OT: Los Angeles Angels Talk

Hockey Duckie

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Although Arte is himself an obstacle, Eppler still favored hitting over pitching and doubled down every season. In his five draft seasons, he's only drafted a pitcher once in the first round. He traded away 2019 first rounder SS Wilson for a salary dump enticer.

Eppler didn't learn from Dipoto after the whole Greinke off-season. Dipoto figured out that Arte won't spend big money on pitchers as Arte prefers hitters b/c hitters will be on the field every game while pitchers are on the field ever fifth game. This is why Dipoto traded for young, cost controlled pitchers starting in the 2013 season. Eppler never learned his lesson in five seasons, always looking for dumpster dives to turn into riches. It has happened only once in his five seasons - this past year with Bundy.

Still, Arte remains the immovable object... Arte, Carpino, and Kuhl... ::: sighs :::
 

MMC

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5th GM in 13 years. I have nothing to back it up but that has to be close to the top of the league for front office turnover during that time period, right?

The posts above me nail it. Nothing changes until Arte sells unofrtunately. The Angels need a president of baseball operations that can come in and completely restructure everything top to bottom like Epstein and friedman do. John Carpino has been the Angels president throughout this whole period of sucktitude and yet no one even metions him. Why does he still have a job despite the GM being fired every 3 years? ISnt he supposed to be involved in the hiring of these guys?

Until Arte finds that guy (which hes proven he cant), nothing really changes.
Carpino doesn’t have much influence on the baseball side, he’s pretty much purely a business guy
 

AngelDuck

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Carpino doesn’t have much influence on the baseball side, he’s pretty much purely a business guy
So does that make Arte the president of baseball operations? Was he Eppler’s main boss on the baseball side of things?

Those things don’t make me feel comfortable. The Angels need a dude who’s going to come in and tell Arte the only way he takes the job is if he has full autonomy of all operations related to the team put out on the field. That’s what the dodgers owners have let Friedman do. That’s what the A’s have let Beane do for YEARS...big shock it’s worked wonders for them. Arte’s sole role should be to write checks and be Involved in the fan experience both at the stadium and on TV.

Just the lone idea that he vetoed the Rengifo for Pederson/Stripling trade should put chills down the spine of everyone. It means he’s still making calls and might want to continue

if he can’t grasp that then he needs to sell and take his cash. Because we’ll never build a winner
 

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Multiple sources in baseball have said that arte is one of the toughest owners to work for because he is both incredibly demanding as well as inserts himself into baseball operations.

I'm bummed about Eppler. By all accounts he is a great boss and baseball mind who managed to step on every landmine possible in the last five years.
 

ADHB

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So does that make Arte the president of baseball operations? Was he Eppler’s main boss on the baseball side of things?

Those things don’t make me feel comfortable. The Angels need a dude who’s going to come in and tell Arte the only way he takes the job is if he has full autonomy of all operations related to the team put out on the field. That’s what the dodgers owners have let Friedman do. That’s what the A’s have let Beane do for YEARS...big shock it’s worked wonders for them. Arte’s sole role should be to write checks and be Involved in the fan experience both at the stadium and on TV.

Just the lone idea that he vetoed the Rengifo for Pederson/Stripling trade should put chills down the spine of everyone. It means he’s still making calls and might want to continue

if he can’t grasp that then he needs to sell and take his cash. Because we’ll never build a winner
The Angels don't have anyone remotely similar to a president of baseball ops. The GM has always reported directly to Arte. Theoretically, Eppler was the main boss on the baseball side of things, but in reality it didn't work like that. Arte meddled in everything from dictating which FA's they signed to his input on trades. They need to install the president/GM sort of hierarchy, not only because it keeps Arte directly out of baseball decisions but because it allows them to hire someone with some real expertise and experience. Arte needs to set the budget and get the hell out of the way.

If they hire an up-and-coming GM like they have the last 3x, it's just going to be more of the same with Arte dictating things.

edit: Didn't read your post all the way through. Seems like I just said what you said, in different words lol.
 
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ADHB

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Multiple sources in baseball have said that arte is one of the toughest owners to work for because he is both incredibly demanding as well as inserts himself into baseball operations.

I'm bummed about Eppler. By all accounts he is a great boss and baseball mind who managed to step on every landmine possible in the last five years.
Eppler was the anti-Dipoto in the sense he seemed to be pretty non-confrontational. He seemed to be able to influence people without pissing anyone off, and therefore was able to institute more modern things like an expanded analytic department. Angels are moving on without him, but hopefully some of the things he put in place will help the team down the road, assuming it isn't all torn down by ownership or new management.
 

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Eppler was the anti-Dipoto in the sense he seemed to be pretty non-confrontational. He seemed to be able to influence people without pissing anyone off, and therefore was able to institute more modern things like an expanded analytic department. Angels are moving on without him, but hopefully some of the things he put in place will help the team down the road, assuming it isn't all torn down by ownership or new management.
He modernized the baseball operations department but wasn't able to fully see his vision through because he didn't have control. Any idiot with a resume is going to see the trend here, and I do wonder if that keeps the best candidates away.
 
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AngelDuck

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The Angels don't have anyone remotely similar to a president of baseball ops. The GM has always reported directly to Arte. Theoretically, Eppler was the main boss on the baseball side of things, but in reality it didn't work like that. Arte meddled in everything from dictating which FA's they signed to his input on trades. They need to install the president/GM sort of hierarchy, not only because it keeps Arte directly out of baseball decisions but because it allows them to hire someone with some real expertise and experience. Arte needs to set the budget and get the hell out of the way.

If they hire an up-and-coming GM like they have the last 3x, it's just going to be more of the same with Arte dictating things.

edit: Didn't read your post all the way through. Seems like I just said what you said, in different words lol.

hmm..so that’s why your post sounded so well thought out :D
 

AngelDuck

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He modernized the baseball operations department but wasn't able to fully see his vision through because he didn't have control. Any idiot with a resume is going to see the trend here, and I do wonder if that keeps the best candidates away.
Yeah. That’s why I think we just have to get lucky with the right candidate walking into the interview and demanding that Arte stay out of things

what a crap situation
 

ADHB

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He modernized the baseball operations department but wasn't able to fully see his vision through because he didn't have control. Any idiot with a resume is going to see the trend here, and I do wonder if that keeps the best candidates away.
Yeah. That's why while I'm not a huge fan of Dombrowski, the only way he takes the job is if he's given the reins to the whole organization without outside interference. That would be better than the alternative.
 

ADHB

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The bottom line is does Arte want to give the franchise its best chance for success, or would it not mean anything if he doesn't get to insert himself into how it's run? Would he rather be in the background and win, or treat the team as his toy and lose?
 

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The bottom line is does Arte want to give the franchise its best chance for success, or would it not mean anything if he doesn't get to insert himself into how it's run? Would he rather be in the background and win, or treat the team as his toy and lose?
I don't think that is a decision he can make because I think that behavior is just indicative of who he is. It would be like asking someone to just turn off his personality, he just isn't capable of that.

The angels only hope is to win despite his control issues or wait until he dies.
 

Hockey Duckie

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Multiple sources in baseball have said that arte is one of the toughest owners to work for because he is both incredibly demanding as well as inserts himself into baseball operations.

I'm bummed about Eppler. By all accounts he is a great boss and baseball mind who managed to step on every landmine possible in the last five years.

I didn't know if I liked Eppler or not, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I understood why he traded the unknown in P Newcomb for the known in SS Simba. It was a good move. The only problem is that Eppler didn't invest enough in pitching. After two seasons of finishing below .500 and not addressing the pitching enough going into 2018, we can follow a similar outcome. We landed Ohtani before the 2018 season, but that's it. In five seasons, the Angels have never had a .500 season nor prevented less than 700 runs allowed in all five seasons. (You can extrapolate this year's runs allowed and it's similar to 2018-19 season.)

Angels
YearGMPCTRun ScoredRuns AllowedDiff
2012DiPoto0.54976769968
2013DiPoto0.481733737-4
2014DiPoto0.605773630143
2015DiPoto0.525661675-14
2016Eppler0.457717727-10
2017Eppler0.4947107091
2018Eppler0.494721722-1
2019Eppler0.444769868-99
2020Eppler0.433294321-27
2020162 gamesextrapolated793.80866.7-72.9
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I'm not bummed at all about Eppler. He's great at collecting shiny bits, but it's mostly one-sided focus. He dumpster dived for pitching to fill out the rest of the pitching staff. His pathway never deviated. Now, if Eppler was given more money, then he probably could invest in top end pitching. But Eppler has constraints. Dipoto had the same constraints as Eppler, but he had focused on pitching.

ADHB wrote:
Eppler was the anti-Dipoto in the sense he seemed to be pretty non-confrontational.​

I like Dipoto and the fact he identified the problem within the Angels organization. Dipoto wants to win and has a vision to get there. He was deterred by Sosh and Arte. Remember, Dipoto's supposed to be the GM and all baseball operations should go through him. He put the organization on blast because Dipoto knows what his proper GM duties are. Five years later, we see that Dipoto was fighting for his club to be successful, but Sosh and Arte had other plans.

In 2018-19, manager Asmus followed GM Eppler's analytical plan to a T. It blew up and Asmus became the fall guy despite implementing Eppler's plan. Eppler should have been fired last year.

As intrusive as Arte is, Eppler still made the moves he made for the past five years. Look at our farm system today. It's bottom dwelling despite Eppler having a first round pick for all five seasons of his tenure. Dipoto's last draft, in 2015, were on display this year for the Angels in Rd 1 Ward, Rd 2 Jahmai Jones, Rd 6 Fletcher, Rd 39 Jered Walsh. Also from the 2015 draft, was Rd 3 P Grayson Long, who was used in a trade to acquire OF Upton. Crazy, right?

Dipoto is the GM of the Mariners with full rein. He told the owners two years ago that the current construct of the team was maxed out and there's no way they can compete with the teams ahead despite an 89-73 record (0.549). That's how good the AL was back then. The owners bought into Dipoto's plan. Now, they're sitting pretty with eyes on the playoffs in 2021 season. That's a quick two-year turn around, but they had top prospects in place, kept key players, and signed FA Kukichi within that span. And their farm team is ranked in the top-10, and that was before the trade deadline where they picked up prospect OF Trammell. Ty France also turned to be a boon for the Mariners, who was part of the return with Trammell. In their updated top-10, they have four pitchers: 3. RHP Hancock, 4. RHP Gilbert, 6. RHP Kirby, and 10. LHP Williamson. Gilbert could debut sometime in 2021. They might have the AL rookie of the year in OF Kyle Lewis. The Mariners also have money to burn if they so choose to do so, which they might for bullpen help.

Their starting pitching next year has four out of the five starters known in Marco Gonzalez, Sheffield, Dunn, and Kukichi. They'll need a fifth while Gilbert still develops. (I don't trust Kukichi, though.) Dipoto will need to address the bullpen this off-season, which he kinda already started on the last days of the season as he picked up a 96-98 mph relief pitcher on the waiver wire in Ian Hamilton. Dipoto thinks his coaches can help fix him. That's Dipoto kicking tires on a low risk move. Why weren't we in on Hamilton?

Arte is a problem. Eppler was another problem. Let's hope the next GM isn't as complacent as Eppler was. Although Dipoto did put the Angels organization/owner on blast, Moreno wasn't phased by it. Moreno isn't in the MLB to win. He's in it for profit and power. The Angels are another billboard to him. That's how I see Arte. Arte is going to be building a venue near Angels Stadium. Just building up around that billboard.
 

Deuce22

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Whoever Moreno hires is going to start out behind the eight ball. So much money given to position players, with two of those contracts (Pujols, Upton) being impossible to move. Eppler tried to address the years of ignoring the farm system, but quality pitching is not coming up from within. Canning has some potential, but until his command improves, he's just another mediocre arm. It's going to be difficult to address the pitching problem through free agency unless the new GM continues the dumpster diving ways of Eppler. Moreno's ego has kept his GM's from being able to construct a winning roster, he's seemingly only concerned with signing big name FA's to stir up media and fan interest.
 

Hockey Duckie

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Whoever Moreno hires is going to start out behind the eight ball. So much money given to position players, with two of those contracts (Pujols, Upton) being impossible to move. Eppler tried to address the years of ignoring the farm system, but quality pitching is not coming up from within.

Huh. Did Eppler improve the farm system, considering he possessed 1st round picks in all his five years of his drafting tenure? Not really. Remember, Dipoto lost consecutive 1st round picks in 2012 and 2013 because owner Arte wanted 1B Pujols in 2012 and OF Hamilton in 2013.

1st rd picks
Dipoto
2012 - lost to FA Pujols
2013 - lost to OF Hamilton
2014 - P Newcomb (traded in a package to get SS Simmons by Eppler)
2015 - C Ward​
Eppler
2016 - C Thaiss
2017 - OF Adell
2018 - OF Adams
2019 - SS Will Wilson (traded in a package to help a salary dump for Angels)
2020 - LHP Detmers​

Despite the rhetoric that the farm was "ignored", there were a couple of teams that thought higher than the mass media rhetoric. P Newcomb and fellow 2014 3rd rd P Ellis helped land SS Simmons in a trade. 2015 3rd round P Grayson Long helped land OF Upton trade. Also, I listed this in a previous comment that you probably didn't care to read, the following 2015 draftees appeared in games for the MLB Angels this year: Ward, Jones, Fletcher, and Walsh. Fletcher has been with the Angels before this year.

Outside of Adell, it's pretty bare until P Detmers for 1st rounders under Eppler. Eppler traded away his 2019 1st round pick! In 2019, Eppler could have drafted a pitcher.

Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus, and Milb farm team ranking, Angels
2010: 26th
2011: 15th
2012: 19th No 1st rd pick
2013: 30th (Mike Trout graduated and Segura was traded for P Greinke), No 1st rd pick
2014: 30th
2015: 28th (P Heaney was top prospect, acquired via trading away 2B Kendrick)
2016: 30th (P Newcomb and P Ellis traded away to acquire OF Upton)
2017: 29th
2018: 14th (Ohtani signed)
2019: 15th (Adell rising and Canning)
2020: 26th​

As you can see, without Trout, Dipoto wasn't left with much talent. No first round picks in 2012 and 2013 hurts the Angels accrue top end talent. There was a slight bump in 2015 with Heaney and Newcomb. Eppler hit it big with Ohtani and Adell, but Ohtani was a FA signing coming from Japan. We've fallen because Thaiss didn't pan out just yet and Wilson was traded away, both first round selections.

Eppler had more chances at the improving the farm team more than Dipoto did with five first round picks compared to Dipoto having only two first round picks. Eppler didn't lose a 1st rd pick when 3B Rendon was signed as a FA because of the new rules. For all the complaint that Eppler was given a slightly barren farm team, he hasn't improved it that much in his five seasons. Doesn't Eppler now share the blame of leaving the farm team somewhat in need of improvement for the next GM?

Dipoto's 1st round draft picks for the Mariners (ranking in their system today)
2015: no 1st rd pick... this is here for reference. Dipoto didn't take charge until after the 2015 season.
2016: OF Kyle Lewis (graduated)
2017: 1B Evan White (graduated)
2018: RHP Gilbert (#4)
2019: RHP Kirby (#6)
2020: RHP Hancock (#3)​

Here's proof of what Dipoto can do if given the chance to draft. Granted, Dipoto made a lot of trades that improve the farm system by leap years with OF Kelenic (#1), OF Trammell (#5), LHP Sheffield (graduated), LHP Dunn (graduated) as well as hit it big with international signing of OF Rodriguez (#2). Kyle Lewis is in the running of AL ROY this season. Kelenic, Sheffield, and Dunn were 1st round picks with their respective drafting team. Trammell was a competitive balance selection, 35th overall. Those 1st round picks matter.

So not only did Eppler not improve the farm team vastly in five seasons, he didn't win at the MLB level as well. Maybe we should stop with Eppler inherited a weak farm team rhetoric if you're going to ignore he also left the farm team weak after five seasons, especially if you're going to omit that Arte cost Dipoto two first round picks and prospect SS Segura!
 

Anaheim4ever

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Neither Eppler or Dipoto are GM of the Angels anymore and people are still debating them lol.

Adell is probably getting his bags packed for when Dombrowski takes over and trades him away.
 

Hockey Duckie

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Neither Eppler or Dipoto are GM of the Angels anymore and people are still debating them lol.

Adell is probably getting his bags packed for when Dombrowski takes over and trades him away.

I like proper history, not rhetorical history. That way we have an accurate comparison. As you notice, people are still not accepting what is as an excuse. You beat wrong speech with correct speech. After year 2 of Eppler, I've been proven correct year after year once you accept Eppler's pattern and production. Accurate history helps to have accurate comparison. This can also help with comparable parallels.

This segues into Adell, one of Eppler's first round draft picks. Eppler drafted position players in his first four drafts and, finally, a pitcher in the fifth draft season of first round picks. Now add the context that Eppler has been trading pitching for positional players (2014 Rd 1 P Newcomb and Rd 3 P Ellis for SS Simmons; 2015 Rd 3 P Long + for OF Upton) and spent a lot of money on FA positional players such as 3B Cozart 3 years for $38 mil, OF Upton 5 years for $106 mil, and 3B Rendon 7-years for $245 mil, to name a few.

We can use this example with the Ducks going into this year's draft. We have NHL defensemen signed for quite a few years with a #1 Lindholm (age 26) and #3 Fowler (age 28). We have our top-5 out of 7 NHL defensive roster set with some 2nd pairing potential prospects in our farm system. The NHL club is missing goal scoring and has been missing it for the past three seasons. Do the Ducks draft a defenseman with the #6 overall or address that black hole lack of talent at forward to induce more goal scoring (we don't necessarily need a goal scorer only forward)?

The Angels did not need to draft four position players from 2016 - 2019. They could have sprinkled in some pitchers and still draft Adell. For example, in 2016 MLB draft, Eppler took the hitter Matt Thaiss, knowing he won't be a catcher at the MLB level, at pick 16. If Eppler wanted a more advanced pitcher to get to the MLB level sooner, then college RHP Justin Dunn. That's the same Dunn that the Mariners' GM Dipoto traded for in Dec of 2018. Two years later, Dunn is looking like an MLB mainstay this past year. The Angels could have had Dunn available to the Angels this year, looking good for the Angels future with Canning's ascension.

As the trade deadline neared, Adell was often in theoretical trades for a starting pitcher. Do we still need to trade away Adell this winter? I dunno.

Starters going into next season
Bundy
Canning
Heaney
Barria
XXX
Ohtani​

We have a top-3 with Bundy, Canning, and Heaney. Do the Angels need an ace or #3-6 guy(s)? If we need an ace, then we trade away Adell because we can't afford an ace with Arte not willing to go over the luxury tax with a FA ace. Then we're looking for a young pitcher that's cost controlled. If we need #3-6 type pitchers, then we can keep Adell. We do have some #3-6 guys in Sandoval and Andriese. 2020 1st rd pick Detmers is still years away.

If we look at our pitching ERA, then we notice our bullpen was beyond terrible. And that's where I'd like the Angels to address this off-season. We do have some positional prospects besides Adell we can dangle such as Ward and Walsh in case we don't want to get into a bidding war for relief pitchers and a closer.

Pitchers who may jump back to form:
Starting pitcher Ohtani (age 26... 1st year return from TJS)
Starting pitcher Suarez (age 22)
Relief pitcher Middleton (age 27)
Relief pitcher Robles (age 30)​

These pitchers had a good track record before this year. Both Ohtani and Middleton had injuries last season that ended their season. Suarez had injury problems this season.

The Angels have a powerful offense (despite Upton's massive drought this year), but that pitching group needs addressing. I think we got an ace with Bundy and the possibility of Ohtani returning to form. Heaney looks to be a very good #2. We need more starting pitching depth, but our dire need is at improving our relief pitchers.

We don't need our pitching to hold under 700 runs allowed because our runs scored have been at least 769 runs scored for the past two seasons. We just need to reduce the runs allowed from 860's to somewhere between 710 - 725 runs allowed. How can we drop 140 runs allowed? It looks daunting, but over 162 games, that's 0.83 runs allowed per game that the Angels need to find.

I'm gonna try to think out of the box on this and say that we might need to sign a top-end catcher this offseason. We may not re-sign SS Simmons, thereby opening up $15 mil. The projected AAV for catcher TJ Realmuto is $18 mil. Realmuto and Stassi can give our pitchers more confidence with their pitch framing, where TJ saved 3 runs and Stassi 1 run as well as both having over 50% called strike rates. We can slide Fletcher to be the full time SS, which does leave an opening at 2B. Prospect Jahmai Jones will be thrusted into the lineup at 2B. (Both guys drafted in 2015, Dipoto.)

Arte will love this signing because TJ can hit, but I like his pitch framing aspect far more beneficial for our pitching staff. That's an indirect way of improving pitching. We need better relief pitchers and some luck with health issues for Ohtani, Suarez, and Middleton.

Wow. We really did have some back luck due to health and our pitching staff. Then again, Eppler never really tried to address the pitching core enough because we don't have talent on the horizon to weather the storm. Comparing this situation with the Ducks, the Ducks have talent coming, but they're still too young. So there's that.
 

Hockey Duckie

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::: raising shoulders :::

Read similar praises for Eppler before. Eppler did scout Ohtani. So there's that similarity as well.

I do like the hire, but he's still facing the same obstacle the previous GMs had with Arte. Let's hope we focus more on pitching talent that we don't have to go dumpster diving after like we did under Eppler year after year.
 

MMC

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Best thing about this is he won't be as adverse to trading Eppler prospects since he didn't acquire them and won't be as attached. I was so sick of Eppler never playing to win because he was too scared to take any type of risk, ever. Wouldn't trade any prospects because he didn't think it was worth the risk. Wouldn't give any free agent what they wanted because he didn't think it was worth the risk. It became obvious to me over 2 years ago that we would never go anywhere with him leading the organization because he simply wasn't capable of pulling off the moves the team needed to make to make progress. I imagine Minasian won't be nearly as apprehensive, which I'm looking forward to.
 

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