OT: Let's talk about movies and TV - Part XXIV

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GoodKiwi

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Fun times sharing an opinion with you, not one sided at all, man.
I didn't disagree with your opinion as much as I did with your entire premise of critiquing the film. That's what you came out and said and that's what I called you out on from the start.

So far, your only counterpoint has been the movie's title, which, in my opinion, is weak. Long before the movie came out there was ample evidence this wasn't going to be as much of an origin story as it was going to be a character study. It is my opinion that Phillips was greatly successful at the latter.

Not everything about the film is a triumph IMO, but when the cameras were on JP's character it always turned into an astonishing piece of cinematography. And, I know, you hinted to that as well.
 

Mrb1p

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Arthur Fleck *is* the Joker, I think that this may be the point.
Artur Fleck can be whoever he wants, but the Joker portrayed is far from anything we've seen in the material provided. Again, not even remotely close to a bad movie, just a bad joker movie. As a movie it hits every mark, as a Joker movie it misses a lot of them. Its not even a critique of the movie or the acting, everything was great.
 

Mrb1p

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I didn't disagree with your opinion as much as I did with your entire premise of critiquing the film. That's what you came out and said and that's what I called you out on from the start.

So far, your only counterpoint has been the movie's title, which, in my opinion, is weak. Long before the movie came out there was ample evidence this wasn't going to be as much of an origin story as it was going to be a character study. It is my opinion that Phillips was greatly successful at the latter.

Not everything about the film is a triumph IMO, but when the cameras were on JP's character it always turned into an astonishing piece of cinematography. And, I know, you hinted to that as well.

My critique is that the Joker was poorly portrayed. This is it, you came out guns blazing because you are emotionally invested in the movie, its pretty clear and now youre trying to backtrack.
 

GoodKiwi

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Artur Fleck can be whoever he wants, but the Joker portrayed is far from anything we've seen in the material provided. Again, not even remotely close to a bad movie, just a bad joker movie. As a movie it hits every mark, as a Joker movie it misses a lot of them. Its not even a critique of the movie or the acting, everything was great.
But the Joker you're referring to was shown for less than a minute and only in the closing scene with the therapist. And yes, that was the Joker we're all thinking of. But every other scene prior we didn't see the character you are telling us the movie misrepresented.

At the very least there was ALWAYS doubt before and that is not the Joker.
 

GoodKiwi

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My favourite scene from Joker after seeing it 3 times now is, no question, the bathroom dance one. The subway chaos could not have possibly been followed by anything more beautiful IMO.

But the scene itself is still mystifying to me and, so far, I only understand its significance as a building block for Arthur on his way to becoming the Joker. The calming effect there is evident (heavy breathing goes away, the careful placement of his feet dancing, etc.), but I wonder if there is more to it.

It is a standout for me for sure.


P.S. I also forgot to mention the outstanding score this film features. It is a major major factor to setting its overall mood.
 

Mrb1p

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But the Joker you're referring to was shown for less than a minute and only in the closing scene with the therapist. And yes, that was the Joker we're all thinking of. But every other scene prior we didn't see the character you are telling us the movie misrepresented.

At the very least there was ALWAYS doubt before and that is not the Joker.

The Joker I'm referring to appears a lot sooner than that. At the very least, he is himself when his two clown-buddies (I forget their names.) see him in his appartment, I'd say he appears even sooner. He's not timid, emotionally fragile or pitiful, at all from that point. When he wears the make-up, he's "Joker" through and through. He even attempts one of his traditional terror attack on the show. He's dancing, smiling, being confident and just being an alpha male, as he should be.

The problem is that the greatest asset The Joker usually have is his mind. He's probably the smartest character in all of DC universe, he's ruthless, he's dangerous and he doesn't act on emotion, at least not complex ones. Did you see that from the Joker?

I also have some minor nitpicks about Thomas Wayne solely being in the movie to have him get killed by a masked Joe Chill and Arthur being like 45 and Wayne being 6. But Im willing to put up with this.

Its a tough movie to make, in nature, the Joker personna is so intriguing because the back story is intriguing, because no one knows what he wants, who he is, where he's from and why he's doing what hes doing. Don't think the movie hits anything particularly well.

Anyway, I still enjoyed the movie for sure, probably one of the best Ive seen this year.
 

Mrb1p

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My favourite scene from Joker after seeing it 3 times now is, no question, the bathroom dance one. The subway chaos could not have possibly been followed by anything more beautiful IMO.

But the scene itself is still mystifying to me and, so far, I only understand its significance as a building block for Arthur on his way to becoming the Joker. The calming effect there is evident (heavy breathing goes away, the careful placement of his feet dancing, etc.), but I wonder if there is more to it.

It is a standout for me for sure.


P.S. I also forgot to mention the outstanding score this film features. It is a major major factor to setting its overall mood.

The score is fantastic for sure, any movie that has Cream in it gets 10 free points from me.

As for the dancing, Ive got some Tai Chi vibes from the moves he's doing at first, his careful movements are really reminiscent of it.
 

DAChampion

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that was neither the real thomas Wayne nor the real Bruce Wayne. It was the joker's perception of them

Notice that Bruce never behaves like a kid, and never responds to things like a kid would.
 

BehindTheTimes

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The Joker I'm referring to appears a lot sooner than that. At the very least, he is himself when his two clown-buddies (I forget their names.) see him in his appartment, I'd say he appears even sooner. He's not timid, emotionally fragile or pitiful, at all from that point. When he wears the make-up, he's "Joker" through and through. He even attempts one of his traditional terror attack on the show. He's dancing, smiling, being confident and just being an alpha male, as he should be.

The problem is that the greatest asset The Joker usually have is his mind. He's probably the smartest character in all of DC universe, he's ruthless, he's dangerous and he doesn't act on emotion, at least not complex ones. Did you see that from the Joker?

I also have some minor nitpicks about Thomas Wayne solely being in the movie to have him get killed by a masked Joe Chill and Arthur being like 45 and Wayne being 6. But Im willing to put up with this.

Its a tough movie to make, in nature, the Joker personna is so intriguing because the back story is intriguing, because no one knows what he wants, who he is, where he's from and why he's doing what hes doing. Don't think the movie hits anything particularly well.

Anyway, I still enjoyed the movie for sure, probably one of the best Ive seen this year.
JP stands alone. No one on earth as good as him. I said it long before this movie and The Joker only re-enforces that fact. He is the best actor alive. I don't think there is anyone close.
 
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GoodKiwi

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JP stands alone. No one on earth as good as him. I said it long before this movie and The Joker only re-enforces that fact. He is the best actor alive. I don't think there is anyone close.
It's mind-boggling for me to think how wide of an acting range the man has. From my favourite movie of his "You were never really here" to "Joker" it's inconceivable to grasp that it's the same person on camera in both.

You know how even the very best actors tend to play to their strengths and eventually develop a character type you start associating them with? Phoenix is immune to that and will always remain so.
 

Mrb1p

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that was neither the real thomas Wayne nor the real Bruce Wayne. It was the joker's perception of them

Notice that Bruce never behaves like a kid, and never responds to things like a kid would.

How sure of it are you? At this point you could make that point for the whole movie and that would be pretty freaking boring, wouldn't it be?
 

BehindTheTimes

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It's mind-boggling for me to think how wide of an acting range the man has. From my favourite movie of his "You were never really here" to "Joker" it's inconceivable to grasp that it's the same person on camera in both.

You know how even the very best actors tend to play to their strengths and eventually develop a character type you start associating them with? Phoenix is immune to that and will always remain so.
Agreed with everything here.
 

DAChampion

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How sure of it are you? At this point you could make that point for the whole movie and that would be pretty freaking boring, wouldn't it be?
You can make that point for the whole movie other than the last scene, and no, I don't think it's boring.
 

GoodKiwi

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Not to beat on a dead horse, but I finally found an article with direct quotes from Phillips on the lead character:

Despite that affinity for balance, Philips didn’t look to the source material of the character when creating the film. “We didn’t follow anything from the comic-books, which people are gonna be mad about,” the filmmaker told Empire. “We just wrote our own version of where a guy like Joker might come from. That’s what was interesting to me. We’re not even doing Joker, but the story of becoming Joker. It’s about this man.”

'Joker,' an Uneasy Embrace of Comics and an Ambiguous Meaning
 
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Mrb1p

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Watched Crypto on HBO. There were a lot of advance promos for it and it turned out to be a dud. Thankfully it was only a movie and not a series. The main character is unconvincing, slow as molasses when he talks and you couldn't possibly associate him with the high degree of intelligence that the role demanded. The whole thing was poorly developed, characters and situations were thrown at you without providing sufficient context or background info, it was a clusterf*** of disjointed scenes.
 

Kriss E

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Not to beat on a dead horse, but I finally found an article with direct quotes from Phillips on the lead character:



'Joker,' an Uneasy Embrace of Comics and an Ambiguous Meaning
I was disappointed in the flick.
Maybe it's because I watched it in IMAX but I thought there were way too many close ups ..half the movie seems to be in slow motion with intense violin music playing. Another quarter of it is him just laughing frantically in...yup...close ups.

How they film it killed the character and story development for me. Didnt enjoy the flow of it all.
Maybe itll win an oscar for best musical..
 

Mrb1p

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I was disappointed in the flick.
Maybe it's because I watched it in IMAX but I thought there were way too many close ups ..half the movie seems to be in slow motion with intense violin music playing. Another quarter of it is him just laughing frantically in...yup...close ups.

How they film it killed the character and story development for me. Didnt enjoy the flow of it all.
Maybe itll win an oscar for best musical..
I enjoyed it but I have to agree on the cinematography, it over did it for sure, I didnt mind that but I can see why someone wouldn't like it.
 

Tim Wallach

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I was disappointed in the flick.
Maybe it's because I watched it in IMAX but I thought there were way too many close ups ..half the movie seems to be in slow motion with intense violin music playing. Another quarter of it is him just laughing frantically in...yup...close ups.

How they film it killed the character and story development for me. Didnt enjoy the flow of it all.
Maybe itll win an oscar for best musical..

Intense, lingering close-ups are my biggest pet peeve in directorial tactics these days. I get the stark, naked component they are supposed to bring, but I find them redundant, awkward and just annoying over time. Peter Jackson is the worst offender, but thanks for the warning on this film.
 

Kriss E

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Intense, lingering close-ups are my biggest pet peeve in directorial tactics these days. I get the stark, naked component they are supposed to bring, but I find them redundant, awkward and just annoying over time. Peter Jackson is the worst offender, but thanks for the warning on this film.

I don't mind and I get the tactic, but there just were way too many for my likings. Same with the slowmo scenes...way too many.
 

Tim Wallach

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I don't mind and I get the tactic, but there just were way too many for my likings. Same with the slowmo scenes...way too many.

Yes, it's about quantity. As a tactic, it's effective if used sparingly and for gravitas. Over-use of anything is a bad idea. Like how every single music producer on planet earth used the "tap the high hat repeatedly" technique in every song since 2015. Art should be creative. Leaning on a crutch isn't.
 

Kriss E

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I enjoyed it but I have to agree on the cinematography, it over did it for sure, I didnt mind that but I can see why someone wouldn't like it.
Ya there was just too much of it. No flow to the movie. They spent too much time on that and not enough of developing the story.
I mean...okay..Arthur is loco, he's gotten a very rough ride in life and reached a boiling point. I think they should have showed disturbance when he was young to explain a steady string of events leading him to being a loser clown living at home in his 40s instead of wasting so much time on slowmo-close ups-frantic laughing scenes, and I thought the ''let's just put 3 annoying drunk dudes on a train to bully him'' as the boiling point was just too lazy, but okay, I can still see why he loses it.
The rest of the city though?? Just like that...everyone just starts wearing a clown mask? Why is everyone going nuts? Because Wayne insulted them? Come on. The guy assassinates a beloved talk show host live on TV and people cherish him as a hero for it? What the hell. You can't just say ''things are bad out there'' and have a guy insult the population to justify such an evil societal behavior. They did a really bad job develop that story line.
 
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