Lidstrom Vs. Shore

[Dennis Bonvie]

Right. I've seen a handful of defensemen of the era who were described as "even harder to get around than Shore."

Considering Lidstrom is basically tied with Devils-era Scott Stevens as the best defensive defenseman I've ever seen*, if Lidstrom's offense can be categorized as close to Shores's (and I'm not convinced of that yet), it seems I almost have to rank Lidstrom ahead of Shore... as crazy as that sounds.

*And it isn't just me obviously, Lidstrom is almost universally considered the best defensive player of his era.

I think it should be noted that Lidstrom has played on a great defensive team throughout his career, probably second only to the team Stevens played for most of his career.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think it should be noted that Lidstrom has played on a great defensive team throughout his career, probably second only to the team Stevens played for most of his career.

True and you have to wonder how much of that is due to the players and due to coaching.

But the thing is that after Konstantinov and Chelios were gone, Lidstrom was the undisputed #1 in Detroit by a good margin, and he continued to be ranked the #1 defensive defenseman in the league, almost universally.

Same thing with Stevens - He was so relied on by the Devils, that in playoff games, if his mark came on the ice, the nearest Devil to the bench(defenseman or forward) would change immediately so Stevens would come on.

Obviously, it certainly helped that these guys were in environments where they really could excel defensively, but that shouldn't take away from what they actually did.

 

[Hardyvan123]

All 4 of them after the last western league folded.

I was going off memory with the hart's thanks for the corrections but my main worry still stands in evaluating shore with guys in today's game.

Not all the best talent was in the NHL for a number of reasons, among them being the strength of community teams all across Canada and the instability of the NHL as well with teams folding, moving ect.

I honestly don't know enough about that era to comment how much that affected the talent and competition during Shore' years but Lidstrom basically has played against the best talent in the world(minus a small number of players in Europe) during his entire career.

This is one of the factors that causes me to "discount" Shore's 4 Harts in the 0 for Lidstrom argument.

While we are on that topic Regal talked about the impact of Lidstrom on the offensive compared to previous Dmen is that the role of the Dman has changed form time to time and from coach to coach as well. It's something that can't be quantified but needs to be considered as well IMO.

 

[Rhiessan71]

The forward pass was allowed in in all 3 zones in 1929-30 and Shore won all 4 of his Harts after that time. (The pass wasn't allowed between zones until 44-45).

Sorry, that's what I meant, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Basically, to get it out of your own zone, you had to either carry it out or simply shoot it out and an opposing player had to touch it first or it was called back.

Either way, it made a D-man's job rather interesting compared to today.

 

[Eisen]

As a general stat, I think it makes a difference to look at peak dominance vs. and entire career (although we'll see how much difference it makes when looking at these two).

Paul Coffey, for instance, was utterly dominant at his peak. But he only has a 17 point lead over the next defenseman during the span of his career (Bourque), and that's because Bourque was able to play well for longer, not because he was anywhere as good offensively at their peaks. If Bourque had been born 10 years earlier or later, Coffey's lead over 2nd place would have been much bigger. They just happened to enter and exit the league at the exact same time.

So by my count, Shore's best scoring finishes over his competitors look like this:

1929: 26%
1935: 26%
1933: 25%
1931: 24%
1928+1932: tied


Lidstrom's best finishes over his competition:

2000: 17%
2006: 12%
2008: 6%
1998: 3%

Unless I'm missing something, it looks like the stats on the front page were wrong. It seems that Lidstrom led defensemen in scoring 4 times, not 5. While Shore did it 6 times instead of 5 (though two were ties).


But at any rate, I think we still have to give it to Shore over Lidstrom offensively. As I say, the career vs. opponents stat is a bit misleading, as it's more a tribute to Lidstrom's longevity than to the fact that he was significantly better than a guy like Gonchar at their peaks. Single-season dominance is the way to go here, especially when dealing with two players with sensational longevity relative to their era. The closest guy to Lidstrom in terms of games played over his career is Niedermayer, who, despite popular belief, was rarely an elite offensive guy compared to his peers. The only other notable guys who come within 400 games of him are Blake and Pronger, and I wouldn't say either of those guys were consistently great offensively. It's probably telling that the guy in second place over the course of Lidstrom's career is still Brian Leetch, with 500 fewer games played. While Shore's career probably overlapped with fewer notable defensemen, he did play most of it against a legitimately great offensive defender in King Clancy.

What I find weird is the utter dominance in Shore's peak but in '32 there was a tie. Right in the middle of being 25% better offensively than anyone else.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Sorry, that's what I meant, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Basically, to get it out of your own zone, you had to either carry it out or simply shoot it out and an opposing player had to touch it first or it was called back.

Either way, it made a D-man's job rather interesting compared to today.

This is a point that has been largely overlooked so far.

During Shore's era, a team's top defenseman was seen in the same way as a quarterback is to a football team today. There's a reason d-men cleaned up in Hart voting. Being able to rush the puck successfully would have been as much a defensive attribute as an offensive one.

 

[Hardyvan123]

What I find weird is the utter dominance in Shore's peak but in '32 there was a tie. Right in the middle of being 25% better offensively than anyone else.

Small sample sizes and lack of secondary assists can account for this, if anything stats shows less of a picture of a players worth in the 30's than in recent times.

 

[arrbez]

What I find weird is the utter dominance in Shore's peak but in '32 there was a tie. Right in the middle of being 25% better offensively than anyone else.

It's just one of those weird things I guess. The guy he tied with was George Owen, who basically had two big years and was out of the league a year later. But it doesn't so much look like someone approached Shore's level, as much as Shore just had an off year. He went from being a consistent 30+ point guy to 22 points that year, and then back up to 30 in his next two full seasons. It looks kinda like Lidstrom's oddly poor 2004 season, where he had the worst offensive showing of his career sandwiched between 3 Norris trophies on either side.

 

[quoipourquoi]

When the Noris was introduced the chance for a d-man to get the Hart was slim to none. Pronger is the exception to the rule. I think the Norris is a good thing because d-men gets less recognition and their skills are harder to measure. Points wins you the Hart.

/Cheers

I don't see Pronger as the exception though. Kelly finished second. Bourque multiple times. Orr won it. Coffey finished first in the split Western Conference vote in 1995. Mark Howe got a nomination. Potvin was a finalist.

He's just never had a single season peak that deserved it, as far as I see. I don't think he's held back, and especially not when it comes to the matter of collecting points.

 

[mbhhofr]

One other thing to take into consideration is that when Shore played, there was no such thing as the slap shot. When a defenseman shot from the blue line, it was always a wrist shot. There was also very little jamming in front of the net, screening the goalie. Shore was also one of the best, if not the best, skater of his time.

 

[nik jr]

2 interesting things i learned about eddie shore today:

--in 1933, NHL teams had agreed to a $7500 salary limit.

in late '33 (early in '34 season), shore held out for more money. shore was widely thought to have been paid around $10000 in '32, so the new salary limit was a big pay cut. shore got $16000 a few seasons before.

penalty for breaking the 7500 salary limit was 10x the excess salary. article says it is unknown how art ross and shore settled the dispute, or what shore's salary is.


--shore was nicknamed mr hockey.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1943-44 Red Line

The forward pass was allowed in in all 3 zones in 1929-30 and Shore won all 4 of his Harts after that time. (The pass wasn't allowed between zones until 44-45).[/QUOTE]

One season earlier 1943-44 when the Red Line was introduced.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The forward pass was allowed in in all 3 zones in 1929-30 and Shore won all 4 of his Harts after that time. (The pass wasn't allowed between zones until 44-45).[/QUOTE]

One season earlier 1943-44 when the Red Line was introduced.

Thanks. Edited for accuracy.

 

[Fredrik_71]

I don't see Pronger as the exception though. Kelly finished second. Bourque multiple times. Orr won it. Coffey finished first in the split Western Conference vote in 1995. Mark Howe got a nomination. Potvin was a finalist.

He's just never had a single season peak that deserved it, as far as I see. I don't think he's held back, and especially not when it comes to the matter of collecting points.

I think he had seasons when he deserved Hart recognition. It applies to d-men every year but as I said its hard to measure a fantastic performance by a d-man. How much is a really good d-man worth and how many who watches the game preferes an Ovechkin goal over a brilliant break by a d-man and a cross-ice pass to a forward. It takes a skilled eye to recognize these things. E.g. Duncan Keith had an excellent season 2009/2010 but no one talked about him in the same sentence as Crosby.

//Cheers