Lets talk about Auston Matthews.

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

babcock doesn't need to unleash matthews
you want him to.

that is a big difference.

I disagree. I think the playoffs showed that we do need Matthews to get going if we want to win. We likely would have moved on if he was more than a complete non-factor

 

[Mats13]

babcock doesn't need to unleash matthews
you want him to.

that is a big difference.

What does that even mean?

Do us all a favour: list the cup winners in the last decade without an "unleashed" dominant C.

I guess if you don't want to win the cup, then you don't need to unleash him...

 

[Daisy Jane]

What does that even mean?

Do us all a favour: list the cup winners in the last decade without an "unleashed" dominant C.

I guess if you don't want to win the cup, then you don't need to unleash him...

if you bothered reading past this post, you would have seen the argument was unleashing Matthews ie: playing him more minutes to be dominant. which, i pointed out that Matthews has been dominant without needing to to play more minutes, that's how I approached it anyway. the last two seasons Matthews has seen more responsibility given to him and the only reason why it was dialed back was because of his back injury because Matthews skating wasn't there.

a lot of people here and in the media, feel Matthews needs to play a gobsmackingly amount of minutes to be better, and be the first player on the powerplay etc, because he's a #1 centre. without ever taking into consideration that our 2nd ranked PP (two years running)'s best unit is the one not with matthews on it. both years. or that Matthews, while having his PP points plays a lot better even strength than he does on the powerplay. Or ignoring the fact that the sports science department (which the organization utalizes heavily) has limited most of the players ice time. I even said, (again has you read past this post) if Matthews was having a game (or if we were losing) to throw him over the boards play him with marner, because he is a game breaker. but he can also break the game playing the even amount of minutes that he has he was going to surpass his totals playing the same amount of minutes.

so this thought that Babcock is holding him back (ie: the only way I can imagine most ppl mean, via ice time) is a want, basically so people can go see he's right up there with everyone else, but the fact Matthews can dominant without having to extend his ice time to me seems like a want. (to which, again, i broke down further had you read past this post vs snarking at me).

 

[Daisy Jane]

I disagree. I think the playoffs showed that we do need Matthews to get going if we want to win. We likely would have moved on if he was more than a complete non-factor

but that wasn't due to Babcock holding him back.
that was due to matthews being a non factor.
and I personally don't think the way Matthews played that series, if babcock played him more, all of a sudden the floodgates would have opened and Matthews would have broken through.

I firmly believe if matthews back/shoulder wasn't an issue, Babcock probably would have given him a bit more ice time (or found ways to hide himfrom Chara/Bergeron) like he should have done in game 3 (but we won game 3 so it's kinda moot) and I think as time goes on he'll probably get more PP time regardless so his ice time will go up, but his ES time might be level. I think he can get going with what he does and can really make an impact like so. When it doesn't, then I think that's when his ice time will go up. when it needs to.

 

[Pookie]

Last playoffs, Matthews average TOI was 20:18

This year, it was 17:38.

He missed many games this year to injury. Babcock had no issue relying on him last year. I doubt that changed.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best one.

Matthews was most likely not 100% against the Bruins and Babcock had to manage his time.

 

[Tonka]

Watching Kuznetsov doing well this playoffs should give us comfort that an elite Matthews will do better in the future. Darn he sucked this year in the playoffs.

 

[Gallagbi]

Last playoffs, Matthews average TOI was 20:18

This year, it was 17:38.

He missed many games this year to injury. Babcock had no issue relying on him last year. I doubt that changed.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best one.

Matthews was most likely not 100% against the Bruins and Babcock had to manage his time.

Wonder how much of that was due to the significant OT games we played last year and general closeness of the games. Also seemed like we had more PPs last year.

 

[93LEAFS]

Last playoffs, Matthews average TOI was 20:18

This year, it was 17:38.

He missed many games this year to injury. Babcock had no issue relying on him last year. I doubt that changed.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best one.

Matthews was most likely not 100% against the Bruins and Babcock had to manage his time.

Those numbers are probably skewed due to having 2 games go into double overtime.

 

[Semantics]

His ATOI last year was 17:59 (per 60) adjusting for the overtime. So not much different than this year, and not enough for a player of that caliber.

 

[Daisy Jane]

His ATOI last year was 17:59 (per 60) adjusting for the overtime. So not much different than this year, and not enough for a player of that caliber.

but again he did extremely well his first year and was going to surpass last year's total with that that time. so why would he need more all of a sudden? he's clearly shown he can cause a lot of damage with the time he has.

 

[Liminality]

https://www.tsn.ca/video/dreger-caf-appetizer-babcock-details-meeting-with-matthews~1393149

Babcock talking about pushing Matthews.

 

[Mats13]

if you bothered reading past this post, you would have seen the argument was unleashing Matthews ie: playing him more minutes to be dominant. which, i pointed out that Matthews has been dominant without needing to to play more minutes, that's how I approached it anyway. the last two seasons Matthews has seen more responsibility given to him and the only reason why it was dialed back was because of his back injury because Matthews skating wasn't there.

a lot of people here and in the media, feel Matthews needs to play a gobsmackingly amount of minutes to be better, and be the first player on the powerplay etc, because he's a #1 centre. without ever taking into consideration that our 2nd ranked PP (two years running)'s best unit is the one not with matthews on it. both years. or that Matthews, while having his PP points plays a lot better even strength than he does on the powerplay. Or ignoring the fact that the sports science department (which the organization utalizes heavily) has limited most of the players ice time. I even said, (again has you read past this post) if Matthews was having a game (or if we were losing) to throw him over the boards play him with marner, because he is a game breaker. but he can also break the game playing the even amount of minutes that he has he was going to surpass his totals playing the same amount of minutes.

so this thought that Babcock is holding him back (ie: the only way I can imagine most ppl mean, via ice time) is a want, basically so people can go see he's right up there with everyone else, but the fact Matthews can dominant without having to extend his ice time to me seems like a want. (to which, again, i broke down further had you read past this post vs snarking at me).

1. Sure he's been dominant when he touches the ice. So why not give him more minutes and more PP time? He doesnt even play in the top 30 ice time for centers.

You're so caught up in looking at just Matthews you're not looking at rhe bigger picture. Matthews tilts the ice when he's playing. It's really that simple to me. He's the best player on our team and it isn't remotely close.

So why is it that instead of tilting the ice for 20 mins, we opt to only do it for 17 or sometimes even 15 mins. There's no logical explanation for this. It doesn't help us win - that's bullshit. It didn't preserve Matthews for the playoffs - again bullshit. So what does intentionally limiting the best Leaf since Sundin accomplish?

There were games when Komarov got more ice time than Matthews. Justify that.

2. This isn't directed at you but it's a point of frustration for a lot of people.

His linemates. I don't hate Zach Hyman. I actually really like him. But let's take a look at the teams left standing:

Jets: Scheifele plays with Connor and Wheeler. Oh look no grinder, all talent. I wonder how they get the puck.

Tampa: Stamkos plays with Kucherov and Miller (was Namestnikov or however you spell it)

Vegas: they're an outlier for sure but lets look anyway. Karlsson plays with Marchessault and Smith. Again no grinders all talented players.

Washington: a weird case because they're best player is Ovechkin. Not really a center. But he still plays with Backstrom/Kuznetsov.

Overall: my point is, I'd rather we not handicap our most dangerous weapon. Because whatever reasoning you try to present. You miss once crucial fact. All great teams play their top C a lot of mins. It's how you win Cups. If you're content with just playoff appearances then I guess its fine the way it is now. But some of us want more.

 

[Liminality]

Overall: my point is, I'd rather we not handicap our most dangerous weapon. Because whatever reasoning you try to present. You miss once crucial fact. All great teams play their top C a lot of mins. It's how you win Cups. If you're content with just playoff appearances then I guess its fine the way it is now. But some of us want more.

At even strength, Matthews isn't getting handicapped. He's 15th overall for centers in the regular season in even strength icetime at 15:57. The place which really affects his total ice time is his special teams. He doesn't PK yet and he's on the lower end for powerplay time for top end centers. I'd agree with giving him increased powerplay time but that might be a given with how differently the powerplay units are going to be shaped next year.

The games where everyone cries about icetime usage are the games where the Leafs take tons of penalties and the PK unit needs to be out there for like 5+ minutes worth of PK time. Matthews is still usually the forward with the most even strength ice time even in those games.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Overall: my point is, I'd rather we not handicap our most dangerous weapon. Because whatever reasoning you try to present. You miss once crucial fact. All great teams play their top C a lot of mins. It's how you win Cups. If you're content with just playoff appearances then I guess its fine the way it is now. But some of us want more.

well i wrote down a big response (and i'll actually save it and post it if you want, but i figure the crux of what you are saying is here .

1. i obviously want more, so you can stop saying "if you are content with playoff appearances" to me
2: i'm not missing that crucial fact that top centres play more.

Let's say the top centre plays an medium of 22 minutes, Yah?
Matthews plays an average of 18. That's missing an average of 4 minutes.

Those 4 minutes come either one of three ways
1: powerplay time.
Matthews unit statistically the past 2 years has not been the more productive unit. That's Marner's unit. (now that Bozak/JVR are gone, i would put Matthews on the Marner unit and I think that should change anyway. Natural addition of 2 minutes right there).
also. we tend to forget the Leafs don't generally 1: draw many penalties, and 2: when they do they don't spend a lot of time on it, because it's so efficient. Ergo even if he did get PP time, the minutes might not exactly show 2 minutes but we'll just use it for maths sake.

2: Penalty Kill Time.
I think personally Matty would be a great PKer. if he did, that's your 2++ (due to the amount of penalties to powerplay ratio that the Leafs generate)

3: More Even Strength Time.
Matthews is most efficient playing five on five. so arguably this means Matthews will continue to go up against the other teams best lines even at home, taking an average of 2 minutes from Kadri (who is the shut down centre at home as Matthews faces the toplines on the road for the most part). As Matthews gets strong/better, he will more than likely become the "Bergeron" again, 2 extra minutes.

that's not taking into consideration (we are losing , play matthews more or, Matthews is having a night, play matthews more). Woila. Matthews 4 missing minutes to put him on average with everyone else. something that will naturally come with time (and patience if we're going with Options 2 or 3).

i feel that a lot of that will just come with time (or just naturally). I personally feel this team is plenty dangerous and capable of winning the cup playing balanced as it is, making adjustments as it calls for. so again the argument of "Matthews needs to be unleashed." is mitigating the fact that the Leafs have 2 dangerous lines.. and I also think that we can win the cup without having to ride Matthews into the ground like a donkey because of that strength. that doesn't mean when it calls for it that we shouldn't. (we should). just that, because of what we have up front, we don't need to. Matthews can tilt the ice. Marner can tilt the ice. (now depending what we do for line #3 this argument can and will change obviously, and that actually in fact can even explain another 2+ minutes for Matthews,which again. is a natural occurrence, not having to be "unleashed." and to just. continue with that word choice, if we can say that Babcock is trying to get Matthews more and more responsible (and strong and confident) in the defensive zone, (he is already i just mean "better") wouldn't it make more sense to unleash Matthews when he's capable of being his very best, not just half baked?)

 

[MR4]

At even strength, Matthews isn't getting handicapped. He's 15th overall for centers in the regular season in even strength icetime at 15:57. The place which really affects his total ice time is his special teams. He doesn't PK yet and he's on the lower end for powerplay time for top end centers. I'd agree with giving him increased powerplay time but that might be a given with how differently the powerplay units are going to be shaped next year.

The games where everyone cries about icetime usage are the games where the Leafs take tons of penalties and the PK unit needs to be out there for like 5+ minutes worth of PK time. Matthews is still usually the forward with the most even strength ice time even in those games.

Well that's another issue. Babcock hasn't got Matthews to playable on PK level yet, even though he's one of the players most suited to playing it. He should be playing PKs in the 3rd period or when he's had a long stretch of not playing because we've been on the PK for most of a period.

But again for the Komarov more minutes than Matthews thing that's been mentioned, if Babcock knows that Komarov has been playing a lot of PK, Babcock needs to be overplaying Matthews at ES to make up for it, not keep playing Komarov at ES as well

 

[Daisy Jane]

Well that's another issue. Babcock hasn't got Matthews to playable on PK level yet, even though he's one of the players most suited to playing it. He should be playing PKs in the 3rd period or when he's had a long stretch of not playing because we've been on the PK for most of a period.

But again for the Komarov more minutes than Matthews thing that's been mentioned, if Babcock knows that Komarov has been playing a lot of PK, Babcock needs to be overplaying Matthews at ES to make up for it, not keep playing Komarov at ES as well

that i would agree with.

 

[Loosie]

https://www.tsn.ca/video/dreger-caf-appetizer-babcock-details-meeting-with-matthews~1393149

Babcock talking about pushing Matthews.

That interview also should put to rest all this 'rift' talk.

 

[Daisy Jane]

That interview also should put to rest all this 'rift' talk.

seriously.

 

[v00d00daddy]

Ok so maybe Babcock had to shelter Matthews because of injury.

Maybe

But that makes me wonder:

Why was Matthews played on the pp (where he’s less likely to get run or injured) less than Marner, Bozak, JVR, Kadri, and Nylander? (Komarov too but he only played twice)

Babcock won’t answer this question if ever asked....so let’s hear some reasons here.

 

[Liminality]

Ok so maybe Babcock had to shelter Matthews because of injury.

Maybe

But that makes me wonder:

Why was Matthews played on the pp (where he’s less likely to get run or injured) less than Marner, Bozak, JVR, Kadri, and Nylander? (Komarov too but he only played twice)

Babcock won’t answer this question if ever asked....so let’s hear some reasons here.

Because our #1 unit is better than the #2 unit.

 

[moon111]

...
Jets: Scheifele plays with Connor and Wheeler. Oh look no grinder, all talent. I wonder how they get the puck.
...

Is Kadri soft? Wheeler's hits per game is the same as Kadri. Think that is significant enough grit.

 

[Sypher04]

Well that's another issue. Babcock hasn't got Matthews to playable on PK level yet, even though he's one of the players most suited to playing it. He should be playing PKs in the 3rd period or when he's had a long stretch of not playing because we've been on the PK for most of a period.

But again for the Komarov more minutes than Matthews thing that's been mentioned, if Babcock knows that Komarov has been playing a lot of PK, Babcock needs to be overplaying Matthews at ES to make up for it, not keep playing Komarov at ES as well

Matthews not PKing has little to nothing to do with his ability or lack thereof to do it. Babcock wouldn't be playing him there either way. This is clearly evidenced by the fact he uses Kadri as his go to shutdown center, and Kadri doesn't penalty kill at all.

He's not inclined to put his skill guys on the penalty kill

 

[Gary Nylund]

FWIW, Babcock says his meeting with Matthews was a home run.

Without media involvement, I might have gone for a beer with Auston, or I might’ve had coffee with him. But I probably wouldn’t have gone to his house,” Babcock noted of the situation. “It ended up being a home run.

Leafs' Babcock says meeting with Matthews was a 'home run'

 

[v00d00daddy]

Because our #1 unit is better than the #2 unit.

So Matthews has to make unit #2 better than #1 for Babcock to give him unit #1 pp unit ice time?

Seriously?

Nobody would argue with this statement:

Auston Matthews is the Leafs best forward.

Now name another team in the NHL that ices 5 other fwds on the pp more than their best.

Babcock is one of the best coaches in the world. That doesn’t make him perfect.

Limiting matthews’ pp ice time the way Babcock does is a mistake.

 

[member 300185]

So Matthews has to make unit #2 better than #1 for Babcock to give him unit #1 pp unit ice time?

Seriously?

Nobody would argue with this statement:

Auston Matthews is the Leafs best forward.

Now name another team in the NHL that ices 5 other fwds on the pp more than their best.

Babcock is one of the best coaches in the world. That doesn’t make him perfect.

Limiting matthews’ pp ice time the way Babcock does is a mistake.

I'll argue that statement. For the last 2 months Marner has been the Leafs best forward and its not even close.