaknesses were hidden - the slow dead-puck era game, playing with strong linemates. So I might dock him for that.

    Gomez is IMO the weakest of the group at his peak, although he gets points for consistency and longevity compared to most of these guys. Great skater, and at his best he was a one-man trap-breaker. Nobody was better through the neutral zone with the puck on his stick (at least that I saw in the East - Modano and others in the West were pretty good too.) But he has always had a limited skill set beyond that.
     
  21. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    A Few Points

    Scott Gomez. Never the same after his hip injury in the ECHL during the lockout year.Lost the lateral movement and quickness.

    Pierre Larouche, one of the most talented offensive players to come from the Q but also the one who most closely resembled Alexander Daigle in terms of attitude and dedication to hockey. Would rather be golfing or doing other things.

    Kent Neilson, Alexei Yashin, Jason Spezza. All three were /are unique talents but not one of them ever developed the ideal hockey mindset or focus. Also the coaching they had throughout their careers was often iffy.
     
  22. armani

    armani Guy Likes

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    1. Yashin
    2. Spezza (underrated)
    3. Savard
    4. Gomez
    5. Nilsson
    6. Janney
    7. Allison
    8. Larouche
     
  23. Leaf Lander

    Leaf Lander Registered User Sponsor

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    1. Nilsson
    2. Spezza
    3. Yashin
    4. Savard
    5. Janney
    6. Gomez
    7. Allison
    8. Larouche
     
  24. MS

    MS 1%er

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    Would disagree here.

    His best season (by a mile) came immediately after the lockout and he followed that season up with 3 more seasons that were essentially carbon copies of his years before the lockout.

    I don't disagree that he's lost some of his quickness, but to me it's much more of a general aging thing (as happens for all players) as he passed 30 rather than specific to an injury.

    __________

    As for the players - Larouche is easily the worst. Played wing as opposed to center, was awful defensively as opposed to most of these guys who were somewhat serviceable, and when you adjust his numbers they really aren't great outside of the one year early in his career.

    Yashin was easily the best all-around player in this group at his best. Wasn't a Hart finalist by accident and was one of the best centers in the game for a few years. Unfortunately his holdouts completely tarnish his career. That said, when he was signed and playing he seemed to be well liked by his teammates and it wasn't an issue.
     
  25. tony d

    tony d Registered User Sponsor

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    1) Laoruche
    2) Yashin
    3) Janney
    4) Nilsson
    5) Savard
    6) Spezza
    7) Gomez
    8) Allison
     

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