Post-Game Talk: Let’s take a Flyer on the standings

[Empoleon8771]

Come on now. There were plenty of better things we could have done last summer with that 1st, Addison, and 5.5m in cap with 20/20 hindsight. I think the complaints are overdone and reckon he could still go off big at the right moment for us in the playoffs, but being happy enough to redo the trade? Nope.

What were these better alternatives? Who was traded within the last year that would have been a much better fit than Zucker for the price they paid?

 

[Gurglesons]

What were these better alternatives? Who was traded within the last year that would have been a much better fit than Zucker for the price they paid?

Blake Coleman seems like the obvious one?

Guentzel - Crosby - Rust
Coleman - Malkin - Kapanen
McCann - Carter - Rodrigues
ZAR - Blueger - Tanev

Seems like a perfect line-up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Blake Coleman seems like the obvious one?

Guentzel - Crosby - Rust
Coleman - Malkin - Kapanen
McCann - Carter - Rodrigues
ZAR - Blueger - Tanev

Seems like a perfect line-up.

I don't think you could have gotten Coleman for the price the Penguins paid for Zucker, I think at minimum it would have been Poulin and a 1st. I'm also not sold that Coleman is a better player than Zucker, although the cap savings would be significant.

Coleman is probably the best guy to target in hindsight, but I'm not sold that it would have been doable for the price they paid for Zucker.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't think you could have gotten Coleman for the price the Penguins paid for Zucker, I think at minimum it would have been Poulin and a 1st. I'm also not sold that Coleman is a better player than Zucker, although the cap savings would be significant.

Coleman is probably the best guy to target in hindsight, but I'm not sold that it would have been doable for the price they paid for Zucker.

I'd argue Addison was a better prospect than Foote. Are you saying because it was in division?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'd argue Addison was a better prospect than Foote. Are you saying because it was in division?

I think the division is the biggest factor, but I'm not sure that I'd put Addison over Foote. I still think the equivalent of what the Lightning gave up is Poulin and a 1st, not Addison and a 1st.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think the division is the biggest factor, but I'm not sure that I'd put Addison over Foote. I still think the equivalent of what the Lightning gave up is Poulin and a 1st, not Addison and a 1st.

That just seems like a faulty thought process. Addison was better in the WJC and in the WHL than Foote was at his age.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That just seems like a faulty thought process.

I don't see how it is, but whatever. I'll give you Coleman assuming you could have gotten him for that package. Beyond him and signing Verhaeghe, I'm not seeing much that seems better than trading for Zucker in hindsight.

Zucker may not have been the best decision in hindsight, but I struggle to say that I'd undo the trade outside of 1 or 2 alternatives.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't see how it is, but whatever. I'll give you Coleman assuming you could have gotten him for that package. Beyond him and signing Verhaeghe, I'm not seeing much that seems better than trading for Zucker in hindsight

I was referring to Addison being a lesser prospect than Foote.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

The most we lose in the Carter trade is a 2nd and 3rd.

I know that but I was just saying that it could be a 1st and I wouldn't care if we won the Cup. I really hope it is a 2nd and a 3rd instead of a 3rd and 4th. This team is one of the best assembled teams of the Crosby era. Let's hope they can pull it off. 93 team and 96 team had all star casts but lost to teams much inferior. Anything can happen in the playoffs. Look at 2 years ago when Tampa blew away the rest of the league in the regular season then got swept by the 8th seed in round one. Love this team and the never give up fight they showed when they had so many players out. Still have to do it when it counts.

 

[Coastal Kev]

What were these better alternatives? Who was traded within the last year that would have been a much better fit than Zucker for the price they paid?

Daniel Sprong


And we would have 4.5 mil in cap ++++++ Addison+++++a first

 

[Peat]

What were these better alternatives? Who was traded within the last year that would have been a much better fit than Zucker for the price they paid?

Pretty much nobody's been traded for Zucker's price over the last year because the cap crunch means pretty much nobody's been making these trades. Good teams haven't had the cap and bad teams haven't had the incentive. Who knows what we could have done if we'd had the space and assets to offer fair value to good teams up against the cap?

Or, given his performance overall this season, we coulda just grabbed whoever and kept all the assets for another day. He's been decent enough since returning from injury but that doesn't change that he's not been a big part of team success this season at all. Would we be any worse for having simply kept Sheary instead? Unlikely.

I don't fault Rutherford for what he did but the idea we wouldn't want to redo the trade given how it's gone?

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Daniel Sprong


And we would have 4.5 mil in cap ++++++ Addison+++++a first

What are you talking about???? It was Pettersson for Sprong which was a steal for us. Pettersson stepped right in and played top 4 minutes. Sprong was sent to the minors and just now getting a shot after being let go for nothing from the Ducks. Even this season he was benched for many games. Sprong is a flawed offensive player. Kind of a poor man's Kessel. Kessel in peek form is worth his defensive liabilities and Sprong is not.

1st and Addison for Zucker was a fair price. Addison has no shot at helping the Pens in our Cup contention years and neither would that 1st round pick. All take an established top 6 in their primes with term any day for that price. Kapanen was even better being younger and cheaper but most fans thought the Zucker deal was better than the Kapanen deal. I was one of the few that disagreed.

Go take your Sprong loving self over to the Caps board.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Pretty much nobody's been traded for Zucker's price over the last year because the cap crunch means pretty much nobody's been making these trades. Good teams haven't had the cap and bad teams haven't had the incentive. Who knows what we could have done if we'd had the space and assets to offer fair value to good teams up against the cap?

Or, given his performance overall this season, we coulda just grabbed whoever and kept all the assets for another day. He's been decent enough since returning from injury but that doesn't change that he's not been a big part of team success this season at all. Would we be any worse for having simply kept Sheary instead? Unlikely.

I don't fault Rutherford for what he did but the idea we wouldn't want to redo the trade given how it's gone?

The Leafs gave up a 1st and 2 4ths for rental Foligno!!! How is that not the same type deal!!! Zucker was the better player when traded and was younger with years of control and they both went for about the same price. Addison is worth more than two 4ths but no more than a 2nd. Considering it was a rental that wasn't having a good year I would say that is a much worse trade. 1st and Vrana was also a huge price for Mantha who like Zucker is in prime but 1st and a much better proven player than Addison in Vrana. I rather have him on my team than Mantha and he is 1 1/2 years younger and a 1st added on? I am sorry I see the same type of trades as the Zucker one every year including this year.

It is sad that we have some of our own fans and I use that term loosely talking bad on the trades that are part of why this team is division Champs. Rutherford built a division championship team for $75 million real money cap. He started this rebuild in the middle of the 2019 season starting with that Pettersson for Sprong deal. Since that deal Rutherford added Pettersson, Marino, Matheson, Ceci, and POJ to the defensman depth and McCann, Tanev, Zucker, Kapanen, Gaudreau, Erod, ZAR, Sceviour, Jankowski, Zohorna, and O'Conner to the forward depth. Without that added youth, skill, and skating to this lineup we are a bottom feeder team. But you guys keep worrying about our first round picks and prospects like Addison and Sprong!

All take this great depth team that we have now. Love the final piece of Carter added to the team. I know Rutherford would of added a big name piece also but Carter was the perfect fit and for a bargain price. Rutherford didn't like trading for players not in their primes but Carter is the right player for the right time. His contract fits perfect for this teams last 2 serious Cup runs.

Let's go Pens!!!

 

[TKalltheTime]

BRING BACK RICK T!

 

[Darren McCord]

What were these better alternatives? Who was traded within the last year that would have been a much better fit than Zucker for the price they paid?

Toffli could have been a better fit and arguable cost less. The issue is he wasn't signed and no one knew he would take like 4.25 mill.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Pretty much nobody's been traded for Zucker's price over the last year because the cap crunch means pretty much nobody's been making these trades. Good teams haven't had the cap and bad teams haven't had the incentive. Who knows what we could have done if we'd had the space and assets to offer fair value to good teams up against the cap?

Or, given his performance overall this season, we coulda just grabbed whoever and kept all the assets for another day. He's been decent enough since returning from injury but that doesn't change that he's not been a big part of team success this season at all. Would we be any worse for having simply kept Sheary instead? Unlikely.

I don't fault Rutherford for what he did but the idea we wouldn't want to redo the trade given how it's gone?

To convince me that undoing the Zucker trade would be a good idea, you need something substantially more concrete than "who knows what we could have done?". For a win now team, I'm absolutely taking Zucker over a mystery box of potential "who knows what we could have done?".

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

What are you talking about???? It was Pettersson for Sprong which was a steal for us. Pettersson stepped right in and played top 4 minutes. Sprong was sent to the minors and just now getting a shot after being let go for nothing from the Ducks. Even this season he was benched for many games. Sprong is a flawed offensive player. Kind of a poor man's Kessel. Kessel in peek form is worth his defensive liabilities and Sprong is not.

1st and Addison for Zucker was a fair price. Addison has no shot at helping the Pens in our Cup contention years and neither would that 1st round pick. All take an established top 6 in their primes with term any day for that price. Kapanen was even better being younger and cheaper but most fans thought the Zucker deal was better than the Kapanen deal. I was one of the few that disagreed.

Go take your Sprong loving self over to the Caps board.

Here's one for all the /60 acolytes:

Of all NHL players who've played at least 40 games this year, only Matthews has a better G/60 than Sprong. That's it.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

To convince me that undoing the Zucker trade would be a good idea, you need something substantially more concrete than "who knows what we could have done?". For a win now team, I'm absolutely taking Zucker over a mystery box of potential "who knows what we could have done?".

Sometimes, the best move is no move at all.

That's the case with Zucker.

We'd have finished no worse off that year, and we'd have retained 2 valuable assets to work with moving forward. Pretty cut and dried.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Here's one for all the /60 acolytes:

Of all NHL players who've played at least 40 games this year, only Matthews has a better G/60 than Sprong. That's it.

Good for him. The Penguins got a pretty good DFD for him, and it seems like Sprong needed a few more years of development after the Penguins traded him.

Sometimes, the best move is no move at all.

That's the case with Zucker.

We'd have finished no worse off that year, and we'd have retained 2 valuable assets to work with moving forward. Pretty cut and dried.

This team would be objectively worse without Zucker than with Zucker. I don't even know how that's a debatable point.

 

[Peat]

To convince me that undoing the Zucker trade would be a good idea, you need something substantially more concrete than "who knows what we could have done?". For a win now team, I'm absolutely taking Zucker over a mystery box of potential "who knows what we could have done?".

Okay. Conor Sheary for 1.5m in the off season. Sheary's been a better forechecker according to Sznajder's stats, has a p/60 a solid .21 higher and his xGF% is about 10% better. The likelihood we're in the same boat with him is pretty good.

What we choose to do with the extra 4m, 1st, and Addison I dunno, but it would probably make the team better than the extra 4m spent on Zucker. Very difficult not to.

Just like it's fairly difficult not to do better for 5.5m and two good assets than we've done this season. Most times you open up that mystery box of "what else could we have got for that", it works out better than Zucker has this season. Fingers crossed he saves the best for the playoffs.

Here's one for all the /60 acolytes:

Of all NHL players who've played at least 40 games this year, only Matthews has a better G/60 than Sprong. That's it.

Good on the kid, wished he'd done it anywhere else.

 

[Coastal Kev]

The Leafs gave up a 1st and 2 4ths for rental Foligno!!! How is that not the same type deal!!! Zucker was the better player when traded and was younger with years of control and they both went for about the same price. Addison is worth more than two 4ths but no more than a 2nd. Considering it was a rental that wasn't having a good year I would say that is a much worse trade. 1st and Vrana was also a huge price for Mantha who like Zucker is in prime but 1st and a much better proven player than Addison in Vrana. I rather have him on my team than Mantha and he is 1 1/2 years younger and a 1st added on? I am sorry I see the same type of trades as the Zucker one every year including this year.

It is sad that we have some of our own fans and I use that term loosely talking bad on the trades that are part of why this team is division Champs. Rutherford built a division championship team for $75 million real money cap. He started this rebuild in the middle of the 2019 season starting with that Pettersson for Sprong deal. Since that deal Rutherford added Pettersson, Marino, Matheson, Ceci, and POJ to the defensman depth and McCann, Tanev, Zucker, Kapanen, Gaudreau, Erod, ZAR, Sceviour, Jankowski, Zohorna, and O'Conner to the forward depth. Without that added youth, skill, and skating to this lineup we are a bottom feeder team. But you guys keep worrying about our first round picks and prospects like Addison and Sprong!

All take this great depth team that we have now. Love the final piece of Carter added to the team. I know Rutherford would of added a big name piece also but Carter was the perfect fit and for a bargain price. Rutherford didn't like trading for players not in their primes but Carter is the right player for the right time. His contract fits perfect for this teams last 2 serious Cup runs.

Let's go Pens!!!

I have never seen someone write so much and say so little.

Salty Sprong would have meshed with Geno......

Fact

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Sometimes, the best move is no move at all.

That's the case with Zucker.

We'd have finished no worse off that year, and we'd have retained 2 valuable assets to work with moving forward. Pretty cut and dried.

Monday morning quarterbacking is pretty easy also. You go for it every year while you have Crosby and Malkin. With Guentzel out for the year and the team still forming well despite all the injuries including only 3 games with both Crosby and Malkin. It would of been a dereliction of duty if nothing was added to that team. They finished with the 7th best record in the NHL despite not having many of their top players for much of the season including big names like Crosby, Malkin, Rust, Guentzel, Dumoulin, and so many more. Zucker was a proven 20+ goal scorer his whole career and still in his prime with years of control. He played the way our team wants to play and seemed like the perfect fit. Looking back on last year's playoff failure and then judging it is useless and plain stupid. Standing pat would of been ridiculous.

Who knows, Zucker might light it up in this year's playoffs and we win the Cup and then that trade looks great. The bottom line is it was a good trade and not all trades work out with a Cup. Only one awarded each year and that makes 30 teams trade additions look like a failure. People trade 1st round picks and more for rentals like Foligno so if they don't win a Cup that turns out pretty bad. 1st and Addison for Zucker was not a bad price and will just have to wait and see if Zucker can help this team to a Cup. I know Addison or that 1st isn't going to while our core has it's best shots.

Keep your day job because your couch potato GM skills suck.

 

[Gurglesons]

Here's one for all the /60 acolytes:

Of all NHL players who've played at least 40 games this year, only Matthews has a better G/60 than Sprong. That's it.

And Lavi is still not committed to him being in their healthy line-up. It's downright bizarre at this point. He's Pirri 2.0.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

I have never seen someone write so much and say so little.

Salty Sprong would have meshed with Geno......

Fact

Opinion, and he could of been had for nothing after Ducks gave up on him. So if the Pens really wanted him they could have had him and added Pettersson for free. I still am not sold on Sprong and don't think he fits our team. I think he would be on the bench and in Sullivan's dog house. Your entitled to your opinion but please don't make laughable comments like it is a fact.

Plus I have been much more right on this team than you and others. I said this team had the makings of a great group this summer and praised the Ceci, Kapanen, and Matheson additions.

Also for all you people that say we should of kept our picks and prospects instead of adding player's like Kessel, Hagelin, Brassard, Zucker, Kapanen, and others. Rutherford has added more prospect aged players to this team since 2019 than all those picks a prospects given up. Pettersson, Marino, POJ, Lee, and Maniscalco on defense and McCann, Kapanen, ZAR, O'Connor, Zohorna, and others as forwards. I think he did a nice balance of going for it each year while also keeping the team young around the core. That is much better than the 90's Pens that let the team get old and the Shero teams that let the team get old around the core.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Monday morning quarterbacking is pretty easy also. You go for it every year while you have Crosby and Malkin. With Guentzel out for the year and the team still forming well despite all the injuries including only 3 games with both Crosby and Malkin. It would of been a dereliction of duty if nothing was added to that team. They finished with the 7th best record in the NHL despite not having many of their top players for much of the season including big names like Crosby, Malkin, Rust, Guentzel, Dumoulin, and so many more. Zucker was a proven 20+ goal scorer his whole career and still in his prime with years of control. He played the way our team wants to play and seemed like the perfect fit. Looking back on last year's playoff failure and then judging it is useless and plain stupid. Standing pat would of been ridiculous.

It's not Monday morning quarterbacking if you call it a problem at the time.

Zucker didn't address any of our biggest needs - he was simply more of the same even if he had worked out, but he hasn't even done that. It was a long-term solution to a short-term problem, and we paid a premium for it even though our asset pool is one of the worst in the league.

Who knows, Zucker might light it up in this year's playoffs and we win the Cup and then that trade looks great. The bottom line is it was a good trade and not all trades work out with a Cup. Only one awarded each year and that makes 30 teams trade additions look like a failure. People trade 1st round picks and more for rentals like Foligno so if they don't win a Cup that turns out pretty bad. 1st and Addison for Zucker was not a bad price and will just have to wait and see if Zucker can help this team to a Cup. I know Addison or that 1st isn't going to while our core has it's best shots.

Yeah, anything "might" happen. But Zucker has been a dud and a bad fit so far, there's no disputing that. Unfortunately we don't judge trades in Imaginationland.

It was not a good trade. It was a bad trade using assets we couldn't afford to lose for a player we didn't need.

I don't know many Pens fans who wouldn't take back that trade right now. The fact that he's expansion draft fodder says everything.