Sure, but even his first victory with the rookie Benetton team in 1986 came with Senna, Prost, Piquet, Mansell all finishing. The following season both of his victories came from the pole so it's not like he was collecting freebies when he won. Later in his career reliability was much less of an issue anyway. Also there aren't many non-champions that have dominated races ten years apart or finished first eight different seasons.
Lewis Hamilton: Will he dethrone Michael Schumacher?
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Paris in Flames
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I like how we're now just discussing Bottas.
Good driver. Great car. Terrific teammate.
Don't know if I'd put him in the top 10 on talent alone.
Actually. No. He's likely in the 7-10 range.
Good driver. Great car. Terrific teammate.
Don't know if I'd put him in the top 10 on talent alone.
Actually. No. He's likely in the 7-10 range.
MXD
Original #4
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You're talking about Hamilton all-time or Bottas in the current field?
Hamilton 7-10 all-time is ... well, a frank answer would lead to a warning/infraction.
Bottas 7-10 in the current F1 field... That seems very right to me.
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Paris in Flames
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I'd rate Fangio as #1 even though were comparing drivers of different era's
It gets a bit more difficult when i start comparing Schumacher, Hamilton and Senna though
I'd probably lean Senna and Schumacher but I may have a bias towards those two because they were in their primes as I was growing up, I don't find Hamilton very likable but that tends to fade after guys have retired from the sport
So I wouldn't be shocked if I feel differently about him after he's finished driving
MXD
Original #4
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Who was the greatest F1 driver?
Of course, this was made after Lewis' 2nd title, so it's not totally up to date, and there's no way that Ricciardo, Bottas, Verstappen miss it, while both Hulkenberg and Perez should be really close. Some things don't pass the smell test, and pure numbers analytics may lead to glitches, like Robserg being really high due to beating Michael who was clearly past-his-prime, or HHF getting ranked really high by absolutely eviscerating a totally demotivated and ancient Damon Hill, and John Watson being ranked 15th by virtue of being really close to Alain Prost and Niki Lauda when teaming them, despite doing so when Prost was just getting started and when Lauda was only coming back.
But this list gets many things right as far as I'm concerned.
Of course, this was made after Lewis' 2nd title, so it's not totally up to date, and there's no way that Ricciardo, Bottas, Verstappen miss it, while both Hulkenberg and Perez should be really close. Some things don't pass the smell test, and pure numbers analytics may lead to glitches, like Robserg being really high due to beating Michael who was clearly past-his-prime, or HHF getting ranked really high by absolutely eviscerating a totally demotivated and ancient Damon Hill, and John Watson being ranked 15th by virtue of being really close to Alain Prost and Niki Lauda when teaming them, despite doing so when Prost was just getting started and when Lauda was only coming back.
But this list gets many things right as far as I'm concerned.
It will be nearly impossible to determine the top driver but someone may really dive into the analytics and make a great case.
Senna was cut short....it would have been so much better to see him and Schu head to head for a few more years. Schu was ridiculously good at hitting key laps at key times. Vettel has been a phenomenal front runner.
I go for how cool you are in the fight and that leaves me at Senna and Lewis....Senna had to battle Prost in his own team, none of these other guys had that. Prost is just a fraction off these mega stars and maybe is right alongside them in his own right.
Until proven otherwise....i'm left with Senna even though he was not perfect either. Hitting Nakajima in Brazil, putting it in the wall at Monaco and taking out Prost in Japan.
Really great debate...Lewis is still piling on and may end up as the greatest of all time.
Senna was cut short....it would have been so much better to see him and Schu head to head for a few more years. Schu was ridiculously good at hitting key laps at key times. Vettel has been a phenomenal front runner.
I go for how cool you are in the fight and that leaves me at Senna and Lewis....Senna had to battle Prost in his own team, none of these other guys had that. Prost is just a fraction off these mega stars and maybe is right alongside them in his own right.
Until proven otherwise....i'm left with Senna even though he was not perfect either. Hitting Nakajima in Brazil, putting it in the wall at Monaco and taking out Prost in Japan.
Really great debate...Lewis is still piling on and may end up as the greatest of all time.
Paris in Flames
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At the end of the day it may be even more convoluted than comparing hockey players from different eras.
MXD
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It is, because teams are intrinsically different in quality, not to mention mechanical DNFs on which the driver has really no bearing on... Except for ONE very specific driver.
MXD
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I think it's on the site I've referred to -- or somewhere else, I can't remember -- but there has been some kind of analysis about mechanical smoothness and what it entails for drivers, and the conclusion is that drivers, with one VERY specific exception, have pretty much zero impact on mechanical DNF's.
The driver being, of course, Alain Prost. And one must remember that Prost started his career with VERY, VERY fragile cars.
MXD
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alko
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Truthfully, I'm not sure Schumacher can be counted up there. Yes, he obliterated the record book. It's hard to argue with 91 wins and 7 world titles. But if you look closer, you'll notice something about 89 of those wins: they came with refueling and tire changes.
His first win (Belgium 1992) was in wet conditions, and as we later learned, that gives him a tremendous advantage. His second win (Portugal 1993) was the only race where he had to pace himself to make his fuel and tires last. From 1994 until 2009, a driver was able to wring every drop of life from the car and pull in for a pit stop.
There was no better at that style of driving than Schumacher. But when it came to preserving tires or fuel, well, that had to have played a role in the fact that he only finished on the podium once during his comeback.
Eh? While race strategies have certainly evolved a whole lot, make of that what you will, refueling was only forbidden between 1984 and 1994. Already Fangio used tactical refueling and tire changes to gain advantage.
What comes to Schumacher's comeback, he was the oldest driver to make it to the podium since Jack Brabham in 1970 and that Fangio drive in 1957.
It's also been banned since 2009. Lewis Hamilton has actually won the last world championship with refueling allowed and six more since the ban. Who knows, if refueling were allowed throughout the course of the sport's history, some might be doubting the greatness of Senna or Prost. Like I said before, when it came to driving the wheels off a car, there were none better than Schumacher, but the fact that he pretty much never had to make a full tank last the entire race makes me question his GOAT status.
And it was even more impressive that his last podium came in his final season. He also drove some dogs of cars (1996 immediately comes to mind.) To me, the best evidence of Schumacher's ability as a driver was how he did with the less-than-stellar cars (putting the Jordan 191 on the grid at Q7 in Spa, scoring six points in the B191, finishing 2nd in the Spanish GP in 1994 while stuck in 5th gear, anything in 1996.)
A lot has been said about how good especially Prost was at managing his car, rightly so, but a part of the truth is also that McLaren was very good at developing new tricks like managing fuel temperature so that their drivers effectively had more fuel than their competitors when refueling was banned.
SoupyFIN
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Worth noting on Senna's case; yes, his career was cut short, but what options would he have had for the remaining years? Frank Williams was notorious for lowballing proven drivers, so I don't think that relationship would've lasted for more than two years. Say Senna (who's btw 36 at this point after the season opener) was looking for a seat in 1996, what realistic options would he have? For him to even consider it, the team would have to be competitive and without a number 1 who can veto the move.
(Williams is not in the conversation, because I'm assuming Frank has refused to pay up)
Ferrari, nope, Schumacher would veto that and I doubt Senna would want to play second fiddle to him anyway.
Benetton, I mean they still finished on the podium, but the writing was on the wall as soon as MSC left and took some technical staff along with him as well. Senna wasn't stupid.
McLaren, they were still rebuilding. The relationship is there, but the car wasn't competitive.
The rest aren't even worth mentioning. I really think Senna would've retired after '95, championship or not in those two years with Williams.
SmoggyTwinkles
Go Leafs Go
I don't either, but not because I don't want to I just don't want to wake up early on my days off to watch it.
Yet, I noticed today that the Monaco Grand Prix is happening this weekend and thought "hmmm that's my favourite F1 race, maybe I'll watch it?"
I then check the standings and see M.Schumacher on there and I'm like "huh weird".
Turns out his son Mick Schumacher is in his first season of F1 for Haas-Ferrari, aged 22, I need to get back into F1 because how can I not root for this kid?
Had no idea.
- Jan 23, 2017
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Not much to follow at Haas for the foreseeable future. Mick is the only reason anyone likes that team.
