Linden & Goodenow could lose support

[Icey]

I would hope the Jagrs, Guerins and the like aren't dipping in. The PA must have a policy on how much the haves and have nots receive. Maybe it's like the owners' warchest where you get it only if you ask for it.

Yes they only get it if they ask for it, but they paid into this fund. Every month when they are paid money is deducted from the their checks to go into funds like this. So a player like Guerin or Modano or Sakic or Messier who have been PAYING into this fund for years have every right to withdrawl from it.

 

[Icey]

How many players have made over 30 million in their careers? Its a small number of todays active players . Keep spouting your nonsense.

You don't need to be making $30M to be living well during this lockout? And I did a quick little search off the top of my head

Modano $58,466,400
Guerin 32, 159,536
Sakic $68,857,973
Belfour $44,932,000
Sundin $54,787,526
Hull $53,741,000
Nolan $35, 150,500
Palffy $32, 760,000
Pronger $48, 175,000
Allison $30, 200,000


Of course then there are the ones who've made over $10M and are probably just scrapping by right?

Theodore $14,619,968
Iginla $20,025,000
Arnott $21,578,200
Thorton $13,825,000
Doan $12,160,000
Lehtinen $14,700,000
Bure (Val) $13,765,325
Hatcher $29, 865,000
Naslund $20,551,000
Salo $16,375,000
Numminen $29,378,146
Sullivan $12,025,000
Therien $13,525,000
Amonte $29,188,754
Peca $15,676,273
Barnes $12,512,161
Kovalev $24,825,000
Carney $12,629,000
Prospal $11,475,000
Nieuwendyk $29,545,317
Marchant $18,899,601

There are many more, but those are the ones I pulled up in 5 minutes, and as you can see there are more than a "small fraction" of players who have this kind of money.

But remember..... they make enough money in one year that you could live off for the rest of your life, so why shouldn't they be able to?????

Go ahead and think its nonscense, but in two or three years when these players are still locked out and there is still no NHL hockey many more of them will have no problem paying their bills. Plus of course I am not counting the $5-10,000 a month they can draw from the union fund.

Point is the players have enough money to also go without working and maybe they don't have any money coming in, but they still can live for a very long time, very comfortably on this kind of money.

So in two or three years when there is still no hockey and the courts won't issue an impasse, who wins then? How do the owners win then?

Problem is anyone who isn't in bed with the owners is just spewing nonscense in your opinion when in reality its just a difference of opinion. Its too bad you can't comprehend that concept. Its really quite simple.

 

[EricBowser]

after the first lockout, 154 players never returned to the game. If the lockout cancels this season, I would expect the same numbers and if next season is wiped out too, you can expect half the PA to be in trouble due to a variety of things.

A lockout of 1+ seasons cuts out the aging fat on the roster and payroll. Some guys are too old to return like Yzerman & Messier, some like Forsberg don't want to come back to play, some like Linden will be blacklisted, and some will lose their jobs because they are third and fourth liner pluggers being replaced by skilled youngsters with a future towards the new hockey style.

 

[Lil' Jimmy Norton*]

You don't need to be making $30M to be living well during this lockout? And I did a quick little search off the top of my head

Modano $58,466,400
Guerin 32, 159,536
Sakic $68,857,973
Belfour $44,932,000
Sundin $54,787,526
Hull $53,741,000
Nolan $35, 150,500
Palffy $32, 760,000
Pronger $48, 175,000
Allison $30, 200,000


Of course then there are the ones who've made over $10M and are probably just scrapping by right?

Theodore $14,619,968
Iginla $20,025,000
Arnott $21,578,200
Thorton $13,825,000
Doan $12,160,000
Lehtinen $14,700,000
Bure (Val) $13,765,325
Hatcher $29, 865,000
Naslund $20,551,000
Salo $16,375,000
Numminen $29,378,146
Sullivan $12,025,000
Therien $13,525,000
Amonte $29,188,754
Peca $15,676,273
Barnes $12,512,161
Kovalev $24,825,000
Carney $12,629,000
Prospal $11,475,000
Nieuwendyk $29,545,317
Marchant $18,899,601

There are many more, but those are the ones I pulled up in 5 minutes, and as you can see there are more than a "small fraction" of players who have this kind of money.

But remember..... they make enough money in one year that you could live off for the rest of your life, so why shouldn't they be able to?????

Go ahead and think its nonscense, but in two or three years when these players are still locked out and there is still no NHL hockey many more of them will have no problem paying their bills. Plus of course I am not counting the $5-10,000 a month they can draw from the union fund.

Point is the players have enough money to also go without working and maybe they don't have any money coming in, but they still can live for a very long time, very comfortably on this kind of money.

So in two or three years when there is still no hockey and the courts won't issue an impasse, who wins then? How do the owners win then?

Problem is anyone who isn't in bed with the owners is just spewing nonscense in your opinion when in reality its just a difference of opinion. Its too bad you can't comprehend that concept. Its really quite simple.

In 2 or 3 years 3/4 of these players will be gone, They have made their money and they aren't shy to let you know about it either. The owners tinker by owning an NHL team, its their fun not their breadwinner thats for sure and they will put this league on hold until there is cost certainty. Now close to 500 players make below the 1.8 million , watch this group because they will be screaming for a settlement by next August without a doubt and they will cross any line to play because they know that its all about time and money. They only have so much time to make the money and going one season is tough and they'll swallow hard, two seasons is not going to happen because it is all about the money !!!!!

 

[vanlady]

Only a fraction of the 700 players have done so.

Get your head out of the clouds and back into reality.

Probably only 20% of the players in the NHL make over 1.8 million, thus 5 - 10 million over 4 or 5 years.

But Matt Cooke whose salary is only 450K over 3 years... and there are many more like him...

Matt Cooke makes 750,000

http://www.nhlpa.com/WebStats/PlayerSearchV2.asp?Surname=C

 

[Biggest Canuck Fan]

Matt Cooke makes 750,000

http://www.nhlpa.com/WebStats/PlayerSearchV2.asp?Surname=C

Still the point remains true... there are more players who would really be unaffected by a Salary Cap than those that are.

 

[SENSible1*]

What proposal???

Just more amorphous "concepts" from the NHL.

When the NHL makes a substantive detailed proposal then there may be something to put to a vote.

They will, they're just letting them sweat a little longer.

Cost certainty here we come.

 

[Icey]

Still the point remains true... there are more players who would really be unaffected by a Salary Cap than those that are.

Except a salary cap is not what was being discussed. What was being discussed was if these players had enough money to sit out another season.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Just how big was the player's war chest? Paying 750 players $10,000 would cost 7.5M a month...or for the 4 months missed so far, 30M. And that only counts the 4 months missed so far....

The NHLPA has significant revenue streams that Goodenow secured back in 1992 when the players went on strike. The main issue was the players securing the right to control and market their own images.

Wayne Gretzky led the fight for the players on the trading card issue and went toe to toe with John Ziegler.

The NHLPA has since substantially expanded the marketing of the players' products as you can see at the NHLPA website. Goodenow has overseen a massive increase in revenues for the NHLPA by employing very astute marketing people.

 

[Wetcoaster]

They will, they're just letting them sweat a little longer.

Cost certainty here we come.

Niklas Lidstrom does not think the NHL proposal was worth a vote.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/wings/0502/05/wings-80448.htm

"If there is a good enough offer I think it should, but right now it isn't a good enough offer to place a vote on," Lidstrom said. "I trust our committee, the players involved and the guys that are negotiating for us."

 

[CarlRacki]

You don't need to be making $30M to be living well during this lockout? And I did a quick little search off the top of my head

Modano $58,466,400
Guerin 32, 159,536
Sakic $68,857,973
Belfour $44,932,000
Sundin $54,787,526
Hull $53,741,000
Nolan $35, 150,500
Palffy $32, 760,000
Pronger $48, 175,000
Allison $30, 200,000


Of course then there are the ones who've made over $10M and are probably just scrapping by right?

Theodore $14,619,968
Iginla $20,025,000
Arnott $21,578,200
Thorton $13,825,000
Doan $12,160,000
Lehtinen $14,700,000
Bure (Val) $13,765,325
Hatcher $29, 865,000
Naslund $20,551,000
Salo $16,375,000
Numminen $29,378,146
Sullivan $12,025,000
Therien $13,525,000
Amonte $29,188,754
Peca $15,676,273
Barnes $12,512,161
Kovalev $24,825,000
Carney $12,629,000
Prospal $11,475,000
Nieuwendyk $29,545,317
Marchant $18,899,601

There are many more, but those are the ones I pulled up in 5 minutes, and as you can see there are more than a "small fraction" of players who have this kind of money.

But remember..... they make enough money in one year that you could live off for the rest of your life, so why shouldn't they be able to?????

Go ahead and think its nonscense, but in two or three years when these players are still locked out and there is still no NHL hockey many more of them will have no problem paying their bills. Plus of course I am not counting the $5-10,000 a month they can draw from the union fund.

Point is the players have enough money to also go without working and maybe they don't have any money coming in, but they still can live for a very long time, very comfortably on this kind of money.

So in two or three years when there is still no hockey and the courts won't issue an impasse, who wins then? How do the owners win then?

Problem is anyone who isn't in bed with the owners is just spewing nonscense in your opinion when in reality its just a difference of opinion. Its too bad you can't comprehend that concept. Its really quite simple.

These are gross salaries, not net. So, first subtract at least five percent from each for agent fees, then cut that number in half (at least) for taxes. Still very big numbers, but not nearly as big as you'd have us believe.

But the larger points are these:
First, the guys you list here are the upper echelon of the league. For every Jarome Iginla, there are three Jeff Shantz. For every Chris Pronger, there are a few Nathan Depmseys. Does the PA not concern itself with those members as well, or just the rich guys? (That's a rhetorical question, the answer is pretty obvious.)

Second, most of these guys will never make significant money again in their lives. Obviously guys like Sakic, Pronger, etc. have made enough that they'll be just fine. But what about the guy who'll make $5 million in his career? He and his family have to live off that for the next 40-50 years. Are you telling me that guy's not hurting by sacrificing a chunk of his career earnings so that Chris Pronger might continue to make $10 million? He may not be hurting today, but I think it's safe to say he'll feel the pinch when he's trying to put his kids through college in a couple decades.

 

[eye]

The NHLPA has significant revenue streams that Goodenow secured back in 1992 when the players went on strike. The main issue was the players securing the right to control and market their own images.

Wayne Gretzky led the fight for the players on the trading card issue and went toe to toe with John Ziegler.

The NHLPA has since substantially expanded the marketing of the players' products as you can see at the NHLPA website. Goodenow has overseen a massive increase in revenues for the NHLPA by employing very astute marketing people.

I doubt fans are buying very much merchandise these days so there war chest will dry up in time.

 

[ScottyBowman]

These are gross salaries, not net. So, first subtract at least five percent from each for agent fees, then cut that number in half (at least) for taxes. Still very big numbers, but not nearly as big as you'd have us believe.

But the larger points are these:
First, the guys you list here are the upper echelon of the league. For every Jarome Iginla, there are three Jeff Shantz. For every Chris Pronger, there are a few Nathan Depmseys. Does the PA not concern itself with those members as well, or just the rich guys? (That's a rhetorical question, the answer is pretty obvious.)

Second, most of these guys will never make significant money again in their lives. Obviously guys like Sakic, Pronger, etc. have made enough that they'll be just fine. But what about the guy who'll make $5 million in his career? He and his family have to live off that for the next 40-50 years. Are you telling me that guy's not hurting by sacrificing a chunk of his career earnings so that Chris Pronger might continue to make $10 million? He may not be hurting today, but I think it's safe to say he'll feel the pinch when he's trying to put his kids through college in a couple decades.

Are you kidding me?? $5 mil and he's going to be hurting. Thats like making $100k for 50 straight years. Some of you seem out of touch with reality.

 

[CarlRacki]

Are you kidding me?? $5 mil and he's going to be hurting. Thats like making $100k for 50 straight years. Some of you seem out of touch with reality.

No, it's not like that at all. It's like making $2.3 million (net) in a very short time frame. Assuming said player is the world's greatest saver and tucks away 3/4 of that, he retires with $1.7 million with which to live the next 40-50 years. Obviously he won't be in the poor house, but he's not going to be living the high life either. And if you take away a year of earnings, that number's going to be significantly less.

 

[ScottyBowman]

No, it's not like that at all. It's like making $2.3 million (net) in a very short time frame. Assuming said player is the world's greatest saver and tucks away 3/4 of that, he retires with $1.7 million with which to live the next 40-50 years. Obviously he won't be in the poor house, but he's not going to be living the high life either. And if you take away a year of earnings, that number's going to be significantly less.

Most players just don't sit at home all day after they retire either. Being a former NHL player can go very far in regards to job opportunities. Many of the guys do hockey camps and other hockey instruction that can net them a nice salary. You'd be surprised how many former players you never heard of charge $50 an hour or more per student to teach hockey.

 

[Icey]

And there are many CURRENT NHL players who also have businesses they run on the side WHILE they are playing in the NHL. To name just a few:

Jamie Langenbrunner owns a restuarant in NJ

Dominik Hasek owns a clothing company

Teppo Numminen together with his brother and sister owns Montreal Sticks


There are many more. Plus like you said these guys just don't sit home and do nothing once they retire.

Its just funny how when they are arguing about overpaid salaries all you hear s that they make more in a year than most of us make in a lifetime story , but now when the table is turned they couldn't possibly live off a mere $1M or $2M for more than 6 months.

 

[alecfromtherock]

What proposal???

Just more amorphous "concepts" from the NHL.

When the NHL makes a substantive detailed proposal then there may be something to put to a vote.

The NHL has made 2 proposals and one counter-proposal, what exactly have the PA offered?

Oh yes that’s right the infamous Dec 9 proposal with a 24% rollback and a 20% luxury tax over $50,000,000. Wow one piss-poor PA offer counts as substantive does it?

Linden is going to have a hard time staying on as president when an entire season is cancelled under his watch.

True only a select few players are speaking out, but even a hairline crack can cause the entire damn to break.

Based on some comments here, a lot of the higher paid players would rather sit out then concede to the NHL salary cap?

 

[London Knights]

More and More players will say something...Its not like all 700 players are interviewed every week. There are definetly cracks in the NHLPA developing.

And I'm sure if you stuck a mic under Illitch's face every day he would eventually start to say stuff negatively about the league's stance too.

Obviously there are going to be cracks as time goes on. If you honestly think that 98% of the league doesn't truly love the game then you are nuts. As much as the money is a perk, you start to miss the game, and some of the players are going to want back.

Funny how Roenick and Peca are the source of this real cracks appearing now though. 5 month ago Roenick might have never ever played again, words from his own mouth, and Peca is the guy who held out from Buffalo to demand more money so I would hardly be looking to either player as my source to demand a deal.

 

[vanlady]

Niklas Lidstrom does not think the NHL proposal was worth a vote.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/wings/0502/05/wings-80448.htm

Neither does Vinny Damphouse

http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/avalanche/article/0,1299,DRMN_39_3489976,00.html

Mattius Ohlund and Curtis Leschyshyn

http://www.canada.com/sports/hockey/canucksstory.html?id=520b5520-4a3d-4e67-a733-13d2d21e7491

 

[SuperUnknown]

Neither does Vinny Damphouse

http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/avalanche/article/0,1299,DRMN_39_3489976,00.html

Not really surprised about Vinny Damphousse. He's got to be one of the weaker guy I've known above the shoulders. But hey, he uses Head and Shoulders, should help him out there.

 

[Epsilon]

Not really surprised about Vinny Damphousse. He's got to be one of the weaker guy I've knowned above the shoulders. But hey, he uses Head and Shoulders, should help him out here.

Oh the IRONY.

 

[vanlady]

I doubt fans are buying very much merchandise these days so there war chest will dry up in time.

Ahhh but people are still buying NHL2005. EA has to pay the NHLPA to licence players on the game.

 

[SuperUnknown]

Oh the IRONY.

heh... it's late and my spelling is a bit off. Not to mention english isn't my first language either... but whatever floats your boat.

P.S.: And I'm sure some people from Quebec will grasp what I was saying anyway.

 

[dedalus]

2 players out of 700+ players is hardly what I would call "major cracking in the ranks". Your looking for cracks when in fact there are none.

Factor in those who've spoken in the past (e.g. Rob Ray) but who were subsequently muscled into silence or recanting. They may not be talking any more, but they've already made known how they feel.

Don't you think there will be owners who will be questioning Bettman on why he couldn't get a deal done?

No and here's why. I have no doubt in my mind that Bettman actually convinced the owners to prepare for a year without hockey. He's been saying it for the last three seasons, and he clearly means it, and I'm pretty certain that he made the owners VERY clear on his intent. (This is part of why he's made sure he only needs eight teams to back him in order to keep this thing alive.)

Mark Brender wrote this in the Jan 25 THN: "According to a source with ties to the union, before the players presented their Dec. 9 offer to Bettman and the ownership negotiating committee, Goodenow predicted to the NHLPA executive committee the owners would negotiate off the players' deal."

In short, Goodenow has apparently been telling his constituency: "Don't worry, it'll be like last time. They'll fold at the end."

He's been proven wrong and the players cannot fail to recognize his failure to see what was really going on. While Bettman saw the terrain and prepared his side for a genuine war, Goodenow soft-sold his people and told them it wouldn't last and that victory was pretty much assured.

Without doubt, Bob Goodenow will face FAR more scrutiny and criticism from his membership than will Bettman simply because he's turned out to be so terribly wrong in his read on the will of the owners.

Consider too that it doesn't really matter. Even if the criticism they received was equal, Bettman has arranged the cards so that he needs very little in the way of support to keep his side in the game, well under a simple majority in fact. If Goodenow's support drops to as little as 75% or so, it's over for him and the NHLPA.

 

[R0CKET]

You don't need to be making $30M to be living well during this lockout? And I did a quick little search off the top of my head

Modano $58,466,400
Guerin 32, 159,536
Sakic $68,857,973
Belfour $44,932,000
Sundin $54,787,526
Hull $53,741,000
Nolan $35, 150,500
Palffy $32, 760,000
Pronger $48, 175,000
Allison $30, 200,000


Of course then there are the ones who've made over $10M and are probably just scrapping by right?

Theodore $14,619,968
Iginla $20,025,000
Arnott $21,578,200
Thorton $13,825,000
Doan $12,160,000
Lehtinen $14,700,000
Bure (Val) $13,765,325
Hatcher $29, 865,000
Naslund $20,551,000
Salo $16,375,000
Numminen $29,378,146
Sullivan $12,025,000
Therien $13,525,000
Amonte $29,188,754
Peca $15,676,273
Barnes $12,512,161
Kovalev $24,825,000
Carney $12,629,000
Prospal $11,475,000
Nieuwendyk $29,545,317
Marchant $18,899,601

There are many more, but those are the ones I pulled up in 5 minutes, and as you can see there are more than a "small fraction" of players who have this kind of money.

But remember..... they make enough money in one year that you could live off for the rest of your life, so why shouldn't they be able to?????

Go ahead and think its nonscense, but in two or three years when these players are still locked out and there is still no NHL hockey many more of them will have no problem paying their bills. Plus of course I am not counting the $5-10,000 a month they can draw from the union fund.

Point is the players have enough money to also go without working and maybe they don't have any money coming in, but they still can live for a very long time, very comfortably on this kind of money.

So in two or three years when there is still no hockey and the courts won't issue an impasse, who wins then? How do the owners win then?

Problem is anyone who isn't in bed with the owners is just spewing nonscense in your opinion when in reality its just a difference of opinion. Its too bad you can't comprehend that concept. Its really quite simple.

This is a great input cuz it shows the arrogance that really lies at the center of the thinking of the PA's Leadership. Which I personnaly don't think is shared by anything close to a majority of its members.

So you say they are capable of high-jacking this sport for 2-3 years if they don't get to add to their extravigant wealth to the amount that they want?

This game is not theirs to hold hostage, they don't OWN the Stanley Cup or the Montreal or Detroit or Totonto Jerseys.

Fans come to see their Team's Jersy hoist the Cup and don't really care nearly as much who it is that's wearing that sweatwer. These highly paid players are a part of the game but not one that can hold it hostage to their egositical needs...nor should they have the ability to.

The players ID'd are the present prime players but in 3 yeares they will mosly all be hanging onto their past reputations and this League's young guns will be putting them to shame. They have a limited shelf life and then they will be discarded like yesterday's leftovers...sorry pal but that's the truth.

IMO - cut those fat pigs lose for good and play these up and coming star players continue the NHL tradition of great hockey. The game wouldn't even miss a beat.

You are wrong, and when these punks have their a$$es handed to them while they see a loss of possibly tens of millions each, they will have the rest of their bitter lives to understand this fact.