Player Discussion Lias Andersson

[Tawnos]

Also, not every player develops at the same pace.

Zuccarello did not become an NHL regular until the 2013-14 season, when he was 26.

To be fair, he would've been a year earlier had he been on a KHL deal he could've gotten out of.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

To be fair, he would've been a year earlier had he been on a KHL deal he could've gotten out of.

He played in the KHL only because of the lockout.

 

[Tawnos]

He played in the KHL only because of the lockout.

A lot of NHL players played in the KHL because of the lockout. Most of them came back once the season started.

 

[haohmaru]

A lot of NHL players played in the KHL because of the lockout. Most of them came back once the season started.

My KHL McDonagh jersey is proof of that.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

A lot of NHL players played in the KHL because of the lockout. Most of them came back once the season started.

It doesn't change the point I am making though. But okay, let's go with this. Zuccarello was in the AHL until age 24. It takes more time for some prospects to actually make it. Sure, Zuccarello was undrafted and Lias was picked 7th overall but there are other examples as well. Mikko Koivu played 3 seasons in Liiga, after the draft. I have no problem with giving Lias a bit more time to develop.

 

[Tawnos]

It doesn't change the point I am making though. But okay, let's go with this. Zuccarello was in the AHL until age 24. It takes more time for some prospects to actually make it. Sure, Zuccarello was undrafted and Lias was picked 7th overall but there are other examples as well. Mikko Koivu played 3 seasons in Liiga, after the draft. I have no problem with giving Lias a bit more time to develop.

No I agree, it doesn't change the point you're making. And I agree said point, but you know how I like to nitpick.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

No I agree, it doesn't change the point you're making. And I agree said point, but you know how I like to nitpick.

That's why I like you. We have that in common *ahum Finland is not part of Scandinavia*

 

[Captain Monglobster]

The thing that worries me is that he was supposed to be the safe pick, the more nhl ready pick.

 

[Rempe73]

Does it really matter if Lias turns into a 4C long term? You can just sign one in FA for like 1M or less. I'd rather take the guy with higher upside even if he is more likely to not make the league. *In general not specifically referring to Andersson or Puljujarvi

Exactly my point. The Rangers and Rangers fans are so frustrating. Draft and develop middle six forwards, and sign (aging) superstars. I don’t get it. Puljujarvi not only has a decent floor, but has a very high ceiling. LA’s ceiling doesn’t even come close. How could you not make that trade?

 

[haveandare]

Exactly my point. The Rangers and Rangers fans are so frustrating. Draft and develop middle six forwards, and sign (aging) superstars. I don’t get it. Puljujarvi not only has a decent floor, but has a very high ceiling. LA’s ceiling doesn’t even come close. How could you not make that trade?

Because you're saying a guy with 9 points on the year has a decent floor and very high ceiling.

You can think that, but your opinion is an opinion. Nothing he's done at the AHL or NHL level is notably better than Lias.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

The thing that worries me is that he was supposed to be the safe pick, the more nhl ready pick.

The thing that worries me is that this will go down as a statement of the organization when in fact it was Pierre McGuire who said it. Who also made the Jesper Fast comparison based on both of them playing for HV71 in their draft year

 

[Rempe73]

Because you're saying a guy with 9 points on the year has a decent floor and very high ceiling.

You can think that, but your opinion is an opinion. Nothing he's done at the AHL or NHL level is notably better than Lias.

I’ve explained this before, but their overall style of play suggests that Puljujarvi has a higher ceiling. I don’t know how many times I have to say this, but just because someone takes a little longer to develop doesn’t mean the upside isn’t there.

 

[SA16]

My point is that floor doesn't matter. The whole "they took Andersson which allowed them to take a risk on Chytil later" is nonsense. If a player hits his "floor" that's just a replaceable player you can get in FA for a minimum or slightly above contract. It's not a big deal. You need to just go for all guys who can become 1st or 2nd liners since they are the ones who actually move the needle.

 

[haveandare]

I’ve explained this before, but their overall style of play suggests that Puljujarvi has a higher ceiling. I don’t know how many times I have to say this, but just because someone takes a little longer to develop doesn’t mean the upside isn’t there.

How many times until what? Everyone agrees with you? A limitless number of times because that's your opinion and other people are entitled to theirs also.

The numbers are objective and the numbers show that there isn't much separating the two players. Maybe the different styles will end up making a big difference down the line, maybe they won't. You're entitled to your view on it and others are entitled to theirs, too.

 

[Rempe73]

How many times until what? Everyone agrees with you? A limitless number of times because that's your opinion and other people are entitled to theirs also.

The numbers are objective and the numbers show that there isn't much separating the two players. Maybe the different styles will end up making a big difference down the line, maybe they won't. You're entitled to your view on it and others are entitled to theirs, too.

No, because that’s how it works. That’s how prospects work. Obviously, this isn’t an exact science, but most of the time, players predicted to have a low ceiling and a high floor end up in that range, while players predicted to have have a high ceiling and a low floor end up in that range. Of course there are exceptions, but there’s a distinct pattern. Puljujarvi has a high amount of upside due to his style of play. He’s not developing as expected, but the upside is still there. There’s just a higher chance of him busting now. LA does not have much upside, and he’s also struggling. This also increases his chances of becoming a bust, but like Puljujarvi, his upside should remain the same. At least for now. It’s just a smaller chance they reach their ceiling.

 

[Tawnos]

No, because that’s how it works. That’s how prospects work. Obviously, this isn’t an exact science, but most of the time, players predicted to have a low ceiling and a high floor end up in that range, while players predicted to have have a high ceiling and a low floor end up in that range. Of course there are exceptions, but there’s a distinct pattern. Puljujarvi has a high amount of upside due to his style of play. He’s not developing as expected, but the upside is still there. There’s just a higher chance of him busting now. LA does not have much upside, and he’s also struggling. This also increases his chances of becoming a bust, but like Puljujarvi, his upside should remain the same. At least for now. It’s just a smaller chance they reach their ceiling.

I would say that, right now, it's looking like Puljujarvi's ceiling on draft day was more a mirage than a reality. As in, his ability level peaked at 17-18. This honestly isn't all that uncommon for 3-5 overall area picks. There's typically one in that range every year. They're impressive for their age, but their skills don't keep developing. This is the fundamental problem with trying to project out teenagers.

I'm not sure I agree that the upside is still there with him.

In Andersson's case, it looked as if his skills were developing and he's since hit this snag. I'm not sure what to make of him at this moment.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I would say that, right now, it's looking like Puljujarvi's ceiling on draft day was more a mirage than a reality. As in, his ability level peaked at 17-18. This honestly isn't all that uncommon for 3-5 overall area picks. There's typically one in that range every year. They're impressive for their age, but their skills don't keep developing. This is the fundamental problem with trying to project out teenagers.

I'm not sure I agree that the upside is still there with him.

In Andersson's case, it looked as if his skills were developing and he's since hit this snag. I'm not sure what to make of him at this moment.

It amazes me that people can firmly believe Lias is not developing and is slowly turning into a bust, while at the same time still believing in Puljujarvi's ceiling being a reasonable expectation

 

[haohmaru]

I’ve explained this before, but their overall style of play suggests that Puljujarvi has a higher ceiling. I don’t know how many times I have to say this, but just because someone takes a little longer to develop doesn’t mean the upside isn’t there.

Overall style of play? It also makes a difference what style of play you're drafting for. Teams have different needs at different positions that require different skills. The two way center with leadership skills with less scoring potential isn't necessarily less important than the scorer that can't play D. Their "ceilings" are different because what's expected of them is different. Doesn't mean one has more upside than the other. Their values are different.

20 year old centers are a rarity in the NHL for a reason.

 

[Rempe73]

It amazes me that people can firmly believe Lias is not developing and is slowly turning into a bust, while at the same time still believing in Puljujarvi's ceiling being a reasonable expectation

Lias is not a bust yet, but he was never pegged to be a 1st line player. He was said to be the safe, NHL-ready pick by scouts. And he’s not even in the NHL yet. I understand it’s not his fault that he was picked at #7 and pegged to be those things, but that’s what most of us have a problem with. Not really with Lias, just where he was picked. With Puljujarvi, I don’t think many people think there’s a high chance he will reach his ceiling. But there’s still a small chance, albeit much smaller than it used to be. Wouldn’t you rather take a chance on a guy who can possibly become a decent 1st liner/good 2nd liner, than a guy who will most likely end up a middle 6 center? Middle 6 centers are much easier to find in free agency.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Lias is not a bust yet, but he was never pegged to be a 1st line player. He was said to be the safe, NHL-ready pick by scouts. And he’s not even in the NHL yet. I understand it’s not his fault that he was picked at #7 and pegged to be those things, but that’s what most of us have a problem with. Not really with Lias, just where he was picked. With Puljujarvi, I don’t think many people think there’s a high chance he will reach his ceiling. But there’s still a small chance, albeit much smaller than it used to be. Wouldn’t you rather take a chance on a guy who can possibly become a decent 1st liner/good 2nd liner, than a guy who will most likely end up a middle 6 center? Middle 6 centers are much easier to find in free agency.

Lias and Puljujarvi both have the same chance of becoming a 2nd line player in the NHL at this stage.

 

[duhmetreE]

If we'd combine/morph Lias and Pool Party together, we get an elite player

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

If we'd combine/morph Lias and Pool Party together, we get an elite player

 

[Rempe73]

Lias and Puljujarvi both have the same chance of becoming a 2nd line player in the NHL at this stage.

The difference is, Puljujarvi has a higher chance than Lias of becoming more than that. Even though he’ll probably never get there, I still think it’s a risk very much worth taking. Why do Rangers fans seem to value safe prospects more than guys who are high-risk/high-reward? You can get the former easier in FA.

 

[Kakko Schmakko]

Doesn't Wolfpack have only 1 assistant coach? Seems like an odd position to save money on especially for a rebuilding/developing team.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

The difference is, Puljujarvi has a higher chance than Lias of becoming more than that. Even though he’ll probably never get there, I still think it’s a risk very much worth taking. Why do Rangers fans seem to value safe prospects more than guys who are high-risk/high-reward? You can get the former easier in FA.

You keep trying to sell your opinion as fact. The only reason people are still high on Puljujarvi is because they don't watch him as close as they do Lias.