Lightning, other Tampa Bay pro franchises pay to have Confederate statue removed

[Stephen]

It's quite admirable. Vinik's investment in Tampa obviously has larger civic vision beyond pro sports...

 

[These Are The Days]

From a human rights and civil standpoint I know disagreeing with the removal of a Confederate statue would be little different than if an old monument to Hitler were removed from town square in Berlin. A lot of bad stuff happened with those soliders. You can't just throw up your hands and say, "Well it's history!!" as if to justify to keep it.

However when it comes to the American Civil War there's a truth in that not every Confederate solider was bad. And not even all of them were slave owners. Whenever I saw that statue (as I have many times) it always served as a reminder to me about mistakes of the past made by not just the state of Florida, but the USA as a whole. A lot of people died in that war for reasons we do not understand nowadays.

We've since moved on from those dark days. Thankfully there's no more Jim Crow, slavery etc. But if you look upon that statue now and emotions stir then I think to a degree the monument is serving a different purpose. It allows you to never... EVER forget no matter what kind of reaction it gives a person.

It's a skewed point of view that I have but for it is for those reasons I had no problem with it being there and would not have had any problem with it staying. Because there's also truth in that many Confederate soldiers were slave owners, they elected unrepentant fire eaters who openly spoke of sececeding from the Union and after the war was over, used fear, intimidation and violence to keep things their way for almost another 100 years into the 1960's. But if they feel like the message is clear enough then they might as well take the statue down. People have not forgotten about that at all but we seldom ever think about such things due to the freedoms we have now. A nice punch in the face wakes a lot of people up and we often forget what it feels like. I would never want people to forget the atrocities of the past because Lord knows humans constantly repeat their mistakes.

It's not like we need an extra statue to remind us. But there are people like myself who often forget about what happened in the state that I'm so proud to call my home. I almost never think about the civil war and every time I saw that statue I'd say "Damn man... we messed up bad and this is how I feel as a white man. What would a black man or woman think seeing this? I imagine it is different. Hopefully they think to themselves about staying strong and this is a reminder to them to never give up. But perhaps not. They must feel shame, bitterness and contempt."

But on a personal note when I go to Tampa I am far... FAR more offended by how many people I see sleeping under a bridge and I wonder about each person's story and I feel powerless to help them and wonder what is being done to help them now.

 

[Killion]

It's going to a private cemetary where it makes more sense. It's not being destroyed. Putting something that controversial in front of what's supposed to be a neutral courthouse just sends the wrong message.

That would be the most appropriate place for it, absolutely.

I can understand why the Lightning are involved. Vinik is trying to remake downtown in his image and attract the sort of people who aren't exactly enthused about Confederate monuments.

The Bucs have a lot of black athletes and fans so I guess that explains that.

The Rays? I don't know, but they were the first to speak out. They're on the St. Pete side of the bay which tends to skew more liberal so I guess it's good outreach in their case.

Also let's not kid ourselves about why this particular statue was placed there at least:

It certainly wasn't just to recognize a historical event.

I do agree with preserving history though. I don't think these monuments should be destroyed. They just need to be placed in the right context. How can you not feel some bias against you as a person of color entering the courthouse if you have to walk past a statue like that? It's the same thing with the folks wanting to put the Ten Commandments outside of courthouses as well.

Well said. Some monuments do belong in museums (or graveyards). Some deserved & deserve to be destroyed. State Attorney Phillips words in dedicating the statute were not inscribed on the monument however theres no question those words forever tarnished it, speaking to a much larger issue, that despite defeat on the battlefield the War would continue... and of course, it did.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Another factor with a large number of these statues is the time in history they were erected.

The correlation between the construction of these statues and certain civil rights events cannot be ignored, here.

 

[Brodie]

I still remember all the statues I had to cite in my college history classes

 

[Felonious Python]

Idk if you could call it re-writing history. Most of the 'Lost Cause' narrative was developed after Reconstruction.

Ironically this can be seen as an issue of small government (call it "city's rights!"). Why force cities to have monuments glorifying things they don't want glorified? In North Carolina the state legislature has not allowed local governments to have autonomy in this issue and decide for themselves. If the people in Tampa Bay don't want it (I'd guess many there don't), then why have it?

Sell the statues and make some money for the city, or put them in a museum which puts them in the correct historical context. Apologies if this is too off-topic.

Subsidiarity is the term I believe you're looking for. It's not really about the 'big vs small' government thing, but letting the decision be made at the right level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity

 

[Hull and Oates]

Today's youth doesn't go around reading the dedication plaques on statues either, historical monuments are more or less decorations. However they should not be honoring disgucsting human beings who lead armed insurrections against the United States government in the name of being able to own other human beings.

I don't necessarily have a problem with this specific action, but do you think whoever is doing this will stop here? Don't kid yourself. Washington, Jefferson, Madison - America's Founding Fathers- are all next.

 

[Burke the Legend]

I don't necessarily have a problem with this specific action, but do you think whoever is doing this will stop here? Don't kid yourself. Washington, Jefferson, Madison - America's Founding Fathers- are all next.

They've already gone after Sir John A. MacDonald in Canada.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I don't necessarily have a problem with this specific action, but do you think whoever is doing this will stop here? Don't kid yourself. Washington, Jefferson, Madison - America's Founding Fathers- are all next.

Why wouldn't they? The move to take down statues and monuments is based on a specific time in this country's history and deals with a specific context of the country's past. What specifically do Jefferson or Washington or Madison have to do with the Confederacy that would make them to target of the same ire?

 

[Realm]

I just don't understand how it costs $280,000 to move the thing. Wish I was being paid to do it!

 

[Hull and Oates]

Why wouldn't they? The move to take down statues and monuments is based on a specific time in this country's history and deals with a specific context of the country's past. What specifically do Jefferson or Washington or Madison have to do with the Confederacy that would make them to target of the same ire?

They were slaveholders.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Only if you have absolutely no friggin' clue what Orwell believed in, sure.

So Orwell believed in erasure of history. That's an odd take on his writings.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I don't necessarily have a problem with this specific action, but do you think whoever is doing this will stop here? Don't kid yourself. Washington, Jefferson, Madison - America's Founding Fathers- are all next.

Some of the idiots are already calling for it.

We live in interesting times.

 

[Brodie]

It's really amazing how the History of Hockey forum keeps chugging along in spite of the relative lack of statues.

 

[Legionnaire11]

I don't have any issue with relocation of the statues to a museum, battlefield or cemetery, which there are plenty of them around. History is no disappearing just because a statue is being taken off of state/city land.

I do not believe they should be outright destroyed, there is much to learn from these things, and a hands on or visual representation is a far greater teaching tool than just a book. It is important to know the history of the Civil War, which while slavery was a primary factor it was certainly not the only reason that the war was fought and there were many on the CSA side which were not slave owners and probably many who did not believe that slavery was right, while there were probably many on the USA side who didn't feel that slavery was wrong. Lee for example switched sides because he was loyal to his state of Virginia, but also because he supported states rights and one of the rights was for the states to secede. Heck, in hindsight it probably would have been better for the CSA to secede and remain a separate nation, as well as another nation or two to the west. Slavery was on it's way out regardless of the war being fought, the war and the emancipation proclamation only hastened the process. I believe the number of slave owners in the south was only between 7-10%, i'm not saying it was right at all, but there's a tendency for many to believe that every southerner was a slave owner and that it was the only reason the war was fought.

I think that not only should Civil War pieces be preserved and taught, but so should all conflicts. In the US we glorify the Revolution, the Civil War and WWII and the rest don't really get a lot of play. It's important to understand our full past, even the eras and conflicts that don't fit the narrative of the "greatest nation".

Anyway, I'm happy to see the Tampa area team's doing this. Sure there will be some fans who disagree and might even stop supporting the teams, but do you really want those fans representing your team anyway? It's a small thing to do and as long as the individual team's don't get into a habit of making political gestures, I think it's okay.

 

[Kimota]

Why do they keep wanting to erase the past?

 

[BattleBorn]

Try to keep your posts somewhat related to the business aspects of this subject, preferably to the Tampa area sports team's impacts on the situation.

Thank you.

 

[Hoek]

They were slaveholders.

They had other meaningfully good contributions besides that though, unlike the Confederates who are only known for losing really.

 

[Baccus]

I don't necessarily have a problem with this specific action, but do you think whoever is doing this will stop here? Don't kid yourself. Washington, Jefferson, Madison - America's Founding Fathers- are all next.

They were slaveholders.

Some of the idiots are already calling for it.

We live in interesting times.

Conflating the founders of the Country who happened to be slaveholders almost 100 years prior to people who fought to maintain slavery is dishonest on every level. They are two completely different things. The false equivalency is pathetic. People call for lots of things, that doesn't mean it happens or that most would ever take them seriously.

Considering the posted declaration that went along with this statue when it went up, it would be ridiculous if businesses didn't support it's removal.

 

[Acesolid]

Jeez, why is this post even allowed on Hfboards? Has every single American so lost their minds because of American Partisan Politics that they cant talk of anything else? Even of Hockey, without trying to turn it into an idiotic partisan political debate?

Whatever, private funding for removing a statue. How is that IN ANY WAY Hockey Business related?

Please, I beg you Mods. Nuke this thread (and others like it) because I wont tolerate seeing another part of the internet I like turn into an endless Republican / Democrat Flame War.

 

[Brodie]

one of the hardest things for me, as a history major, was learning the sculpting required to build statues as that is the only way to relate history to people

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Conflating the founders of the Country who happened to be slaveholders almost 100 years prior to people who fought to maintain slavery is dishonest on every level. They are two completely different things. The false equivalency is pathetic. People call for lots of things, that doesn't mean it happens or that most would ever take them seriously.

Considering the posted declaration that went along with this statue when it went up, it would be ridiculous if businesses didn't support it's removal.

What is going on is nothing but a censorship play. If one can't see the slippery slope in this mass removal of statues at one time and the removal of many websites by monopolistic internet concerns, then one is either blind or an authoritarian/fascist at heart.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

What is going on is nothing but a censorship play. If one can't see the slippery slope in this mass removal of statues at one time and the removal of many websites by monopolistic internet concerns, then one is either blind or an authoritarian/fascist at heart.

Nothing slippery about it. Many, perhaps most, of these edifices were erected at a point in time at which the civil rights moment was at its most prominent. Given that, they probably never should have been erected at all in prominent public places as they were clearly built to antagonize a segment of the population...served as symbols of an oppressive system at the time.

Business-wise, this is obviously a wise move, as the team will be viewed as more thoughtful and considerate of what is becoming an increasingly larger market in the US and hopefully NHL hockey. Engaging them will become more important with each passing year.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Nothing slippery about it. Many, perhaps most, of these edifices were erected at a point in time at which the civil rights moment was at its most prominent. Given that, they probably never should have been erected at all in prominent public places as they were clearly built to antagonize a segment of the population...served as symbols of an oppressive system at the time.

Business-wise, this is obviously a wise move, as the team will be viewed as more thoughtful and considerate of what is becoming an increasingly larger market in the US and hopefully NHL hockey. Engaging them will become more important with each passing year.

The notion that even one person in the black population associated the Tampa Bay Lightning with a Confederate statue is absurd and that their role in removal will positively impact the virtual non existent black support of the NHL is wishful thinking at best.

Engaging "them". Better watch it, bud. The thought police will adjudge you a "hater". LOL

 

[Kimota]

Jeez, why is this post even allowed on Hfboards? Has every single American so lost their minds because of American Partisan Politics that they cant talk of anything else? Even of Hockey, without trying to turn it into an idiotic partisan political debate?

Whatever, private funding for removing a statue. How is that IN ANY WAY Hockey Business related?

Please, I beg you Mods. Nuke this thread (and others like it) because I wont tolerate seeing another part of the internet I like turn into an endless Republican / Democrat Flame War.

Dude, I am so happy I live in Canada. Everything they do is so toxic in America on both sides. Can't we get away from this at least on sport forums so we can entertain ourselves without the negativity.

This would never happen in Canada. Just imagine students going to Quebec city and saying we want these statues removed cause this guy may have done something bad in the past. This could lead to the rise of another separation movement. And we would get extremists on two sides causing havoc. But in Canada these kinds of things gets defused pretty quickly cause we believe in harmony. We're not looking for fights. Feels like in the US people are looking for fights. It's on TV, it's everywhere, even on entertainment shows. Canada is peaceful cause we make an effort to be.