NBA Lowry vs Billups

[Neutrinos]

It occurred to me the other day that Billups seems like a good comparison for Lowry

Is that a fair comparison?

Many anticipate that Billups will be elected into the Hall of Fame, so has Lowry quietly had himself a Hall of Fame career as well?

Which one would you rather have in their prime?

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[Cassano]

1st stint Pistons Billups was clearly better, no slight to Lowry.

Lowry will make the HOF.

 

[Neutrinos]

1st stint Pistons Billups was clearly better, no slight to Lowry.

Lowry will make the HOF.

Sam Cassell, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Tim Hardaway, Baron Davis

None of them were elected

 

[Cassano]

Sam Cassell, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Tim Hardaway, Baron Davis

None of them were elected

Lowry is better than Cassell (1x all star), KJ only played 735 games (but should be in the Hall, 3x All Star), Mark Price (4x All-Star), Hardaway will get in eventually I think and Davis had a very short peak.

None of those guys won rings as key players either.

 

[Neutrinos]

Lowry is better than Cassell (1x all star), KJ only played 735 games (but should be in the Hall, 3x All Star), Mark Price (4x All-Star), Hardaway will get in eventually I think and Davis had a very short peak.

None of those guys won rings as key players either.

All-star selections are not a great indicator of who the better player was. This is especially true when you consider how heavily a team's record factors in when these selections are made

That's why Beal isn't an all-star this year, but Lowry is

Cassell averaged 18 and 7 over a 10 year stretch, and at his peak was a consistent 20 PPG scorer

Cassell's career PER is 19.5, whereas Lowry's is at 18.3


As for Lowry being a key contributor:

He had a PER of 15.4 during last year's playoffs. He averaged 5 rebounds, 6.6 assists, and 15 points on 44% shooting

In the Finals he had games where he went 2 for 9, 4 for 11, and 3 for 12 from the field

So, he had an inconsistent playoffs, and was good, but not great

How much credit should he get for that?

 

[Cassano]

All-star selections are not a great indicator of who the better player was. This is especially true when you consider how heavily a team's record factors in when these selections are made

That's why Beal isn't an all-star this year, but Lowry is

I agree that it isn't a primary indicator of who the better player was, but it matters in NBA HOF.
Lowry has been better than Beal this season when you factor in defensive play.

Cassell averaged 18 and 7 over a 10 year stretch, and at his peak was a consistent 20 PPG scorer

Cassell's career PER is 19.5, whereas Lowry's is at 18.3

Lowry's WS and WS/48 were way better than Cassell's. He was the best player for the Raptors for the most part from 2013-2020 with the exception of a season or two. These teams usually made deep playoff runs. I think him being a prominent figure for 1 team and probably being the first Raptor whose jersey will be retired will also play a factor.

As for Lowry being a key contributor:

He had a PER of 15.4 during last year's playoffs. He averaged 5 rebounds, 6.6 assists, and 15 points on 44% shooting

In the Finals he had games where he went 2 for 9, 4 for 11, and 3 for 12 from the field

So, he had an inconsistent playoffs, and was good, but not great

How much credit should he get for that?

He'll get a lot of credit for his work away from shooting the ball and his great close out game in a hostile environment. And the narrative how he started with 0 points in the first game to basically carrying the team on his back in the last game.

I'm pretty sure he also had some of the best stats in elimination games prior to last season as well among active NBA players.

 

[Neutrinos]

I agree that it isn't a primary indicator of who the better player was, but it matters in NBA HOF.
Lowry has been better than Beal this season when you factor in defensive play.



Lowry's WS and WS/48 were way better than Cassell's. He was the best player for the Raptors for the most part from 2013-2020 with the exception of a season or two. These teams usually made deep playoff runs. I think him being a prominent figure for 1 team and probably being the first Raptor whose jersey will be retired will also play a factor.


He'll get a lot of credit for his work away from shooting the ball and his great close out game in a hostile environment. And the narrative how he started with 0 points in the first game to basically carrying the team on his back in the last game.

I'm pretty sure he also had some of the best stats in elimination games prior to last season as well among active NBA players.

Cassell does have a higher PER for his career in the playoffs

But even if you have Lowry ahead of Cassell, or believe he was the better player, I think the difference between them is minimal enough that they should be ranked in the same tier

They were both borderline all-stars during their prime

 

[Cassano]

Cassell does have a higher PER for his career in the playoffs

But even if you have Lowry ahead of Cassell, or believe he was the better player, I think the difference between them is minimal enough that they should be ranked in the same tier

They were both borderline all-stars during their prime

With Lowry, I don't think it is's unfair to call it borderline when he's made the All-Star team for 6 straight seasons. Like Billups, the prime of his career was towards the end of his career. In his career as a Raptor, his win shares for the team have been ranked 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 1st(atm). So he has overall been the most consistent player for contenders that eventually won a Championship.

 

[Neutrinos]

With Lowry, I don't think it is's unfair to call it borderline when he's made the All-Star team for 6 straight seasons. Like Billups, the prime of his career was towards the end of his career. In his career as a Raptor, his win shares for the team have been ranked 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 1st(atm). So he has overall been the most consistent player for contenders that eventually won a Championship.

Again, Lowry's all-star selections were heavily influenced by his team's success

And I'm assuming his 3rd place finish in Win Shares was last season. Lowry as the 2nd best player on a team likely wasn't going to result in a championship

Richard Hamilton, a 3x all-star, would be another example of a borderline all-star getting selected in large part due to his team's success. Solid player, but he wasn't better than someone like Michael Redd, who was only an all-star one time because he played on a weaker team

When I say "borderline all-star", I'm referring to players in the 30 - 50 range give or take. Excellent players who are capable of having all-star seasons, but generally aren't good enough to be the 2nd best player on a contender

 

[Stylizer1]

I don't think players who have windows of greatness should be in the HOF. Those players are usually on the right team at the right time and fit into a system where they excel. Hall of famers are players who can play anywhere and be great. I also think you need to have individual awards that separated you from your peers that shows you were a great player.

 

[Voight]

The Raptors being one of the leagues best teams again, despite losing a top 3 player and not really replacing him is partially due to Lowry. He has remained consistent and played great this year.

I think being the Raptors franchise player/face of the team (many fans I know have said he was surpassed Vinsanity in that regard) will help his case. I.E. he'd be the first "Raptor" in the hall (like how in Cooperstown players get a cap from their most notable team).

 

[tony d]

I still take Billups over Lowry. Still both are solid players and I think both make the Hall of Fame. Lowry looks to be on his way to being the best Raptor ever.

 

[Stylizer1]

I don't think Billups is a HOF at all. him and Lowry are borderline allstars.