Lost Season- Sun Story

[KingBogo]

It's your money and if that makes you happy that's great seriously.
I just don't see any plan other than what 29 other teams do.
If moves aren't made other than D&D well think Oilers ....
Are you going to be happy then ?

But you 1st need to get the young talent to drive the bus. The Hawks aren't winning cups without drafting and developing their own picks before adding get vets to support them. Same with the Kings or any other team that seriously challenges for cups. IMO we needed to find a way off the bubble track and that was always far more likely to require a drop to the bottom to bring in the necessary young talent to one day contend.

And once some good management takes hold with the Oilers don't be surprised if the become a very good team very quickly.

 

[Aavco Cup]

It's your money and if that makes you happy that's great seriously.
I just don't see any plan other than what 29 other teams do.
If moves aren't made other than D&D well think Oilers ....
Are you going to be happy then ?

And this is a reason to stop attending hockey games?

 

[CaptainChef]

I labelled Chevy a ditherer and would be interested to know how I'm "pivoting". What would you call a manager that waits 3 years to trade Evander Kane after requesting a trade every year - and even then only trading him after the circus turned into a national media scandal and he put himself on the IR? What phase of the plan was that?

What would you call a manager who still has Ondrej Pavelec as the starter in year 5, going into year 6, when most teams would have bought him out two years ago or more and virtually every team would have replaced him as their starter? His plan to improve goaltending seems to hinge on drafting a kid from the Odessa Jackelopes in the 5th round of 2012 and then praying that he becomes a world beater in 2017. Does that sound like a man of action to you? The Ladd trade was proactive? What was Andrew Ladd worth at 26 years old with years left on his contract in 2013? Atlanta was the laughingstock of the league because they waited to trade Hossa and Kovalchuk as UFAs on expiring contracts - decisions that set them back years. When Chevy does it with Ladd after trying to sign him for 8 months, it's proactive?

Finally, can you name a team in the last 40 years that misses the playoffs for 8 years, makes it in and then starts to rebuild that offseason?

Kind of shot down that argument.

There can be no denying that Chevy is a true ditherer that lets time make his decisions. [mod]

 

[Eyeseeing]

And this is a reason to stop attending hockey games?

Never said it was..
We all love hockey here , we just have different opinions on what we would like to see, a perpetual bubble team or at the very least a club that can make the playoffs.
Not agreeing on how a team is run is not treasonous.
Both sides of this debate have dug their heels in and are defending their positions.
I did not think we would be worse off after year 5 did you ?
We talk about tanking like its a good thing , personally I hate losing and getting the top picks year after year has done nothing for the Oilers.
I am not hopeful unless we clear out the dead weight which our GM signed which is unlikely.
Remember this is the guy who extended our ST coaches as well, does this seem reasonable to you ?
We need a GM who can improve our bottom 6 and fix the goaltending issue not a GM who
continually rewards mediocrity.
I think this is the biggest disconnect between the pro Chevy and anti Chevy sides.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Never said it was..
We all love hockey here , we just have different opinions on what we would like to see, a perpetual bubble team or at the very least a club that can make the playoffs.
Not agreeing on how a team is run is not treasonous.
Both sides of this debate have dug their heels in and are defending their positions.
I did not think we would be worse off after year 5 did you ?
We talk about tanking like its a good thing , personally I hate losing and getting the top picks year after year has done nothing for the Oilers.
I am not hopeful unless wie clear out the dead weight which our GM signed which is unlikely.
Remember this is the guy who extended our ST coaches as well, does this seem reasonable to you ?
We need a GM who can improve our bottom 6 and fix the goaltending issue not a GM who
continually rewards mediocrity.
I think this is the biggest disconnect between the pro Chevy and anti Chevy sides.

Sorry, I thought you were discussing whether or not To keep season tickets.

If you're attempting to get me to pile onto the hate Chevy crowd, it's not happening. I think Chevy has done an adequate job (neither great or terrible) at fullfilling the mandate he was given by his employer.

 

[Whileee]

It's your money and if that makes you happy that's great seriously.
I just don't see any plan other than what 29 other teams do.
If moves aren't made other than D&D well think Oilers ....
Are you going to be happy then ?

So, every team drafts, trades and signs free agents. The Jets do that too, so they must not have a "plan"?

They have made moves.... Traded 3 core players in the past 13 months, getting back 2 first round picks, 3 solid prospects, a top-4 D and a top-9 forward. Having more scouting resources than other teams and then trading for extra picks and prospects is part of a "plan". Putting resources into player development and building a roster via your drafted players rather than through free agency and trading picks for players is a "plan". Deciding which players to sign and which ones not to sign is actually part of a "plan".

I can agree that Chevy hasn't been fastidious about adhering to a plan, but it seems to me that focusing resources and roster development through draft and develop, making trades that in line with that, and making contract decisions that match with the roster development is a plan. It might not be original, and it won't be successful if not well-executed. But suggesting that the Jets are just acting randomly and not following any sort of strategy seems to go a bit far.

 

[Hunter368]

Hmm, the mood in this thread has changed considerably since the last time I came on to read it 3-4 days ago. It's now less retrospective and discussing team building philosophy.

I'm looking forward to the draft and seeing this team develop over the next 1-2 years. I'm trying to not dwell on Chevy's mistakes, lost time and missed opportunities. I've seen some positive moments watching our new team lately and look forward to seeing more next year.

 

[Whileee]

Never said it was..
We all love hockey here , we just have different opinions on what we would like to see, a perpetual bubble team or at the very least a club that can make the playoffs.
Not agreeing on how a team is run is not treasonous.
Both sides of this debate have dug their heels in and are defending their positions.
I did not think we would be worse off after year 5 did you ?
We talk about tanking like its a good thing , personally I hate losing and getting the top picks year after year has done nothing for the Oilers.
I am not hopeful unless we clear out the dead weight which our GM signed which is unlikely.
Remember this is the guy who extended our ST coaches as well, does this seem reasonable to you ?
We need a GM who can improve our bottom 6 and fix the goaltending issue not a GM who
continually rewards mediocrity.
I think this is the biggest disconnect between the pro Chevy and anti Chevy sides.

I think that the disconnect is at two levels. First, defining the problem. As you've stated above, you appear to think that the problem with the Jets is the bottom six and goaltending, and if he had moved quickly to resolve that and were able to make the playoffs you rate that as success. I disagree. I think that the main problems was the lack of a core of players that are capable of leading a real contending team and the complete absence of a prospect pool to feed the main team with inexpensive young talent to fill out the bottom six. I'd prefer Chevy to focus on those problems than on tinkering with the bottom six and trying to find short-term solutions in goal. The second relates to how to fix the problems and the time frame. I think that the best solution to fixing the bottom-6 is by developing players in the system who can feed the main club. That takes time, because you need to wait for drafted players to be ready. We are just now seeing the Jets' first waves of draft picks showing that they can compete at the NHL level. Could they have signed better players for the bottom-6 in the meantime? Of course. But every team is trying to do that, and usually the top teams have a huge advantage over the bottom teams in getting good bottom-6 players. In the end, the best teams use their own development system to feed their bottom six.

You say that Chevy has done nothing to fix the bottom-6 and goaltending. I disagree.

Dano, Lowry, Armia, Copp, Petan, Kosmachuk, Lemieux, etc. These are all much better options for the bottom-6 than the Jets have ever had, and I believe that they'll stack up quite favourably to other teams' bottom-6 with a bit of experience. For goaltending, the Jets have Hellebuyck and Comrie, two excellent prospects with one ready to take over an NHL role.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

All: please tone down discussing posters, and discuss the points being brought up. I've had to do some clean-up in this thread, and I'll start handing out infractions next if it continues.

Critique posts, not posters, ad stop labelling other posters - this whole "pro-Chevy / anti-Chevy" thing is a weak argument that serves no purpose other than to inflame.

Thanks.

 

[Whileee]

Agree with this. And there has been progress despite the results. This team, when healthy, is far better than the team 3-5 years ago that would go into places like LA, Chi, Ana, and SJ and have to batten down the hatches and hope for a miracle goaltending display to get a point. We can go toe-to-toe with any team in the league now at 5v5 and it's been like that for the better part of two seasons.

The "aha" moment for me came a few seasons ago when the Jets took a swan dive that culminated in back-to-back pummeling by the Caps to get knocked out of any playoff race. I remember watching the game and thinking that the Jets were simply out-classed. The only player on the Jets that seemed quick and talented enough to hang with the Caps was Burmistrov. It was pretty clear that the future of the Jets could not depend on the existing core.

It's easy to understand why a lot of fans have become impatient that they didn't address this earlier, but I expect that they had conflicting influences. For one thing, I think that they were sensitive to the challenge of trying to make Winnipeg an organization that good players wanted to join and stay with. The specter of being a pariah among talented NHLers as a destination to avoid must have worried them a bit. If they had brought in a group like Ladd, Wheeler, Buff, etc. and torn the team down to the studs right away, and had their young players coming into a situation of poor leadership and no competitive drive, they might have been concerned that it would have long-term negative consequences on the perspective about the franchise.

 

[DK59]

Hmm, the mood in this thread has changed considerably since the last time I came on to read it 3-4 days ago. It's now less retrospective and discussing team building philosophy.

I'm looking forward to the draft and seeing this team develop over the next 1-2 years. I'm trying to not dwell on Chevy's mistakes, lost time and missed opportunities. I've seen some positive moments watching our new team lately and look forward to seeing more next year.

I am totally with you on this. It is whole lot more enjoyable looking forward to the future rather dwelling on what has transpired in the past. And it is nice that we are witnessing some things do give us reasons to get a little bit excited. Going into this year I did not mind our team but I was not completely sold on where we were going in the short run so I see what is happening as a positive. I think many of us have been looking for the team to pick a clear direction and the events of this past season have certainly allowed this to happen.

 

[JetsFan815]

The big question now is, what do STHs do if Chevy comes out during the offseason and pronounces Pavs to be the starter like he has done for the past 3 years. And then on the opening night Pavs is the starter again. I don't live in WPG or have season tickets but if I did, I would organize a public bonfire outside the MTS Center and symbolically burn some tickets with some other STHs to send a message. The management has wasted 5 years by trotting out Pavelec game after game eventhough we all know he shouldn't be. I don't think things are going to change before his contract expires unless the management is publicly shamed into giving someone else the net.

 

[Hunter368]

The big question now is, what do STHs do if Chevy comes out during the offseason and pronounces Pavs to be the starter like he has done for the past 3 years. And then on the opening night Pavs is the starter again. I don't live in WPG or have season tickets but if I did, I would organize a public bonfire outside the MTS Center and symbolically burn some tickets with some other STHs to send a message. The management has wasted 5 years by trotting out Pavelec game after game eventhough we all know he shouldn't be. I don't think things are going to change before his contract expires unless the management is publicly shamed into giving someone else the net.

I would not be happy, but I'm not holding my breath either. I expect Pavs to play out his contract on the team, I'm just hoping he doesn't get anymore than 25-30 games.

No one will trade for the worse starter over the last 5 years. Jets are to cheap to buy him out or send him down. That single contract hurt this team badly over the last 5 years.

 

[Aavco Cup]

The big question now is, what do STHs do if Chevy comes out during the offseason and pronounces Pavs to be the starter like he has done for the past 3 years. And then on the opening night Pavs is the starter again. I don't live in WPG or have season tickets but if I did, I would organize a public bonfire outside the MTS Center and symbolically burn some tickets with some other STHs to send a message. The management has wasted 5 years by trotting out Pavelec game after game eventhough we all know he shouldn't be. I don't think things are going to change before his contract expires unless the management is publicly shamed into giving someone else the net.

What are you suggesting here? STH would lose a large deposit if they don't fullfill their contract. Most P1 & P2 just renewed for 5 more years.

 

[JetsFan815]

What are you suggesting here? STH would lose a large deposit if they don't fullfill their contract. Most P1 & P2 just renewed for 5 more years.

I posted exactly what I think the STH should do 2 lines after the words you highlighted

 

[Whileee]

The big question now is, what do STHs do if Chevy comes out during the offseason and pronounces Pavs to be the starter like he has done for the past 3 years. And then on the opening night Pavs is the starter again. I don't live in WPG or have season tickets but if I did, I would organize a public bonfire outside the MTS Center and symbolically burn some tickets with some other STHs to send a message. The management has wasted 5 years by trotting out Pavelec game after game eventhough we all know he shouldn't be. I don't think things are going to change before his contract expires unless the management is publicly shamed into giving someone else the net.

They gave Hutch the net last season, and he gave it back to Pavs (who sort of ran with it down the stretch). They would have been perfectly happy to give Hutch the net this season, but he wasn't up to the task. I'm pretty sure that if Hellebuyck is ready they'll be happy to give him the crease over Pavs, him being Chevy's draftee and star goalie prospect, and all. That doesn't mean that they will announce that before the season. It's not usual for a coach / GM to announce a rookie as the starter before a season. There's really no upside to that approach, unless they want to avoid having some fans give up their STs to folks on the waiting list.

 

[Digital Kid]

The Jets are my second-favourite team and I follow them with interest.

1. Draft and develop is slow, but what do you do when free agent generally prefer US teams than Canadian team? Perreault was a good signing, but top-tier guys just won't go to Wpg.
2. Many cities like Wpg and Edm are unfairly rated as places to live, so players have "No Trade to Wpg" clauses. What do you do? You overpay for guys like Enstrom and Pavelec who are willing to play for the Jets. Someone has to play goal, so you can only work with those that will play goal in Wpg.
3. Edmonton is an example of rushing guys into the league too fast. Schiefele is a great example of doing things right. But it's taken five years. How do you speed up time? You can't. A lot of the draft picks might be too young or need to adjust against "men". Ehlers didn't score 60 points this year. What do you do? What if the draft picks don't pan out?

It's tough, but to me the wrong decisions were made when Stempniak and Frolik were let go for guys who weren't ready to play.

Spending at the bottom of the Cap is highly unlikely to achieve results, and if there was trouble signing free agent after a 99-point season, good luck with a 70-point season.

It may be time to find a different special teams coach, and perhaps time to evaluate future new GMs and coaches. Just in case.

 

[Aavco Cup]

I posted exactly what I think the STH should do 2 lines after the words you highlighted

Unrealistic. I thought you were being sarcastic

 

[scelaton]

The big question now is, what do STHs do if Chevy comes out during the offseason and pronounces Pavs to be the starter like he has done for the past 3 years. And then on the opening night Pavs is the starter again. I don't live in WPG or have season tickets but if I did, I would organize a public bonfire outside the MTS Center and symbolically burn some tickets with some other STHs to send a message. The management has wasted 5 years by trotting out Pavelec game after game eventhough we all know he shouldn't be. I don't think things are going to change before his contract expires unless the management is publicly shamed into giving someone else the net.

I don't think you understand the mood in Winnipeg or among STHs at all. STHs are renewing their P1 and P2s at a 95% rate. The mood at MTSC is muted but not angry or despairing. Most Jets fans are looking forward to the future prospects with hope, and the Pavelec era is nearly over.
You're deluding yourself if you think there is any real sentiment in support of the bolded, outside small pockets on these boards.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

I don't think you understand the mood in Winnipeg or among STHs at all. STHs are renewing their P1 and P2s at a 95% rate. The mood at MTSC is muted but not angry or despairing. Most Jets fans are looking forward to the future prospects with hope, and the Pavelec era is nearly over.
You're deluding yourself if you think there is any real sentiment in support of the bolded, outside small pockets on these boards.

We are certainly still years away from the "How-Lowe-Can-We Go?" fan sponsored billboard campaign in Edmonton or other acts of public shaming/protest of management.

That said, its probably not wise to speak on behalf of Winnipeggers or the mood of STHs unless you have a public opinion poll. The ST renewal rate is not a management approval rating - I've renewed my seats and I obviously don't approve. In fact, of all my friends with STs, I don't know anyone who hasn't or doesn't intend to renew while also simultaneously having expressed doubts or concerns with the management or direction of the team. However, I wouldn't use the sentiment of my social circle as evidence of the collective mood - I simply don't know and neither do you.

 

[tbcwpg]

Using STH renewals as an indicator of satisfaction or dissatisfaction isn't the greatest of metrics, especially for a team where the renewals require a multi-year commitment. No one wants to be the guy who gives up his tickets because the team is bad right now, just to miss out on playoff hockey 2, 3+ years down the road.

I also think it's unrealistic to suggest what STHs "should do", especially when they aren't STHs themselves.

I also don't want to be a STH for a team who allows their fans to dictate which players should start with "symbolic" public protests outside the main doors at Portage and Donald. There's a difference between the Edmonton billboard campaign about Kevin Lowe and a public ticket bonfire about Pavelec as the starting goalie for the last year of his contract.

I will say, that if the team gets any of the top 3 players in the draft, that the off-season and pre-season hype message from the team will be about that player, and not about Pavelec being the starting goaltender, or Stuart playing on the 3rd pairing or PK unit. I don't know if the overall feeling from fans as a collective unit, and not just this board, is as passionate about the Stuart/Thorburn debate as the posters here.

 

[Hunter368]

We are certainly still years away from the "How-Lowe-Can-We Go?" fan sponsored billboard campaign in Edmonton or other acts of public shaming/protest of management.

That said, its probably not wise to speak on behalf of Winnipeggers or the mood of STHs unless you have a public opinion poll. The ST renewal rate is not a management approval rating - I've renewed my seats and I obviously don't approve. In fact, of all my friends with STs, I don't know anyone who hasn't or doesn't intend to renew while also simultaneously having expressed doubts or concerns with the management or direction of the team. However, I wouldn't use the sentiment of my social circle as evidence of the collective mood - I simply don't know and neither do you.

Agreed. I'm a sth and I'm not giving up my tickets permanently, although I sold virtually this entire year, not paying to watch that crap team. But I'm also very annoyed at the general mishandling of the team, many mistakes, poor public PR, lost time, etc. Ive seen many people fired for less in my career.

 

[JetsFan815]

Unrealistic. I thought you were being sarcastic

My larger point is that STH can affect change without cancelling their tickets or boycotting games (as fanbases have done in Tor & Edm in recent years for example), I specifically mentioned Pavelec as the Pavelec situtation is something that all Jets fans regardless of their opinions on other things agree on.

 

[JetsFan815]

Sorry if this is the wrong thread for this but though this was an interesting article http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/cost-icing-winning-team-nhl/ basically saying that not spending in the current NHL is virtual guarantee for failure