Player Discussion Leon Draisaitl | 19-20 Art Ross, Ted Lindsay & Hart Trophy Winner | Congrats on 500 Career Points!

[FlameChampion]

Another case of insomnia and being bored but thanks for posting this. Of interesting note "The Athletic" holds as many as 47 votes that I counted. Out of 170 in total. Most other publications that get to vote get one. Why on Earth is one publication granted so much voting power to decide these things? I mean I could see it being a specialist publication that focuses on sports specifically getting a few more legitimate votes than 1. But 47? These things, and how they arose should probably be questioned. I don't recall these trophies being named the Art Ross The Athletic trophy.

I mention this as well because a majority of The Athletic voters voted against Leon Draisaitl, and some with inane lists and picks. Deserves to be mentioned that Leon from what I was able to count (hard to count from those tables, Leon got 93 first place votes overall, so overwhelming majority. yet most of the 47 Athletic votes were for somebody else. So we're seeing some selective bias at work with the publication.

ftr from my count 29 The Athletic voters picked somebody other than Leon Draisaitl. Only 18 of their writers picked Leon.

So lets sort out some numbers;

Leon obtained 38% first place ballots from The Athletic voters.

Leon obtained 55% first place ballots overall, among all voters.

Leon Draisaitl obtained a whopping 61% of first place votes from everybody but The Athletic voters.


What this means is statistically significant confirmed bias of one publication, and that could have swayed voting somewhat if Leon did not have considerable support from the rest of sports journalists and sports media.

It is a strange that a relatively unknown entity a few years ago, now how so many votes and influence on things on such a large scale. Makes you wonder how these things come along. It seems really suspect to me.

 

[Drivesaitl]

This is a really interesting question. Especially when you wouldn't think of the Athletic as wielding more power than say SI, ESPN or any of the Canadian networks (when it comes to hockey).

But... aren't the Athletic writers mostly freelance? So more likely they have other affiliations with more local rags?

A lot of the affiliations are just with blogs. The Edmonton beat writers for The Athletic have historically just been past bloggers. Even one who was a past poster on this board.

Dom in question, who people have been citing did write for the Hockey News before, but no longer. The Athletic seems to have just hired most of their writing talent off the internet. Which raises some flags too as a legit source of news.

I dunno. I see this as The Athletic shoehorning credibility. I wonder how many other publications or sports wags are asking and having the same concerns as I am. I mean I don't like Jim Matheson but he gets one vote, and the Edmonton Journal get one vote. Matheson has been in the business for +40yrs. The EJ for over a century. Yet some upstart rag starts cornering the market on PHWA voting. Seems silly.

 

[FlameChampion]

I honestly do understand the opinion that if this was purely an MVP award in the purest sense (how much worse would your team be without elite player X), then Panarin probably should have won it. But, then McDavid should have won in 2018, and McDavid should have also won the Calder in 2016 if it was really an award for who the best rookie was, not just who was good along with luck to be getting fed by Kane and no injuries.

This award is payback as a result of consistency I suppose. I'm kinda shocked that the consistency worked in our favour. The Hart has been awarded for who had the most outstanding season with the caveat that their team is in or near a playoff spot. Honestly, shame on the people breaking precedent and giving Panarin 1st place votes

I dunno for me personally, Draisaitl has such a huge point gap over all the other forwards that I dont see how another forward could of beat him considering the way the trophy has been given out in the past (basically best offensive player whos team made the playoffs). If anything, Hellebuyck has the best case against Draisaitl imo, based on the "MVP for his team". The voting for the trophy doesnt make much sense to me though.

 

[oobga]

I dunno for me personally, Draisaitl has such a huge point gap over all the other forwards that I dont see how another forward could of beat him considering the way the trophy has been given out in the past (basically best offensive player whos team made the playoffs). If anything, Hellebuyck should of won, based on the "MVP for his team". The voting for the trophy doesnt make much sense to me though.

Good point. Forgot about Hellebuyck. Actually, if the MVP award was a pure "MVP" thing, then I think a goalie should win it every single year. So many teams would be nothing without their #1 goalie. But yeah, it's not a pure MVP award.

 

[Del Preston]

I need a photo with him posing in front of all three trophies so I can post it everywhere on HF

Post 158. I put his head on Connor's body.

 

[Faelko]

How did he get it in the first place? He's had paid gigs at Hockey News and now at the AThletic, and he's 25yrs old, has no hockey background whatsoever, is just a rube with an opinion like anybody else. but hur dur, I got some advanced stats here, "lineup and pay me"

its absolutely laughable that these wannabe statisticians (he attended journalism school) are immediately granted some kind of hockey cred on the sheer basis of some algorithm. Doesn't have to be substantiated. the results don't have to be credible, they don't even have to be plausible.

But the people that lineup to pay for junk like this, or that have given it their attention and authority for decades, are equally at fault for a lack of critical thinking in what they accept.

The worst is that this is paid news. People pay for doofuses to write crap like this.

Based on the twitter replies Dom just trolls is shit just to get hits. Same kind of trolls as "evolving wild" who are supporting him in the twitter feed, lol.

I had honestly never even heard this guys name before until today, guess I know why now...haha

 

[Frank the Tank]

It is a strange that a relatively unknown entity a few years ago, now how so many votes and influence on things on such a large scale. Makes you wonder how these things come along. It seems really suspect to me.

I don't think it's suspect; it's just the reality of the hockey media in modern times. With the changing media landscape many prominent local newspapers could no longer afford their more tenured, higher profile sportswriters and let them go. The Athletic swooped in and grabbed almost all of them, placing them behind a paywall to drive revenue.

 

[KlefDown]

Post 158. I put his head on Connor's body.

this is amazing. hope you don't mind but I also tweeted it. probably won't go viral because I have like 2 followers

 

[oobga]

TheAthletic must be hurting right now. I think leaving such obvious names off ballots and advertising your position with your explanation behind a paywall tells you all you need to know about the intentions here.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I don't think it's suspect; it's just the reality of the hockey media in modern times. With the changing media landscape many prominent local newspapers could no longer afford their more tenured, higher profile sportswriters and let them go. The Athletic swooped in and grabbed almost all of them, placing them behind a paywall to drive revenue.

Not exactly the case. Both the Edmonton Sun and Edmonton Journal have multiple longstanding Oilers beat writers. Collectively however only one got to vote. Not sure why that is. Most of the Athletic writers appear to be previous unknowns, as I've gathered a good sum of them being past bloggers. Which well known writers were scooped up. I read a lot of newspapers and have for 50yrs. The vast majority of the list of The Athletic writers is unknown to me.

 

[bucks_oil]

A lot of the affiliations are just with blogs. The Edmonton beat writers for The Athletic have historically just been past bloggers. Even one who was a past poster on this board.

Dom in question, who people have been citing did write for the Hockey News before, but no longer. The Athletic seems to have just hired most of their writing talent off the internet. Which raises some flags too as a legit source of news.

I dunno. I see this as The Athletic shoehorning credibility. I wonder how many other publications or sports wags are asking and having the same concerns as I am. I mean I don't like Jim Matheson but he gets one vote, and the Edmonton Journal get one vote. Matheson has been in the business for +40yrs. The EJ for over a century. Yet some upstart rag starts cornering the market on PHWA voting. Seems silly.

It's an interesting point.

On the flip side, these writers affiliated (loosely) with the Athletic are certainly not voting as a block. Your point about the differentiation in Drai voting could easily be explained by "new skool" vs "old skool" where the Athletic tends to have more writers who value advanced stats... and we all know that Drai's advanced stats in the defensive end are not so stellar.

 

[Drivesaitl]

TheAthletic must be hurting right now. I think leaving such obvious names off ballots and advertising your position with your explanation behind a paywall tells you all you need to know about the intentions here.

Thats exactly it. Its really poor form. We're trolling this opinion that is miles away from the consensus, we're even leaving Draisaitl off some of our more controversial ballots, but please subscribe to us to see how inane we are on other topics..

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Not exactly the case. Both the Edmonton Sun and Edmonton Journal have multiple longstanding Oilers beat writers. Collectively however only one got to vote. Not sure why that is. Most of the Athletic writers appear to be previous unknowns, as I've gathered a good sum of them being past bloggers. Which well known writers were scooped up. I read a lot of newspapers and have for 50yrs. The vast majority of the list of The Athletic writers is unknown to me.

Full credit for The Athletic finding a niche in a free information world. I haven't read it. There seems to be a few quality former beat writer/journalists who I'd be interested in reading but goofiness like this NHL Award voting comes up and it seems like a smarter than everyone else vibe permeates from it and credibility takes a hit. All you need to know is to compare ballots with a career NHL hockey executive like Brian Burke's to gage legitimacy of the content provider(s). Sometime common sense ain't so common.

Taking your analytical stand is fine but it shouldn't be tied with the privilege of voting for NHL Awards.

 

[Frank the Tank]

Not exactly the case. Both the Edmonton Sun and Edmonton Journal have multiple longstanding Oilers beat writers. Collectively however only one got to vote. Not sure why that is. Most of the Athletic writers appear to be previous unknowns, as I've gathered a good sum of them being past bloggers. Which well known writers were scooped up. I read a lot of newspapers and have for 50yrs. The vast majority of the list of The Athletic writers is unknown to me.

I remember their launch announcement a few seasons back included Russo, Duhatschek, Portzline, etc...

Welcome to The Athletic NHL hub: Start the season right with a subscription to our hockey coverage.

Their expansion into other markets, scooping up sportswriters, is documented on their Wikipedia page:

The Athletic - Wikipedia

Edit: Perhaps they're gaming the system, which puts them on par with everything else in the world we now live (I'm having a cynical day).

 

[Maverick41]

I actually like The Athletic. Some of their writers are terrible, others are meh and then they have some really good ones. And they cover most of the sports that interest me and as far as I am concerned they do it for a fair price.

But I do disagree with the votes of several of the 48 writers affiliated with The Athletic that got to vote here, eventhough I would have been fine with any of Leon, MacKinnon or Panarin winning, at least I would not have been too upset if it had not been Leon.

In case anyone's interested this is how the Hart would have turned out if only the guys from The Athletic got to vote.

Player	1st Place	2nd Place	3rd Place	4th Place	5th Place	Points
Nathan MacKinnon	18	16	11	2	0	353
Leon Draisaitl	18	10	8	7	3	314
Artemi Panarin	11	12	16	3	4	287
Connor Hellebuyck	1	6	8	8	7	123
David Pastrnak	0	4	1	17	10	94
Connor McDavid	0	0	3	6	9	42
Roman Josi	0	0	1	2	1	12
Jack Eichel	0	0	0	1	2	5
Nikita Kucherov	0	0	0	1	2	5
Auston Matthews	0	0	0	0	3	3
Evgeni Malkin	0	0	0	0	3	3
Brad Marchand	0	0	0	1	0	3
Elias Pettersson	0	0	0	0	2	2
Alexander Ovechkin	0	0	0	0	1	1
John Carlson	0	0	0	0	1	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Yeah, I wasn't happy about his contract, lol. I was comparing it to Pasta's contract and was pissed that we signed him for so much. Loved the player, thought the contract was an overpay due to one season where he lit things up playing with 97. So yeah about that...... 8.5 is a STEAL for what Drai is, and as much crap as Chia gets on here (deservedly so) he should get full marks for that contract. Imagine how ridiculously good it would have been if the cap kept rising these next 3-4 years like it would he if COVID wasn't a thing?

He probably gets damn close to 50 goals again and runs away with the scoring lead. Like, the level he's brought his game to astounds me. What a player.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

I actually like The Athletic. Some of their writers are terrible, others are meh and then they have some really good ones. And they cover most of the sports that interest me and as far as I am concerned they do it for a fair price.

But I do disagree with the votes of several of the 48 writers affiliated with The Athletic that got to vote here, eventhough I would have been fine with any of Leon, MacKinnon or Panarin winning, at least I would not have been too upset if it had not been Leon.

In case anyone's interested this is how the Hart would have turned out if only the guys from The Athletic got to vote.

Player	1st Place	2nd Place	3rd Place	4th Place	5th Place	Points
Nathan MacKinnon	18	16	11	2	0	353
Leon Draisaitl	18	10	8	7	3	314
Artemi Panarin	11	12	16	3	4	287
Connor Hellebuyck	1	6	8	8	7	123
David Pastrnak	0	4	1	17	10	94
Connor McDavid	0	0	3	6	9	42
Roman Josi	0	0	1	2	1	12
Jack Eichel	0	0	0	1	2	5
Nikita Kucherov	0	0	0	1	2	5
Auston Matthews	0	0	0	0	3	3
Evgeni Malkin	0	0	0	0	3	3
Brad Marchand	0	0	0	1	0	3
Elias Pettersson	0	0	0	0	2	2
Alexander Ovechkin	0	0	0	0	1	1
John Carlson	0	0	0	0	1	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Trash right there.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I actually like The Athletic. Some of their writers are terrible, others are meh and then they have some really good ones. And they cover most of the sports that interest me and as far as I am concerned they do it for a fair price.

But I do disagree with the votes of several of the 48 writers affiliated with The Athletic that got to vote here, eventhough I would have been fine with any of Leon, MacKinnon or Panarin winning, at least I would not have been too upset if it had not been Leon.

In case anyone's interested this is how the Hart would have turned out if only the guys from The Athletic got to vote.

Player	1st Place	2nd Place	3rd Place	4th Place	5th Place	Points
Nathan MacKinnon	18	16	11	2	0	353
Leon Draisaitl	18	10	8	7	3	314
Artemi Panarin	11	12	16	3	4	287
Connor Hellebuyck	1	6	8	8	7	123
David Pastrnak	0	4	1	17	10	94
Connor McDavid	0	0	3	6	9	42
Roman Josi	0	0	1	2	1	12
Jack Eichel	0	0	0	1	2	5
Nikita Kucherov	0	0	0	1	2	5
Auston Matthews	0	0	0	0	3	3
Evgeni Malkin	0	0	0	0	3	3
Brad Marchand	0	0	0	1	0	3
Elias Pettersson	0	0	0	0	2	2
Alexander Ovechkin	0	0	0	0	1	1
John Carlson	0	0	0	0	1	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Athletic have some good writers, but the majority of them are glorified bloggers who've never played the sport

 

[Frank the Tank]

I mean there always is going to be a contrarian like Stan Fischler or Dick Beddoes

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

I mean there always is going to be a contrarian like Stan Fischler or Dick Beddoes

Him bringing up \Malone is the height of nonsense. "Look this guy scored a bunch in the pre-war period and didn't make that much, and things are basically the same, right/"

 

[Frank the Tank]

Him bringing up \Malone is the height of nonsense. "Look this guy scored a bunch in the pre-war period and didn't make that much, and things are basically the same, right/"

The point remains that Beddoes was a professional jimmy rustler and knew that slagging Gretzky was going to focus an even bigger spotlight on him. It's the early '80s equivalent of driving clicks to his website.

 

[Aerchon]

How is the Norris decided? How did Carlson not win?

It hasn't been talked about much but the Norris is mostly awarded by points and Carlson had Yosi beat by 10 and was on a record setting pace for much the year.

Sure Yosi was maybe a bit better defensively this year but imo that's a huge upset for the Norris.

I also think the Masterson? trophy should have been McDavids.

 

[FlameChampion]

How is the Norris decided? How did Carlson not win?

It hasn't been talked about much but the Norris is mostly awarded by points and Carlson had Yosi beat by 10 and was on a record setting pace for much the year.

Sure Yosi was maybe a bit better defensively this year but imo that's a huge upset for the Norris.

I also think the Masterson? trophy should have been McDavids.

Just seems like for years ... best offensive dman usually gets the Norris. Then all of a sudden the voters try to outsmart themselves and get on this agenda to make someone else win. Josi is more of an offensive dman than a defensive dman. Is he really better defensively than Carlson? If he is, I dont think its that by that much. On the other side I think its fairly obvious that Hedman is probably the best overall defensemen but he didnt win either.

Good for Josi though. He is a great defenseman. I have no gripes really but the way voting is done, it doesnt make a ton of sense. I dont think the media should be voting on these trophies, most of the guys dont even watch the games (which is understandable even).

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I mean there always is going to be a contrarian like Stan Fischler or Dick Beddoes

Gawd I miss the legendary Dickie Dunn (per attachment).

Definitely a different world from columnists like Beddoes, Red Fisher and Stan Fischler. When information had gatekeepers their opinions were as large as life as they were. Beddoes's opinion on Gretzky didn't age well in the moment and most certainly not today in an era of $100 million hockey players. Gzowski's book, "The Game of Our Lives" is required reading for walking in the early footsteps of the Oil dynasty that was to become.

Quibbling a bit but a columnist's loud opinion making making is a bit different than claiming your 'science' can validate leading to a completely harebrained conclusion.

EDIT: With the bias' that are inevitably revealed through the voting process, I think the writers should be limited to awards like the Lady Byng and Masterton. Leave the big hardware decision making to hockey executives.

 

[Oilers 322]

This is worth repeating. I mean his one-timer has got to be top 3 in the league right now and it isn't because of McD. He is finishing at an unbelievable rate even if the goalie manages to get across it often goes through him (on power alone) or is perfectly placed bar down. It's his shot selection (just hit the net vs place it and take some off for accuracy vs pound it) shows that sixth sense of reading the play and reacting in real time to what the goalie is doing. That's what makes him so elite.

Yup. I dont think Drai knows how good his one timer is. He only seems to use it when it’s an open net - one of the reason why his SH% is so high. I want to see him try and blast it by the goalie more often, especially on the power play.