Post-Game Talk: Let’s take a Flyer on the standings

[Empoleon8771]

Okay. Conor Sheary for 1.5m in the off season. Sheary's been a better forechecker according to Sznajder's stats, has a p/60 a solid .21 higher and his xGF% is about 10% better. The likelihood we're in the same boat with him is pretty good.

What we choose to do with the extra 4m, 1st, and Addison I dunno, but it would probably make the team better than the extra 4m spent on Zucker. Very difficult not to.

Just like it's fairly difficult not to do better for 5.5m and two good assets than we've done this season. Most times you open up that mystery box of "what else could we have got for that", it works out better than Zucker has this season. Fingers crossed he saves the best for the playoffs.



Good on the kid, wished he'd done it anywhere else.

And Sheary was constantly a failure with Malkin anytime he was tried there, was used in a purely offensive role and offered pretty much nothing beyond his production, regardless of what his analytics suggested.

Coleman? Yeah, I think that's a fair one to say, assuming you could get him for the Zucker return (which I doubt but it's not the point). Signing Verhaeghe and keeping the 1st and Addison? Fine, I can get that. Sheary? No way, and that's coming from someone who likes Sheary.

It's not Monday morning quarterbacking if you call it a problem at the time.

Zucker didn't address any of our biggest needs - he was simply more of the same even if he had worked out, but he hasn't even done that. It was a long-term solution to a short-term problem, and we paid a premium for it even though our asset pool is one of the worst in the league.



Yeah, anything "might" happen. But Zucker has been a dud and a bad fit so far, there's no disputing that. Unfortunately we don't judge trades in Imaginationland.

It was not a good trade. It was a bad trade using assets we couldn't afford to lose for a player we didn't need.

I don't know many Pens fans who wouldn't take back that trade right now. The fact that he's expansion draft fodder says everything.

You're grossly overrating what you can get back for Addison and a 1st if this is your evaluation of the Zucker trade.

That's the kind of return that teams give up for 2nd line players or 2nd/3rd line tweeners, and that's exactly what Zucker has been with the Penguins. I mean hell, you were screeching that the Penguins should acquire Palmieri, and he proceeded to put up 21 points in 50 games this year between the Islanders and Devils.

 

[mpp9]

I’ll agree with Soggy that Zucker ended up being too similar to what we already have. He was ok as a short term replacement for Jake. But once Jake came back, Zucker lost his spot at both ES and PP. And he’s been struggling to fit here ever since.

Pens could really use a different style of player to fill out the top 6.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Just finished watching the recorded game on NHL TV.

Not a single shot made it behind either of those goaltenders.

How on earth?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

And Lavi is still not committed to him being in their healthy line-up. It's downright bizarre at this point. He's Pirri 2.0.

The more chances he gets, the more he's proving it.

Ovie being out has opened the door a crack.

 

[Peat]

And Sheary was constantly a failure with Malkin anytime he was tried there, was used in a purely offensive role and offered pretty much nothing beyond his production, regardless of what his analytics suggested.

Coleman? Yeah, I think that's a fair one to say, assuming you could get him for the Zucker return (which I doubt but it's not the point). Signing Verhaeghe and keeping the 1st and Addison? Fine, I can get that. Sheary? No way, and that's coming from someone who likes Sheary.

Given how Zucker ended the season with a -7 at 5v5 - worst on the team - with a GF% of 42.22 - the second worst of regulars behind Laffety - and took Malkin from +3 to -2, with a 6% lower xGF%, I'm not entirely sure what we'd be losing by going from Zucker to Sheary here.

I mean, pretty much all Zucker's offered here is production. And sure, there's a whole bunch of reasons I could and would offer if the "Stone Zucker" group were posting but to a certain extent, it's kinda besides the point. Whatever the reason is, it hasn't worked, and if we want to know who could have replaced what he did here, the answer is "most guys" because Zucker's been Just A Guy save for PP2 production. It's why I can't see the logic behind your point that Zucker's been worth it for a win now team, because what's offered has been so lacklustre and easily replaceable. Dom L's GSVA calculations has Andreas Johnsson as basically the same as Zucker and he moved for a mid-round pick.

I 100% believe Rutherford did the right thing at the time and would 100% reverse the trade if I could.

edit: This may look daft during the playoffs. He could raise his game and be real good. But he's got to do it. There's no more "patience, every player good and bad". The good's got to happen right now.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

It's not Monday morning quarterbacking if you call it a problem at the time.

Zucker didn't address any of our biggest needs - he was simply more of the same even if he had worked out, but he hasn't even done that. It was a long-term solution to a short-term problem, and we paid a premium for it even though our asset pool is one of the worst in the league.



Yeah, anything "might" happen. But Zucker has been a dud and a bad fit so far, there's no disputing that. Unfortunately we don't judge trades in Imaginationland.

It was not a good trade. It was a bad trade using assets we couldn't afford to lose for a player we didn't need.

I don't know many Pens fans who wouldn't take back that trade right now. The fact that he's expansion draft fodder says everything.

No shi$! Pretty easy after the fact. Will see what happens these playoffs. But to say that was a bad fit is plain stupid. Guentzel was out for the year and we had a top 7 team in the league despite only 3 games with both Crosby and Malkin and many other top players out. So adding a LW to the top 6 made sense. Zucker was a 20+ goal scoring LW with speed that played the perfect style for our system. That deal made perfect sense.

Not all deals work out and unless you win the Cup then you will always complain about the futures given up for players to win now. All make trades like the Kessel, Zucker, and Kapanen types any day because they are for players in their primes with years of control. Those are much better than the Shero types trading 1sts for players like Iginla as a rental. Leafs traded a 1st and 2 4ths to rent Foligno for these playoffs. People like you that whine about losing picks and prospects for players like Zucker and Kapanen don't get it. You go for it while you still have Crosby, Malkin, and Letang playing at a high level. All take those deals over aging rentals any day.

Plus like I said Rutherford did a nice job of keeping the team young around the core which is something that Patrick and Shero didn't do. Adding prospect aged players just since 2019 such as Pettersson, Marino, POJ, Lee, and Maniscalco on defense and McCann, Kapanen, ZAR, Zohorna, O'Conner, and others on forward all while adding those other prime aged pieces. Even without those primed aged additions I would still take just those additions over all the picks and prospects given up since 2019.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

You're grossly overrating what you can get back for Addison and a 1st if this is your evaluation of the Zucker trade.

That's the kind of return that teams give up for 2nd line players or 2nd/3rd line tweeners, and that's exactly what Zucker has been with the Penguins. I mean hell, you were screeching that the Penguins should acquire Palmieri, and he proceeded to put up 21 points in 50 games this year between the Islanders and Devils.

Zucker has done nothing but get worse with the Pens. That's not supposed to happen when you're a winger upgrading from the Wild's centers to the Penguins', but here we are. In case you missed it, Palmieri and Zajac combined went for a lot less than Zucker alone.

A 1st and Addison isn't necessarily the entire package for any trade. But it's a couple good building block assets we're now without, all for a guy who's expansion draft fodder in a couple months.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

No shi$! Pretty easy after the fact.

Except it wasn't judged that way after the fact. It was judged that way at the time.

Whatever you want to call it, it's not Monday morning quarterbacking. That's not what the term means.

 

[Gurglesons]

It’s okay to say let’s keep Zucker in the line up and the trade was fair value while also saying the trade has turned out awful and was a clear overpay with what he has brought to us..

 

[Peat]

It’s okay to say let’s keep Zucker in the line up and the trade was fair value while also saying the trade has turned out awful and was a clear overpay with what he has brought to us..

This.

 

[chethejet]

GMJR operated under a simple mandate and Jake going down simply placed the need for a top 6 winger who had nice numbers. Minny gets the pick this year in a draft that is not considered ripe with prospects. Addison was expendable with Marino as the RH D man for the Pens. I was OK with the deal not jumping for joy but OK. But it depends on what he brings back this off season as a Kraken selection or trade. Pens didn't lose much here if he can bring back a nice pick and prospect. Plus his contract is more in favor as he has one less year of term.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

It’s okay to say let’s keep Zucker in the line up and the trade was fair value while also saying the trade has turned out awful and was a clear overpay with what he has brought to us..

Agreed!! Obviously he hasn't given us what we wanted so far this season. He did have 12 points in his 15 regular season games last year after the deal so I would say he did well then. Nobody played well in that Habs series so not judging that. This year his line was playing poorly and then he got hurt. Will see how he does these playoffs but I still think he can pull through and be part of a good 2nd line on a hopeful Cup contender. I still will reserve judgement on if this deal works out.

Like all deals giving up futures it all comes down to winning in the playoffs. This year the Leafs gave up a 1st and 2 4ths to rent Foligno for this one playoffs. Steep price unless you win the Cup. If we only have Zucker for last playoffs and this one and let him go it all comes down to playoff success. If this team wins it and he helps out then great. But we all know only 1 team wins the Cup so it is always a gamble doing these trades. For every Kessel deal that works you get many more Brassard deals that don't. That is life of a contender.

Overall I loved the Rutherford way much more than Shero way that traded 1st and 2nd round picks and prospects for rentals and most in the later stages of their careers. At least Rutherford traded for players in prime or younger with term like Kessel, Perron, Hagelin, Brassard, McCann, Zucker, Kapanen, Pettersson, Marino, and others instead of the Shero way.

This team is still a Cup contender this year despite our team's core in mid 30's. That is some impressive work if you ask me. Adding prospect aged players while still going for it each year is the difference between Patrick/Shero and what Rutherford did. The additions of McCann, Kapanen, Marino, Pettersson, POJ, Zohorna, O'Connor, Lee, and Maniscalco are going to be better than those prospects and picks we gave up. So not only did we add good prime aged players we also added the better prospects in my opinion while going for it each year. You can always nitpick deals that don't work out but that is the case for 30 GM's a year besides the Cup winner.

 

[66-30-33]

+ for the Pens pick Wild own not being a top 5-10 pick.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Zucker has done nothing but get worse with the Pens. That's not supposed to happen when you're a winger upgrading from the Wild's centers to the Penguins', but here we are. In case you missed it, Palmieri and Zajac combined went for a lot less than Zucker alone.

A 1st and Addison isn't necessarily the entire package for any trade. But it's a couple good building block assets we're now without, all for a guy who's expansion draft fodder in a couple months.

Those two are both aging rentals and have done literally nothing for the Islanders to this point. That deal is the exact type of deal Shero used to do for aging rentals. At least it was not for as much as Shero used to pay. His deals looked more like the Foligno deal.

Obviously Rutherford did a nice job because even with the $75 million real money team imposed cap he built a team that finished 1st despite a ton of injuries all at the same time to the defensman and then forwards. Rutherford kept the team young around the core and added several prospect aged players to the organization that are helping now.

I am just glad that Hextall was willing to add Carter and give this team a chance to go for it again. Carter might be older but is not a rental so he is kind of in the middle of a Shero and Rutherford type trade. Older than Rutherford would usually add but isn't a rental and fits perfectly for our team's last 2 best Cup runs with this core. Even better than the Rutherford Cullen addition!!! Love this team but I also loved the 93 and 96 teams so will see.

My best guess of what Rutherford would of traded for would be someone like Bennett who was still in his prime. I do like this Carter deal even at his age because it fits our top contending window.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think the big issue with saying Zucker didn’t do anything for us is it is factually inaccurate. He basically provided everything people want on Malkin’s line from a Coleman or Hyman with less size in Minnesota.

 

[Peat]

I think the big issue with saying Zucker didn’t do anything for us is it is factually inaccurate. He basically provided everything people want on Malkin’s line from a Coleman or Hyman with less size in Minnesota.

Didn't do anything for us in terms of what we hoped to get vs what he was in Minnesota, right? Just making sure I've got that right before I answer.

 

[Gurglesons]

Didn't do anything for us in terms of what we hoped to get vs what he was in Minnesota, right? Just making sure I've got that right before I answer.

The idea that Zucker is just more of the same for our top six in 19-20 when we acquired him.

 

[Peat]

The idea that Zucker is just more of the same for our top six in 19-20 when we acquired him.

Ahh gotcha.

I mean, in a lot of ways he was, but in the best possible way - a guy with the speed and tenacity to ensure play happened at the right end, with enough IQ and hands to ensure it happened on the right players stick, and enough hands and tenacity to rack up plenty of his own points. Yeah, it kinda replicated Rust's skillset a lot and maybe that was a bad idea for a guy destined for Malkin, and yeah it was a chance lost to get some serious skill/physicality in, but it was a package we could use.

Instead he's gone through long chunks of being pretty bad at transition play and hanging onto the puck and making the right passes and not being the guy we thought we were getting. Oops.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ahh gotcha.

I mean, in a lot of ways he was, but in the best possible way - a guy with the speed and tenacity to ensure play happened at the right end, with enough IQ and hands to ensure it happened on the right players stick, and enough hands and tenacity to rack up plenty of his own points. Yeah, it kinda replicated Rust's skillset a lot and maybe that was a bad idea for a guy destined for Malkin, and yeah it was a chance lost to get some serious skill/physicality in, but it was a package we could use.

Instead he's gone through long chunks of being pretty bad at transition play and hanging onto the puck and making the right passes and not being the guy we thought we were getting. Oops.

Yeah, that’s my point and even Rust’s forecheck game fell off where as that was supposed to be Zucker’s bread and butter.

 

[Zirakzigil]

I think one of the biggest issues with Zucker is how he has been utilized. Geno has either been garbage or unhealthy, consistant lack of PP time, zero time with Crosby. He played well with Sid last year and was playing pretty well with Carter before Geno came back. Hopefully he and Geno develop some more chemistry and keep it going. I mean heaven forbid we have another 20 goal winger on our team!

 

[Gurglesons]

I think one of the biggest issues with Zucker is how he has been utilized. Geno has either been garbage or unhealthy, consistant lack of PP time, zero time with Crosby. He played well with Sid last year and was playing pretty well with Carter before Geno came back. Hopefully he and Geno develop some more chemistry and keep it going. I mean heaven forbid we have another 20 goal winger on our team!

I think that’s the part where I don’t get why people are so upset. The reason Zucker looks so bad is because McCann and Kapanen have been lights out.

Its definitely a good problem to have.

 

[Fatty McLardy]

It seems both Bruins and Isles fans badly want to play us out of all the teams remaining.

I remember a time when no team wanted a piece of us - i guess this is what happens when you get humiliated two years in a row in the 1st round

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

It seems both Bruins and Isles fans badly want to play us out of all the teams remaining.

I remember a time when no team wanted a piece of us - i guess this is what happens when you get humiliated two years in a row in the 1st round

Cuz we soff team, very soff