Liles or Klesla?

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DarioinDenver

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I frankly don't see the Rafalski comparisons with Liles that others do. If I had to compare him to other current NHL defenders I would say he's more like Niedermayer.
As far as I can tell the Rafalski comparisons come purely by height and perhaps outlet passing. Liles has doesn't really have the Rafalski body type except in the height department.

Liles as far as I can tell is really a hugh anomoly among modern day defensemen. He's shorter with a smaller build (He's built like a slightly taller St. Louis). He's basically a defenseman with forward size and skill set that's always played defense.

His skating is the best among all Avalanche defensemen, and that includes Foote. His transitional skating, speed and skating motion are exceptional. A reason he gets away with playing on an NHL blue line considering his size and reach.

His wrist shot and snap shots have very good accuracy. He doesn't produce the velocity of a Blake slap shot but he's the most accurate shooter on the Avalanche blue line. You really don't see defensemen on breakaways all that much but Liles did more than a few times in rookie/training camp and he could pick top corner both on the forehand and backhand with regularity (and velocity).

He's a heads up skater with great puck control, a reason he's avoided the big hit and how he's quarterbacked the powerplay.

Liles makes up for his size in the defensive zone several ways. His skating puts him ahead of opposing forward skating lanes more often than not. His transitional backwards skating and positioning complement a refined poke check that gives forwards issues either dancing around him or trying to bulldog him to the front of the net. Liles has good positioning. Liles uses some ungodly hollow on his skate for work in the corners. I've seen Liles time and again this year pin large forwards along the glass. Granted, he's no Foote or Bourque that can pich a guy off the glass, gain control of the puck and make the break out pass all in four seconds. But I did watch him actually pull a David vs. Goliath against Laraque by sealing him against the boards until help arrived to get the loose puck on the boards. Liles just gets on his skate angles and uses some good leverage to accomplish this.

Like I said, I don't know of a modern day NHL defensemen that's of Lile's mold. He is for all intense and purpose playing out of position. But he's managed to prove a lot of people wrong, from college and through rookie/training camp.

I can't really comment on Klesla because I haven't watched nor followed him closely enough. But I'd hazard a guess that Liles will garner a lot more attention the longer he's in the NHL. Things are still early but I'm pretty exited to see an NHL player like Liles make some noise. Especially in the size obsessed NHL of recent years.
 
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DarioinDenver

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db23 said:
Liles is being used as a powerplay specialist on a very deep team that can afford to use him selectively. But his size dooms him to be a fringe defender, always just a step away from the AHL. Klesla is one of the top 10 defencemen in the game under 25.

With all due respect have you even watched Liles? Most are in agreement that Klesla has the better future but your assessment of Lile's skill set is way off base.
 

db23

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DarioinDenver said:
With all due respect have you even watched Liles? Most are in agreement that Klesla has the better future but your assessment of Lile's skill set is way off base.

Liles is a smaller version of Dan Boyle. Look at Boyle's record. He did all of the same things in the CCHA, then bounced back and forth between the AHL and NHL for a few years before sticking. I would be willing to bet money that the same thing happens to Liles. On the other hand, Klesla will just get better and better. At the age Rusty is now, Liles was a junior at MSU.
 

DarioinDenver

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db23 said:
Liles is a smaller version of Dan Boyle. Look at Boyle's record. He did all of the same things in the CCHA, then bounced back and forth between the AHL and NHL for a few years before sticking. I would be willing to bet money that the same thing happens to Liles. On the other hand, Klesla will just get better and better. At the age Rusty is now, Liles was a junior at MSU.

Liles ATOI is 16:02. Only 10 of his 27 points have been on the power play. Please explain to me how that's fringe contributions on the powerplay.

You're drawing conclusions based on a totally different player. I asked if you've even watched Liles.

I can admit I'm not versed enough on Klesla's game to draw any conclusions. However, I can easily look up a high drafted large blue liner that went bust with relative ease.
 

db23

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DarioinDenver said:
Liles ATOI is 16:02. Only 10 of his 27 points have been on the power play. Please explain to me how that's fringe contributions on the powerplay.

You're drawing conclusions based on a totally different player. I asked if you've even watched Liles.

I can admit I'm not versed enough on Klesla's game to draw any conclusions. However, I can easily look up a high drafted large blue liner that went bust with relative ease.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I think what Liles has done is great. Same with Dan Boyle. But, unfortunately, size does matter. There are a lot of smallish defencemen, particularly out of the U.S. college ranks who put up good numbers as pros, but still have a tenuous existence in the NHL. 16 minutes per game puts him on the fringe, like it or not. That is usually 7th defenceman minutes. When an injured player returns, or if a trade is made, Liles is on the bubble.
 

Flames Draft Watcher

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db23 said:
Hey, don't get me wrong, I think what Liles has done is great. Same with Dan Boyle. But, unfortunately, size does matter. There are a lot of smallish defencemen, particularly out of the U.S. college ranks who put up good numbers as pros, but still have a tenuous existence in the NHL. 16 minutes per game puts him on the fringe, like it or not. That is usually 7th defenceman minutes. When an injured player returns, or if a trade is made, Liles is on the bubble.

Have you seen much of him play? Live?

He's been very impressive in some of the Flames vs Avs games this season. Very impressed by him.

Fringe and bubble are not words that should be used to describe him.
 

Rabid Ranger

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db23 said:
Hey, don't get me wrong, I think what Liles has done is great. Same with Dan Boyle. But, unfortunately, size does matter. There are a lot of smallish defencemen, particularly out of the U.S. college ranks who put up good numbers as pros, but still have a tenuous existence in the NHL. 16 minutes per game puts him on the fringe, like it or not. That is usually 7th defenceman minutes. When an injured player returns, or if a trade is made, Liles is on the bubble.


What you mentioned has happened, and Liles remains a key part of the Avalanche blueline. Morris was expendable because Liles has performed so well. I don't call that fringe at all.
 

Yayo

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db23 said:
Liles is a smaller version of Dan Boyle. Look at Boyle's record. He did all of the same things in the CCHA, then bounced back and forth between the AHL and NHL for a few years before sticking. I would be willing to bet money that the same thing happens to Liles. On the other hand, Klesla will just get better and better. At the age Rusty is now, Liles was a junior at MSU.

Did Boyle have a 29-point rookie season?
 

Yayo

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db23 said:
Hey, don't get me wrong, I think what Liles has done is great. Same with Dan Boyle. But, unfortunately, size does matter. There are a lot of smallish defencemen, particularly out of the U.S. college ranks who put up good numbers as pros, but still have a tenuous existence in the NHL. 16 minutes per game puts him on the fringe, like it or not. That is usually 7th defenceman minutes. When an injured player returns, or if a trade is made, Liles is on the bubble.

Liles is not fringe or on the bubble. He made Martin Skoula expendable. He made Derek Morris expendable. Pierre Lacroix acquired Bob Boughner, Ossi Vaananen and Kurt Sauer before the deadline and Liles has still scored eight points in March so far and played an average of 18:35 a game, including two games with over twenty minutes. Please don't tell me that these are seventh defenseman minutes.
 

db23

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The only time that Klesla and Liles played against each other at the same level previously, was when Liles was with the U18 team and Klesla in the USHL. At that time the U18 played most of their schedule against USHL teams, I beleive. Despite the fact that Klesla was a couple of years younger, playing in a foriegn country for the first time, on different ice by different rules etc., he had about the same points and a lot more PIM than Liles. With no disrespect to Liles, he can never make up the 5 inches, 40 pounds, and 2 year difference. Klesla's offensive skills are at least on par with Liles, plus he has all of the other advantages. There is really no comparison.

As a fan of the Montreal Canadiens, I have watched a few small, skilled defencemen like Stephane Robidas, Francis Bouillon etc. come in and have a strong rookie year then disappear. Perhaps Liles will be the exception, and the game will change enough to favor smaller, quicker, defenders but there is no way that Liles will have a comparable career to Klesla.
 

db23

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Man said:
Did Boyle have a 29-point rookie season?

Last year Jim Fahey came out of the NCAA at the same age and following a similar career as Liles. He was an instant sensation in San Jose, and led all rookie blueliners with 20 points in just half a season of playing time. This year he is definately a "fringe", "bubble" player. Same thing the year before with Jeff Jillson, although Jillson has other attributes that he can fall back on.
 

sveiglar

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db23 said:
The only time that Klesla and Liles played against each other at the same level previously, was when Liles was with the U18 team and Klesla in the USHL. At that time the U18 played most of their schedule against USHL teams, I beleive. Despite the fact that Klesla was a couple of years younger, playing in a foriegn country for the first time, on different ice by different rules etc., he had about the same points and a lot more PIM than Liles. With no disrespect to Liles, he can never make up the 5 inches, 40 pounds, and 2 year difference. Klesla's offensive skills are at least on par with Liles, plus he has all of the other advantages. There is really no comparison.

As a fan of the Montreal Canadiens, I have watched a few small, skilled defencemen like Stephane Robidas, Francis Bouillon etc. come in and have a strong rookie year then disappear. Perhaps Liles will be the exception, and the game will change enough to favor smaller, quicker, defenders but there is no way that Liles will have a comparable career to Klesla.

Those that have expressed opinions on your slight of Liles aren't saying he's better than Klesla (and neither will I long-term), but rather that your view of Liles is, well, curious at best. I see nothing in his game to suggest that he'll be in the AHL in the near future.
 

sveiglar

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http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news?slug=knight-rookielileshasntbeenplayi&prov=knight&type=lgns

An interesting take on Liles from the coaching staff.

--------
"We say he's a young kid, but the poise that he shows in any kind of situation just shows how mature he is as a person and how much he's taken from the leadership that Blakie and Footie have given to him and taught him how to do it. He's relaxed and feels comfortable out there."
--------

Liles has "puck poise"? :eek: :p
 

db23

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sveiglar said:
Those that have expressed opinions on your slight of Liles aren't saying he's better than Klesla (and neither will I long-term), but rather that your view of Liles is, well, curious at best. I see nothing in his game to suggest that he'll be in the AHL in the near future.

I don't think that fans thought that Jim Fahey would be in the AHL this year after his start with the Sharks last year. I doubt that they thought Jeff Jillson would be back in the AHL after his start two years ago. Dennis Seidenberg with the Flyers. I took a look at last year's top rookie defensemen, and of the top 7 scorers, only 2 have progressed this season. Most of the rest have only got into 15 NHL games or so this year.
 

Mizral

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db23 said:
The only time that Klesla and Liles played against each other at the same level previously, was when Liles was with the U18 team and Klesla in the USHL. At that time the U18 played most of their schedule against USHL teams, I beleive. Despite the fact that Klesla was a couple of years younger, playing in a foriegn country for the first time, on different ice by different rules etc., he had about the same points and a lot more PIM than Liles. With no disrespect to Liles, he can never make up the 5 inches, 40 pounds, and 2 year difference. Klesla's offensive skills are at least on par with Liles, plus he has all of the other advantages. There is really no comparison.

As a fan of the Montreal Canadiens, I have watched a few small, skilled defencemen like Stephane Robidas, Francis Bouillon etc. come in and have a strong rookie year then disappear. Perhaps Liles will be the exception, and the game will change enough to favor smaller, quicker, defenders but there is no way that Liles will have a comparable career to Klesla.

Using that same logic, I could argue that Klesla will never be very good 'cause look what happened to Aki Berg and Andreas Eriksson.

It's silly.

To the person who said Klesla's offensive skills match Liles - honestly, get your head out of the stats sheets and try watching a game or two. Liles is making plays that Klesla couldn't even dream of making. Klesla's offense hasn't transfered over to the NHL (like many other players), whereas Liles has .. in spades.

I would also suggest that Liles has proven more than Fahey did last year (and I still like Fahey too, he'll be back in the NHL before long). In fact, Liles is probobly more comparable with Jordan Leopold on the Flames, another NCAA defenseman with great offensive upside. To be honest, between Leopold and Liles, I dunno who I'd take, they are both really good.
 

db23

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Mizral said:
I'll take Liles. I've never been impressed with Klesla. In fact, I don't even think he'll be a fraction of the player Liles can be.

That is ludicrous.
 

db23

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Flames Draft Watcher said:
More or less ludicrous than calling Liles a fringe or bubble player?

I made a point of watching Liles tonight in the Avs/Habs game. The Montreal forwards threw him around like a Nerf ball. Even Saku Koivu. If he gets manhandled in his own zone like that against Montreal, what will happen against the league's bigger teams? He was a huge defensive liability out there tonight, even with Rob Blake covering for him.

On the other hand, Mike Komisarek...... :yo:
 

DarioinDenver

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db23 said:
I made a point of watching Liles tonight in the Avs/Habs game. The Montreal forwards threw him around like a Nerf ball. Even Saku Koivu. If he gets manhandled in his own zone like that against Montreal, what will happen against the league's bigger teams? He was a huge defensive liability out there tonight, even with Rob Blake covering for him.

On the other hand, Mike Komisarek...... :yo:

Oh please. You mean when he went down because he got punched in the face? You don't need to strengthen your position on Klesla by overexagerrating you critism of Liles.
 

db23

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DarioinDenver said:
Oh please. You mean when he went down because he got punched in the face? You don't need to strengthen your position on Klesla by overexagerrating you critism of Liles.

I'm not exagerrating. Someone accused me of typecasting Liles without having watched him play enough. This is just one game, but trust me, the Hab forwards went over him, around him, and through him, all night long. On the other hand, he created some good offensive moments. Which brings it all back to what I said in the first place. Montreal is not a particularly big or physical team, and this isn't the playoffs. My bet is that Liles does not play a regular shift in the playoffs.
 
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