Sportsnet: Liljegren among potential available Leaf players

[stepdad gaary]

Well sure, because we all know that people who write for the Canes/Yotes/lightning only do it to make Toronto look good.

How about this:
2017 Mock Draft Dobber Prospects Liljegren #6
DobberProspects 2017 NHL Mock Draft

2017 Mock draft Sportsnet Liljegren #13
2017 NHL Mock Draft: No deficiencies in Nolan Patrick's game - Sportsnet.ca

2017 draft rankings Bobby Mac Liljegren #16
https://www.tsn.ca/mckenzie-s-draft-ranking-top-93-and-honourable-mentions-1.778987

2017 Mock Draft NHL.com Liljegren #8
https://www.nhl.com/news/mike-morreale-second-nhl-mock-draft-
projections-2017/c-289750810

These were all not long before the draft....and still ALL of them had Liljegren going before #17.

you realize none of those even say hes close to top 3 right?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

All I said was that his 18 year old campaign was among the best producing AHL defenseman among 18 years old historically, and that's a fact. This season, he took a much larger role, playing much tougher matchups and on the top pairing with Rosen. Keefe said it was a huge loss to the Marlies when he was out for about 6 weeks.

None of the players you listed played in the AHL as 18 years old either. I never other defenseman were bad nor did I say Liljegren was the best defenseman to ever play in the AHL or in the NHL or in the world.

Keep moving the goal posts all you want and only look at point totals to oversee a players worth. This is great.

You said teenager. I quoted you directly from your post. You are the one that is obviously moving goal posts. If you want to back track on that now, then do it. But you did post this.

Historically, the AHL isn't an easy league to produce in as a teenager and Liljegren has produced among the best.

 

[Liferleafer]

you realize none of those even say hes close to top 3 right?

Well no, i've already shown that before he had Mono...people were projecting him to go as high as 3....problem is, people don't like that on here. But alas....all we here is "Leafs have to give to get!!"...so they make a good young prospect available...and now it's "the Leafs made him available...so he must be a terrible player!!".

 

[SprDaVE]

You said teenager. I quoted you directly from your post. You are the one that is obviously moving goal posts. If you want to back track on that now, then do it. But you did post this.

Here's the actual quote that you originally responded to : "He was one of the better producing 18 year old AHL defenseman in league history."

To produce very well in the AHL has a teenager is very hard. Guys like Brannstrom and Vaakanainen are doing really well. I'm sure they are considered very good prospects with good value just as much as Liljegren, Brannstrom especially. What kind of minutes are they getting? Quality of competition? PK and PP? Minutes? Possession numbers?

 

[stepdad gaary]

Well no, i've already shown that before he had Mono...people were projecting him to go as high as 3....problem is, people don't like that on here.

bro, stop saying "people were projecting him at top 3" lol. You showed 1 blog that said he was top 3 and a bunch of links in the like 8-16 range. i dont even understand what you're saying at this point. That hes underrated or was a steal? or is that he was overrated? because if he was supposed to be a top 3 pick and he just had mono, well i assume the mono is cleared up right? so is he a bust then? you'd want a top 3 pick producing more than he is now right? you'd prob want him producing more than he is in the AHL in the NHL right now

 

[hairylikebear]

All I said was that his 18 year old campaign was among the best producing AHL defenseman among 18 years old historically, and that's a fact. This season, he took a much larger role, playing much tougher matchups and on the top pairing with Rosen. Keefe said it was a huge loss to the Marlies when he was out for about 6 weeks.

None of the players you listed played in the AHL as 18 years old either. Brannstrom and Valimaki were picked before Liljegren. I never said other defenseman were bad nor did I say Liljegren was the best defenseman to ever play in the AHL or in the NHL or in the world or perfect in any way.

Keep moving the goal posts all you want and only look at point totals to oversee a players worth. This is great.

That's only because it's rare for an 18 year old to play in the AHL, mainly because of the NHL-CHL agreement and the fact that it makes no sense for a European player to come over unless they are going to play in the NHL.

As a Stars fan Julius Honka immediately comes to mind because he was in the same situation where he was actually eligible to play in the AHL at 18 and he significantly outproduced Liljegren on a fairly defensive Texas team.

Of course Honka was very highly regarded by Stars fans for a long time after he was drafted and then it slowly dawned on us that he just wasn't ever going to be very good. Liljegren is extemely similar to Honka, in playstyle, in their strengths and weaknesses, and so far in their career trajectory. I acknowledge his talent is impressive, but his risk of failure is high. To me, Sandin is a much better and more valuable prospect.

 

[SprDaVE]

That's only because it's rare for an 18 year old to play in the AHL, mainly because of the NHL-CHL agreement and the fact that it makes no sense for a European player to come over unless they are going to play in the NHL.

As a Stars fan Julius Honka immediately comes to mind because he was in the same situation where he was actually eligible to play in the AHL at 18 and he significantly outproduced Liljegren on a fairly defensive Texas team.

Of course Honka was very highly regarded by Stars fans for a long time after he was drafted and then it slowly dawned on us that he just wasn't ever going to be very good. Liljegren is extemely similar to Honka, in playstyle, in their strengths and weaknesses, and so far in their career trajectory. I acknowledge his talent is impressive, but his risk of failure is high. To me, Sandin is a much better and more valuable prospect.

I mean that's fair in some capacity. That didn't change the fact that Honka at the same age at top notch value, right? Right. You can say the same about most prospects. "Hey X guy plays similar and ended up being crap... so Y guy's value sucks."

Sometimes you get a Honka, sometimes you get a Voynov.

 

[hairylikebear]

I mean that's fair in some capacity. That didn't change the fact that Honka at the same age at top notch value, right? Right.

You would find a lot of Stars fans fighting vehemently to defend his value, but in retrospect it wouldn't surprise me if league scouts and GMs saw a raw player that wasn't correcting his deficiencies.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Here's the actual quote that you originally responded to : "He was one of the better producing 18 year old AHL defenseman in league history."

To produce very well in the AHL has a teenager is very hard. Guys like Brannstrom and Vaakanainen are doing really well. I'm sure they are considered very good prospects with good value just as much as Liljegren.

Your quote was this. Unless you magically edit it. It's clear you said teenager.

Historically, the AHL isn't an easy league to produce in as a teenager and Liljegren has produced among the best.

Sportsnet: - Liljegren among potential available Leaf players

Really if you are going to use semantics on 3 players drafted 15, 16, and 18 from the same draft Liljegren was drafted at 17. Then your case is not a strong one. And your statement of Liljegren producing among the best is factually incorrect.

15th OA - Brannstrom - 30 GP 22 points.
16th OA - Valimaki - Made the 2nd best team currently in the NHL
18th OA - Vaakanainen 12GP 7 points

You are over selling him here, and I am not surprised you are given for the team you cheer for. But other more unemotional hockey observers that follow the draft know why his stock fell. And if he is not showing offensive indicators, then how is he regarded as a better prospect now then when he was drafted?

 

[Liferleafer]

bro, stop saying "people were projecting him at top 3" lol. You showed 1 blog that said he was top 3 and a bunch of links in the like 8-16 range. i dont even understand what you're saying at this point. That hes underrated or was a steal? or is that he was overrated? because if he was supposed to be a top 3 pick and he just had mono, well i assume the mono is cleared up right? so is he a bust then? you'd want a top 3 pick producing more than he is now right? you'd prob want him producing more than he is in the AHL in the NHL right now

Here's a fun one...

1. 
   Who is his comparable? Some believe the 6-foot Swede can become another Drew Doughty, the 2016 Norris Trophy winner.
   How are they similar? Many scouts love Liljegren because of his smooth skating stride, especially when handling the puck out of the zone. Few in the NHL do that better than Doughty. Liljegren has as much or more offensive skill as any D-man in this draft.
   Will he be better? Liljegren saw his stock fall some after a rocky season in Sweden that saw him miss two months with mononucleosis. Doughty went second overall in the 2008 draft, and it's doubtful Liljegren will go that high in Chicago Friday night. But make no mistake, he'll go in the first round to some team and should be in the top 10.
   Liljegren has a big slap shot and should be a good power-play quarterback in the NHL. As good as Doughty? Probably not, but there's a chance.

 

[SprDaVE]

Your quote was this. Unless you magically edit it. It's clear you said teenager. Sportsnet: - Liljegren among potential available Leaf players

Really if you are going to use semantics on 3 players drafted 15, 16, and 18 from the same draft Liljegren was drafted at. Then your case is not a strong one. And your statement of Liljegren producing among the best is factually incorrect.

15th OA - Brannstrom - 30 GP 22 points.
16th OA - Valimaki - Made the 2nd best team currently in the NHL
18th OA - Vaakanainen 12GP 7 points

You are over selling him here, and I am not surprised you are given for the team you cheer for. But other more unemotional hockey observers that follow the draft know why his stock fell. And if he is not showing offensive indicators, then how is he regarded as a better prospect now then when he was drafted?

Unemotional? You? Okay.

Everything I've said is fair and balanced. I'm not making any generalizations nor am I nitpicking a quote to drill home a silly argument, twice I might add. There are many other fantastic defensive prospects with good value, AHL or not, and Liljegren is really up there regardless of how you feel about his draft pedigree and skill set.

I can safely say I've watched him play and I'm very comfortable with the information I have brought up. I won't turn in circles.

 

[SprDaVE]

You would find a lot of Stars fans fighting vehemently to defend his value, but in retrospect it wouldn't surprise me if league scouts and GMs saw a raw player that wasn't correcting his deficiencies.

We'll see in 5 years, in retrospect, how good or bad Liljegren actually is I guess?

 

[patriotfan]

Looks like it's going to be a rental.

well the guy I really like is petro but the cost is going to be high, I don't know if its possible

 

[hairylikebear]

We'll see in 5 years, in retrospect, how good or bad Liljegren actually is I guess?

That's not really my point, and I didn't bring up Honka to suggest that Liljegren's value should be any way related to where Honka is now. Your rhetoric makes it sounds like Liljegren had some kind of transcendent AHL rookie year, and that's misleading because of the complications with being 18 and trying to play in the AHL for most NHL prospects.

 

[shortfuze]

It's never a good idea to trade 1st rd picks. So for the Leafs to make Liljegren available, it tells you that he has been passed by Sandin on their depth chart. And given their need for a right handed D man, even more a tell I would say. Ideally I agree perhaps 3 years of AHL is the time you know what you are getting in a player. If a player does not pan out, the upside you are selling is no longer as valuable as say right now. This is the only thing to consider. Sort of like what happened to Koekkoek with you guys.

how does sandin becoming the top prospect make liljegren available? no one even knows if sandin will make the nhl.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Unemotional? You? Okay.

Everything I've said is fair and balanced. I'm not making any generalizations nor am I nitpicking a quote to drill home a silly argument, twice I might add. There are many other fantastic defensive prospects with good value, AHL or not, and Liljegren is really up there regardless of how you feel about his draft pedigree and skill set.

I can safely say I've watched him play and I'm very comfortable with the information I have brought up. I won't turn in circles.

Well maybe you can be more precise if you want to nitpick teenagers which you very well know you wrote, and then said you wrote/meant 18 year olds.

I would say being from the same draft picks apart is the more prudent point. But sure, any slight of hand to build up Liljegren. I would say Brannstrom and Valimaki have made a good case why they were picked ahead of Liljegren right now.

 

[Liferleafer]

Your quote was this. Unless you magically edit it. It's clear you said teenager. Sportsnet: - Liljegren among potential available Leaf players

Really if you are going to use semantics on 3 players drafted 15, 16, and 18 from the same draft Liljegren was drafted at 17. Then your case is not a strong one. And your statement of Liljegren producing among the best is factually incorrect.

15th OA - Brannstrom - 30 GP 22 points.
16th OA - Valimaki - Made the 2nd best team currently in the NHL
18th OA - Vaakanainen 12GP 7 points

You are over selling him here, and I am not surprised you are given for the team you cheer for. But other more unemotional hockey observers that follow the draft know why his stock fell. And if he is not showing offensive indicators, then how is he regarded as a better prospect now then when he was drafted?

And you continually post all things negative...not surprising considering the team you used to cheer for...but now don't.

 

[SprDaVE]

That's not really my point, and I didn't bring up Honka to suggest that Liljegren's value should be any way related to where Honka is now. You're rhetoric makes it sounds like Liljegren had some kind of transcendent AHL rookie year, and that's misleading because of the complications with being 18 and trying to play in the AHL for most NHL prospects.

Production is better than not but I agree it doesn't mean literally everything of future progression to take the next step. Not only his is point totals pretty good but his overall puck possession numbers appear to be very good. He took the next step in terms of being able to play soft minutes in the AHL to pretty hard minutes from 18 to 19 years old. Dubas mentioned he was likely going to get a call up had he not gotten injured in December.

He's part of a good development program so we'll see how he develops further.

 

[4thline]

He took the next step in terms of being able to play soft minutes in the AHL to pretty hard minutes from 18 to 19 years old. Dubas mentioned he was likely going to get a call up had he not gotten injured in December.

None of that matters to titans of intellect like Interactif.

Kypreos speculated that he may be available for high end RHD (which are "very very expensive) -> therefore the Leafs are shopping him 100%, --> therefore Leafs have soured on him --> therefore he is bad

Easy peasy, trumps Dubas' comments.

Then you have to consider how unconscionably stupid it is to take the speculation "They want thing A, thing A is super expensive, they might be willing to pay Thing B" and conclude it means that thing B is of low value

 

[Liferleafer]

Non of that matters to titans of intellect like Interactif.

Kypreos speculated that he may be available -> therefore the Leafs are shopping him 100%, --> therefore Leafs have soured on him --> therefore he is bad

Easy peasy, trumps Dubas' comments.

I agree...Interact...i mean TWS likes to devalue him due to not putting up wordly offense...but totally negates the point that Leafs management stressed he needed work on defense...and he's much improved.

 

[Drytoast]

And you continually post all things negative...not surprising considering the team you used to cheer for...but now don't.

He doesnt answer those kinds of posts fella even though its very apparent he has emotionl motivations whenever he enters a leaf thread

 

[The Podium]

Well maybe you can be more precise if you want to nitpick teenagers which you very well know you wrote, and then said you wrote/meant 18 year olds.

I would say being from the same draft picks apart is the more prudent point. But sure, any slight of hand to build up Liljegren. I would say Brannstrom and Valimaki have made a good case why they were picked ahead of Liljegren right now.

Im waiting for you to respond to this post:

Im referring to his draft + 1 year in the SHL. Nice try though. Teenagers do not produce in mens league very often.

Lillys 17Pts in 44 games was 6th all time U19 in the AHL, and only the 2nd time since 2000. The fact that you use his stat line as a way to criticize him is ridiculous, and pretty ignorant.

 

[Patagonia]

Oh my God...why are people reaching so hard?? You literally said "Liljegren was never considered a top 5 pick"...now it's "early evaluations mean little"? Well when the Hell do you think people evaluate prospects if not before the draft?
As to must not be good because the Leafs are moving him"...Ya, Forsberg sucks....Seguin sucks....Hamilton sucks....Hall sucks. Seriously, what the **** are you talking about? Teams move good young pieces all the time for pieces to help them win now.

Trying to understand your thought process???

Top 3–>Drafted 17–>
Offence—>Defence—>Tradable—>WTF?

I think you’re blind in your opinions.

You can’t even explain why he’s struggling. Leafs won’t go far without a decent RHD, they could have at least elevate to improve his trade value. He’s headed to bust level if Sandin which is a smaller player and less tools has already passed him.

 

[4thline]

You can’t even explain why he’s struggling.

How do you explain why something that isn't happening is happening?

 

[Liferleafer]

Trying to understand your thought process???

Top 3–>Drafted 17–>
Offence—>Defence—>Tradable—>WTF?

I think you’re blind in your opinions.

You can’t even explain why he’s struggling. Leafs won’t go far without a decent RHD, they could have at least elevate to improve his trade value. He’s headed to bust level if Sandin which is a smaller player and less tools has already passed him.

Umm....because he's not struggling? The minute you say he's heading to bust level shows your intent...because clearly you have no f***ing clue.