Lidstrom

[Sadekuuro]

He is the most consistently great player I have seen. Lidstrom was so good almost every time out. Like in 95% of our games he was just fantastic. That is really the thing I will always remember most, he dominated the proceedings offensively and defensively almost every night. It wasn't even often crazy stuff, it was just the right play over and over. He basically played the game with analytics that he developed. There is a Swedish book about it, where Lidstrom admits he coached his mind to respond to situations the same way repetitively once he had diagnosed the best outcome. Elite hockey mind, one of the very best of all-time in that department. I think he is the #2 D-man in the history of the game. You could make the argument nobody controlled the game more for a longer period of time which is high praise.

I don't suppose this book has ever been translated into English?

 

[rbartnik]

The special moment was when Fischer crosschecked a player in the face. He did not even got a penalty despite it was just behind Hasek. Nobody saw it. Not the refs, but not the players on the ice or on the bench so intense it was.

He was suspended for it. Not sure I'd call that special.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

I think you're actually underselling Yzerman in the Canucks series. Yzerman was literally playing on one good leg. He played in the Olympics and missed 30 games leading up to the 01-02 playoffs. He then played in each of the games and multiple times you saw him using his stick to stand back up while massively grimacing. When he walked to the rink and off the plane and what not, you'd see him limping terribly. He responded by, as the captain and one of the leading scorers and most important offensive players on the roster, dropping down to block shots, take hits, do whatever was needed for winning time. He held a closed door meeting after game 2 when the wheels could have come off and literally dragged the corpse of the Wings back into the series. His knees were so f***ed up after the run he got an osteotomy and a couple other surgeries and missed 66 games of 02-03. Yzerman literally put the Red Wings on his f***ing back doe.

ESPN.com - NHL 2002 Stanley Cup Championship - On his last leg, Yzerman still leads

Crouching to avoid Pronger's late & high check/cheapshot (who was about to take SY's head off) & sent Chris to the ice resulting in a knee injury (ACL/MCL? iirc) was an added bonus. I laughed so hard at that. The Hockey Gods smiled on Yzerman that day/year (as they should).

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

We used up so much hockey karma with Lidstrom that we were damned to a decade without a top pairing blueliner after he retired.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

We used up so much hockey karma with Lidstrom that we were damned to a decade without a top pairing blueliner after he retired.

On the surface, yes, but it (the using up of good hockey karma) was offset by his ultra-low career pims & gentlemanly play. Compliments of The Perfect Human.

As evidenced here: Lidstrom

Pffttt, Bourque.

 

[MBH]

He was elite of nothing, but a master of everything (if that makes sense). EDIT: except hockey IQ, he had elite IQ and postitioning.
.

Elite shot.
Elite passer - both outlets and in the Ozone.
Elite at the shot/pass.
Elite stick defensively.
Elite at holding the line. Elite at walking the line.

I don't see how Wings fans can let this "elite of nothing" thing stand.

 

[MBH]

The Red Wings didn't win because they beat other teams up.

In 2008, that might have been somewhat true.
Physically, I'd say Stuart and Kronwall was a pretty f***ing physical defensive pairing.

But this team absolutely beat teams up in 1997 and 1998. And to a degree in 2002.

This idea that the Wings couldn't beat teams physically was valid until about March 26, 1997.
And then the Wings went out and beat up the Avs.

 

[MBH]

Crouching to avoid Pronger's late & high check/cheapshot (who was about to take SY's head off) & sent Chris to the ice resulting in a knee injury (ACL/MCL? iirc) was an added bonus. I laughed so hard at that. The Hockey Gods smiled on Yzerman that day/year (as they should).

I watched that at Baker's in Milford. So much cheering when that happened.

 

[Dotter]

Elite shot.
Elite passer - both outlets and in the Ozone.
Elite at the shot/pass.
Elite stick defensively.
Elite at holding the line. Elite at walking the line.

I don't see how Wings fans can let this "elite of nothing" thing stand.

• Weber and Chara have an Elite shot. Lidstrom's shot while well placed and well timed, was not elite like the aforementioned defensemen
• Elite passer.... He wasn't even on the top 10 list.
• Elite stick.... Maybe, but that is more of elite IQ which I touched on in my post.
• Elite at holding the line? He was very good. But I wouldn't call that an elite skill. I think Duncan Keith is better at holding the line based on the eye test. But I doubt there's even a stat for that... so who knows.

You have an opinion. Thanks for sharing... even though it's just an opinion. When I think of Lidstrom, I think of HHOF defenseman that we'll never see again in our lifetime. His hockey IQ and positioning is something special. His attention to detail and his calmness is the core of Lidstrom's DNA. Hence, I why I think he is OCD.

 

[SirKillalot]

Physically, I'd say Stuart and Kronwall was a pretty f***ing physical defensive pairing.

Brad Stuart in my mind was an essential addition to in the end winning that cup.

20 minutes of Kronwall proof here:

 

[MBH]

Brad Stuart in my mind was an essential addition to in the end winning that cup.

20 minutes of Kronwall proof here:

 

[MBH]

• Weber and Chara have an Elite shot. Lidstrom's shot while well placed and well timed, was not elite like the aforementioned defensemen
• Elite passer.... He wasn't even on the top 10 list.
• Elite stick.... Maybe, but that is more of elite IQ which I touched on in my post.
• Elite at holding the line? He was very good. But I wouldn't call that an elite skill. I think Duncan Keith is better at holding the line based on the eye test. But I doubt there's even a stat for that... so who knows.

You have an opinion. Thanks for sharing... even though it's just an opinion. When I think of Lidstrom, I think of HHOF defenseman that we'll never see again in our lifetime. His hockey IQ and positioning is something special. His attention to detail and his calmness is the core of Lidstrom's DNA. Hence, I why I think he is OCD.

You think Chara has more of an elite shot than Lidstrom??
Even though Lidstrom has 30 percent more goals in fewer games?

You're going to point me to a "list" of top 10 passers? One that includes a token defenseman?
How about #6 all time in assists among defensemen despite playing almost exclusively during the modern dead puck era?

OCD? Interesting theory.
But there are some facts getting in the way here.

If Lidstrom, #8 all time in goals and #6 all time in assists (among defense), wasn't an elite shooter and passer, then frankly nobody is.

 

[Bench]

If Lidstrom, #8 all time in goals and #6 all time in assists (among defense), wasn't an elite shooter and passer, then frankly nobody is.

I think he's bumbling through the notion that Lidstrom was never the best at any one quality yet somehow was the best of his era. People actually make this argument about Gretzky fairly often. There were bigger, faster, stronger at basically every aspect of the game. Yet with the puck, and away from the puck, there was nobody with his vision and ability to anticipate the play.

It's an interesting idea, and there's some truth to it, but it ignores all the core fundmentatals (which happen so fast and are hard to spot without careful observation) that guys like Gretzky and Lidstrom are performing at an elite level with greater consistency than their peers. There were dozens of guys doing what Lidstrom did, but rarely with that consistency he showed shift after shift. And thus the joke started that, holy hell, he's kind of perfect.

 

[Dotter]

You think Chara has more of an elite shot than Lidstrom??
Even though Lidstrom has 30 percent more goals in fewer games?

You're going to point me to a "list" of top 10 passers? One that includes a token defenseman?
How about #6 all time in assists among defensemen despite playing almost exclusively during the modern dead puck era?

OCD? Interesting theory.
But there are some facts getting in the way here.

If Lidstrom, #8 all time in goals and #6 all time in assists (among defense), wasn't an elite shooter and passer, then frankly nobody is.

Not taking away any of Lidstrom's goals, but Holmstrom says hi. They were a dynamic duo that contributed to a lot of Lidstrom's goals. Imagine how many MORE goals Lids would have if not for stupid BS "in the crease" calls Holmer had unwarrantedly called against him resulting in goals waived off.

 

[Dotter]

I think he's bumbling through the notion that Lidstrom was never the best at any one quality yet somehow was the best of his era. People actually make this argument about Gretzky fairly often. There were bigger, faster, stronger at basically every aspect of the game. Yet with the puck, and away from the puck, there was nobody with his vision and ability to anticipate the play.

It's an interesting idea, and there's some truth to it, but it ignores all the core fundmentatals (which happen so fast and are hard to spot without careful observation) that guys like Gretzky and Lidstrom are performing at an elite level with greater consistency than their peers. There were dozens of guys doing what Lidstrom did, but rarely with that consistency he showed shift after shift. And thus the joke started that, holy hell, he's kind of perfect.

Bumbling? My message was clear and concise. Maybe it's your reading comprehension.

Yes, Lidstrom (as stated in my prior post) was nicknamed (by Mickey Redmond I presume) "The Perfect Human". Now you're getting it! Rarely made mistakes and was consistent game in, game out.

Bumbling. Lol.

 

[Bench]

Bumbling? My message was clear and concise. Maybe it's your reading comprehension.

Well, you called a 7 time Norris winner elite at nothing.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

You think Chara has more of an elite shot than Lidstrom??
Even though Lidstrom has 30 percent more goals in fewer games?

You're going to point me to a "list" of top 10 passers? One that includes a token defenseman?
How about #6 all time in assists among defensemen despite playing almost exclusively during the modern dead puck era?

OCD? Interesting theory.
But there are some facts getting in the way here.

If Lidstrom, #8 all time in goals and #6 all time in assists (among defense), wasn't an elite shooter and passer, then frankly nobody is.

He's also the only defenceman with more than 1000 points who didn't play in the 80s.

 

[BinCookin]

Lidstrom was a pleasure to watch.

He was Elite at everything that people under appreciate.

Examples that pop into my mind.

1) His Hand Eye Coordination of his stick to puck. I have never seen any player even approach how good Lindstrom was at this.
-He could hold the line on PP's. Shoot the puck 2 feet off the ice, into a players knee hieght... yup that will clear a zone... not against lidstrom. He would just knock it out of the air.

Try to deke or go around Lindstrom for a break away? Nope, his 1 hand on the stick could not only poke check you, but could lift your stick and lightly touch the puck away from you. And he would do this consistently to everyone.

Pass the puck past Lidstrom to another offensive player... nope, he blocks your pass or deflects it.

2) Positioning. He was almost NEVER out of position.. like EVER. So he never had to do any crazy highlight reel play, he just calmly forces you to the outside. Almost all offence just dies next to Lidstrom. The other team has little to no options.

3) IQ. Effects everything from positioning, to shot selection, to passing, to defensive awareness. He was truly likely the greatest defenseman of all time at this.

4) Shot Selection. Did Lidstrom invent shooting the puck wide and getting a kick off the back boards? I think so. He would almost never have his point shot blocked. I mean really. He would either fire it on net to score, fire it near the net for a tip, or if those lanes were both blocked, he would fire it off the boards and have the puck bounce into the slot. In either case, it was a scoring chance. Get puck to Lidstrom, somehow its a scoring chance.


Did we know how Good Lidstrom was? I don't think so. We all knew he was good. People point to Federov and Yzerman as reasons for winning cups. And all the offensive talent we had.
I honestly think Lidstrom is the #1 most important piece on the entire team from 1995 to 2010. This is because other teams simply do not score against Lidstrom. He is a shut down defenseman (who doesn't even hit people) and a great offensive defenseman (who never has to be out of position defensively to create offence).

Lidstrom IMHO was the best player on the Red Wings when Yzerman and Federov were around. But no one appreciates how important he was. Lidstrom didn't have a strong supporting cast... LIDSTROM was the star and the offensive guys were the supporting cast for his dominant game.

I say this because Yzerman and Federov didn't play so well that EVERY game, they were the reason we won... But Lidstrom Did. and Was the reason.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Not an elite shot.



Okay.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Not an elite shot.



Okay.

Exactly.

Saying Lidstrom's shot wasn't elite just because it wasn't a 105mph heater like MacInnis, Chara, Weber or Iafrate is kind of asinine. His shot was hard, accurate and got through traffic and found the net. Lidstrom could hit the end boards and make the puck ricochet in the direction he wanted to a forward he wanted. He could make a slap pass to someone for a quick redirect. Tomas Holmstrom should be thanking Lidstrom for his millions of dollars every day for the rest of his life for making that guy's career.

Saying that Lidstrom's passing wasn't elite despite finishing in the top 10 in defense scoring 15(!!!) times is equally asinine. 16 times he had 40 or more assists. 6 times over 50 or more. 2 times he's had 60. As a defenseman. You don't get that many assists without being an elite passer in the NHL.

Saying Lidstrom wasn't elite at holding the line just shows that whoever said that didn't watch the games close enough. When Lidstrom was on the ice the other team was foolish to try and clear the puck to his side because he could swat it out of the air on a powerplay and hold the line better than anyone I've ever seen in the league.

Just because a player isn't flashy doesn't mean they don't have elite skill.

 

[Dotter]

Not an elite shot.



Okay.

Using that logic, Rafalski had an elite shot. If everyone who shot the puck with accuracy was elite, then it devalues the word elite.

This is elite in my mind.

 

[tabness]

Growing up I played mostly D and had a pretty good stick check and positioning so I was compared to Lidstrom (well in my own mind at least lol ). Like many are saying, I don't think I really fully appreciated Lidstrom's game myself until I was a bit older and more experienced with hockey, as some of his best attributes like his gap control and angles aren't something you easily pick up on until later/through playing.

That being said, Lidstrom was an impressive finesse player aside from the smarts. Others have mentioned his shot in terms of accuracy, selection, and timing, and his hand eye coordination. I'll also mention his skating as something that doesn't get enough credit because he didn't rush the puck as much like other great defensemen of his day. He fit the Wings personnel and system perfectly and played his usual big part, but I could see him going to a less structured team, and having the tools to comfortably play a different sort of game.

I think the new rules post lockout really helped distinguish Lidstrom's game, as there became just less of a premium on some of the physical areas that Lidstrom wasn't known for, but you gotta remember that Lidstrom was helping to change the perception of the effectiveness of non physical defensemen even before the lockout and crackdown on obstruction. Larry Murphy after his earliest years was pretty similar, but in his time, he was never given the due he probably deserved due to not being physical despite his frame.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Using that logic, Rafalski had an elite shot. If everyone who shot the puck with accuracy was elite, then it devalues the word elite.

This is elite in my mind.

That's not elite. That's hard.

Jonathan Ericsson had a 100mph slapshot when he was in Grand Rapids. Dude couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Parayko has a 100+mph slapshot. The dude broke the glass behind the net. It's still not elite. Just hard.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Using that logic, Rafalski had an elite shot. If everyone who shot the puck with accuracy was elite, then it devalues the word elite.

This is elite in my mind.

Rafalski scored an Olympic gold winning goal with a cannon of a slapshot?
Rafalski had 200+ goals from the blueline?
Rafalski was known for his elite shot from the point?

I don't know buddy.

 

[HisNoodliness]

That's not elite. That's hard.

Jonathan Ericsson had a 100mph slapshot when he was in Grand Rapids. Dude couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Parayko has a 100+mph slapshot. The dude broke the glass behind the net. It's still not elite. Just hard.

Yeah I don't think it's right to say that Lidstrom didn't have elite skills. In fact he was pretty much elite in every way, he just wasn't flashy. His shot was elite because of how rarely it got blocked. It was accurate and quick. His go-to wasn't a big booming slapshot, it was a wrister. Effective, elite even, but not flashy.

Physically he was amazing at boxing his guy out. I mean they had to change the rules around hooking because when Lidstrom could pin his stick to the boards as a gate, it became impossible to beat him. He didn't lay people out with bone crunching hits, he denied them space and seperated them from the puck. Effective, elite, not flashy.

As a skater he was so agile. He could walk the line to beat his guy at the point, he could spin off pressure and forwards couldn't maneuver around him. On a 2 on 1 he could space himself so well to deny both the pass and the break. But he wasn't leading end to end rushes or catching guys on breakaways. He wasn't stopping on a dime and hitting full speed in another direction in one stride. Once again, supremely effective but not flashy.

His passing was probably the closest thing to flashy. He could hit guys with backdoor passes or send a breakout through three opponents to give his guy a breakaway. For the most part, he racked up assists with tipped shots, rebounds, and by cycling in the offensive zone. Elite, but generally not flashy.

People have talked about his hand-eye coordination and his ability to pick a puck out of the air was pretty flashy, but it's not something that typically people are looking for. I'll always remember that baseball shot out of the air he bounced off the ice into the top corner. That was pretty flashy.

This is all to say that I think the "Lidstrom didn't have elite skills, just effective ones" and "Lidstrom had elite skills" people are on the same page secretly. It's a semantic thing. Anyone saying Lidstrom lacked elite skills are making the point that his abilities weren't flashy. He was just effective. Some of us need to see a guy dangling through half the team, pulling away with a single stride, sending 100 mph one timers into the top corner or crushing people to say that they're elite handlers, skaters, shooters or physically. Lids wasn't like that. He had flashes but for the most part was doing the quietly correct thing. Instead of relying on inhuman physical talents to make an impossible play happen, Lidstrom made the best possible play everytime. McDavid is elite because he can double his speed in a stride and blow by 90% of the league without hitting his top speed. He can do stuff that's impossible for everyone else. Lidstrom was elite because he didn't have to do something impossible to beat you.