Lemieux's top scoring seasons in perspective

Dark Shadows

Registered User
Jun 19, 2007
7,986
15
Canada
www.robotnik.com
You can't help but argue that Lemieux is more talented than Gretzky

If you put Lemieux on the Oilers instead of Gretzky you would see better numbers.

I would argue that playing with Gretzky turned several of those players into the players the became simply from learning from him and adapting.

Much like Jagr became more than he would have by learning from Lemieux.

Heck. Lemieux himself only broke out huge after playing with Gretz in the Canada cup and learned what it took to be the best and be a winner.
 

Dark Shadows

Registered User
Jun 19, 2007
7,986
15
Canada
www.robotnik.com
Yes, I know he was there for 59 games. If he had played an entire season with Gretzky, I would think Gretzky could have reached 200.

Actually, we have seen what Gretzky could do withough Coffey when Coffey was injured.

 

Infinite Vision*

Guest
The year Coffey was traded, Gretzky had his first big dip from 200 points in years with a "mere" 183 points. I would have to think he would have had 200 with Coffey (again, Gretzky was the best ever at explointing the talents of great players around him). Remarkably, Gretzky was on pace to beat Lemieux again the following year before his injury with a ridiculous post-Coffey total of 186 points (had he played the entire season with a season leading 2.33 PPG average). Again, Gretzky would have had 200 points that season had he played with Coffey. The reason Gretzky dipped even futher to 168 points the following year playing for LA is not because of age or being past his peak, but because he no longer could exploit the talents of the great teammates he had in Edmonton. (Again, Gretzky could score more points than Lemieux with great teammates, but less points than Lemieux with poor ones.) Some people would say this makes Lemieux better than Gretzky, as it showes Lemieux doesn't need great players to score as much as Gretzky did. But if we accept hockey as a team game (and by definition we must) -- and the object is to win -- the best player ever has to be the guy who could do the most with the best team, not the guy who could do the most with an average team. And despite the fact that Lemieux could do amazing things with great teammates as well (see Coffey), he just couldn't (and didn't) produce quite as much as Gretzky could (and did). And that's the deciding factor for me as to who was the better player.

If you look at Gretzky's stats in L.A they compare favourably to Lemieux's few years before Coffey arrived. Likewise, Lemieux's stats after Coffey arrived compare favourably to Gretzky's years before Coffey left.

What I can conclude from this is, having good linemates helps you, whether you're Lemieux, Gretzky, or anyone for that matter. I think this opinion of yours is a myth, as well as the opinion of those who say linemates don't matter at all when it comes to the production of these two.

What can we conclude from the post above? I'd say nothing, the sample sizes are too small. It's very clear to me that each of them were 200-220 point players on stacked teams, and 160-170 on crap teams.
 

tazzy19

Registered User
Mar 27, 2008
2,268
116
If you look at Gretzky's stats in L.A they compare favourably to Lemieux's few years before Coffey arrived. Likewise, Lemieux's stats after Coffey arrived compare favourably to Gretzky's years before Coffey left.

What I can conclude from this is, having good linemates helps you, whether you're Lemieux, Gretzky, or anyone for that matter. I think this opinion of yours is a myth, as well as the opinion of those who say linemates don't matter at all when it comes to the production of these two.

What can we conclude from the post above? I'd say nothing, the sample sizes are too small. It's very clear to me that each of them were 200-220 point players on stacked teams, and 160-170 on crap teams.
Which opinion of mine do you mean exactly? Aren't we saying the same thing? Of course having good linemates helps Lemieux as well as Gretzky. All I'm saying is that Gretzky could get more out of great linemates than Lemieux could. Paul Coffey is an exceptional case, as he brought a specific dimension to both Gretzky's and Lemieux's offense. It's just that Gretzky may have benefited more than Lemieux (from Paul Coffey), as Lemieux relied more on his own individual talents to gain his points than did Gretzky (as expemplified by Lemieux's monster numbers post Coffey, and Gretzky's points decrease post Coffey). In the end, it's a tough call, but I still feel that Gretzky just edges out Lemieux in points scored playing with great players, as Lemieux never has really proved it otherwise, always being just edged out...though it's very, very close (hence the debate).
 

edog37

Registered User
Jan 21, 2007
6,084
1,632
Pittsburgh
In individual talent sure but Gretzky's vision, art of deception and ability to make the players around him better was still a notch above Mario's.

Lemieux turned Rob Brown & Warren Young into 40 goal scorers. Lemieux played with lesser talents for far longer than Gretzky did....
 

edog37

Registered User
Jan 21, 2007
6,084
1,632
Pittsburgh
I would argue that playing with Gretzky turned several of those players into the players the became simply from learning from him and adapting.

Much like Jagr became more than he would have by learning from Lemieux.

Heck. Lemieux himself only broke out huge after playing with Gretz in the Canada cup and learned what it took to be the best and be a winner.

no one in Pittsburgh would dispute the last statement about Lemieux's game elevating after the '87 Canada Cup. However, I believe his overall level of play elevated above Gretzky's from that point onward....
 

Irato99

Registered User
Nov 8, 2010
316
13
Lemieux turned Rob Brown & Warren Young into 40 goal scorers. Lemieux played with lesser talents for far longer than Gretzky did....

Gretzky did the same for Blair MacDonald and Mike Krushelnyski.
 

cenas*

Guest
mario's 'adjusted points per game' for the 1995-96 season is actually better than any of gretzky's seasons.

But lets not forget there were over 10 players with over 100 points that year. He beat Jagr only by about 12 points too, not a very impressive margin. In 96-97 he beat Selänne by 13 points.
 

Irato99

Registered User
Nov 8, 2010
316
13
Power plays their teams received for each of those season:
EDM 81-82- 341
EDM 84-85- 293
EDM 85-86- 295
PITT 88-89- 491
PITT 92-93- 440

Mario always loved the powerplay.

Lemieux : 690 goals
- EV : 59% (405)
- PP : 34% (236)
- SH : 7% (49)

Gretzky : 894 goals
- EV : 69% (617)
- PP : 23% (204)
- SH : 8% (73)
 

tazzy19

Registered User
Mar 27, 2008
2,268
116
no one in Pittsburgh would dispute the last statement about Lemieux's game elevating after the '87 Canada Cup. However, I believe his overall level of play elevated above Gretzky's from that point onward....
Really? Gretzky had a higher PPG average after the 87 Canada Cup during the 87-88 regular season, and scored a ridiculous 43 points and won the Conn Smythe Trophy in the 88 playoffs in route to his 4th Stanley Cup. If he had not been injured during the 87-88 regular season, he would have won the Art Ross easily and his 9th Hart Trophy in a row (which would have given him 10 straight the following year). It wasn't until he lost the top end talent around him after his trade to LA that his points declined. Futher, Lemieux never reached the heights Gretzky did when he got Coffey and Jagr, etc. I can't imagine how many points a prime Gretzky would have scored with Jagr (who was way more talented than Kurri). Again, Gretzky was simply better at exploiting top end talent on his own team than Lemieux was. And although Lemieux may have been better at scoring without top end talent, I would still rather have the guy who scores the most with the best players than the guy who scores the most with lesser players.
 

Irato99

Registered User
Nov 8, 2010
316
13
Really? Gretzky had a higher PPG average after the 87 Canada Cup during the 87-88 regular season, and scored a ridiculous 43 points and won the Conn Smythe Trophy in the 88 playoffs in route to his 4th Stanley Cup. If he had not been injured during the 87-88 regular season, he would have won the Art Ross easily and his 9th Hart Trophy in a row (which would have given him 10 straight the following year). It wasn't until he lost the top end talent around him after his trade to LA that his points declined. Futher, Lemieux never reached the heights Gretzky did when he got Coffey and Jagr, etc. I can't imagine how many points a prime Gretzky would have scored with Jagr (who was way more talented than Kurri). Again, Gretzky was simply better at exploiting top end talent on his own team than Lemieux was. And although Lemieux may have been better at scoring without top end talent, I would still rather have the guy who scores the most with the best players than the guy who scores the most with lesser players.

I really disagree with that statement, look at both players when they began their careers in the NHL, they both were in a team that lacked talent (although Mario had some proven 50 goals scorers with him), and Gretzky outscored Lemieux quite easily.
 

tazzy19

Registered User
Mar 27, 2008
2,268
116
I really disagree with that statement, look at both players when they began their careers in the NHL, they both were in a team that lacked talent (although Mario had some proven 50 goals scorers with him), and Gretzky outscored Lemieux quite easily.
Yes, but this was before Gretzky and Lemieux entered their prime. If we are to examine their performances after they hit their prime, it appears Gretzky could score more with great players than Lemieux could, but not as much as Lemieux could without great players. I believe Gretzky was still in his prime until he was around 30 years old in 1990-1991, but his point production declined to around 160-170 points per year instead of 200+ without having great players to play with. Lemieux on the other hand still scored 199 points in 1989 without too much talent (Paul Coffey notwithstanding).

(There again, Gretzky could have likely scored 200+ points with the same 1989 Paul Coffey had Coffey been playing for LA.....so in the end you might be right. These two players were just so close in overall offensive ability, it's ridiculously tight. In the end, I'll still take the guy with 61 NHL records, 4 Stanley Cups, and relatively few injuries though.)
 

Irato99

Registered User
Nov 8, 2010
316
13
Yes, but this was before Gretzky and Lemieux entered their prime. If we are to examine their performances after they hit their prime, it appears Gretzky could score more with great players than Lemieux could, but not as much as Lemieux could without great players. I believe Gretzky was still in his prime until he was around 30 years old in 1990-1991, but his point production declined to around 160-170 points per year instead of 200+ without having great players to play with. Lemieux on the other hand still scored 199 points in 1989 without too much talent (Paul Coffey notwithstanding).

(There again, Gretzky could have likely scored 200+ points with the same 1989 Paul Coffey had Coffey been playing for LA.....so in the end you might be right. These two players were just so close in overall offensive ability, it's ridiculously tight. In the end, I'll still take the guy with 61 NHL records, 4 Stanley Cups, and relatively few injuries though.)

Do you have other examples of Lemieux having a season like that without talent around him? And I don't think he lacked talent around him in 89 anyway, as mentioned earlier in this post, Rob Brown sure had offensive skills.
If you look closely at the stats, Gretzky's first significant drop in scoring occurred in 86, 2 years before the trade.
 

tazzy19

Registered User
Mar 27, 2008
2,268
116
Do you have other examples of Lemieux having a season like that without talent around him? And I don't think he lacked talent around him in 89 anyway, as mentioned earlier in this post, Rob Brown sure had offensive skills.
If you look closely at the stats, Gretzky's first significant drop in scoring occurred in 86, 2 years before the trade.
But in 86, he scored 215 points ;) I think you mean 86-87, when Gretzky scored "only" 183 points in 79 games. But the reason for this, I believe, is that Paul Coffey only played in 59 games that year. Had Coffey and Gretzky played an extra 31 games together, Gretzky likely would have scored 200 points once again. (Remember, it wasn't just Coffey; it was the pairing of Coffey with Kurri playing with Gretzky that really created a ripple effect on Gretzky's totals...almost exponentially.)

And you're right...I can't think of any real good examples of Lemieux having that kind of a season without having talent around him.
 

Irato99

Registered User
Nov 8, 2010
316
13
But in 86, he scored 215 points ;) I think you mean 86-87, when Gretzky scored "only" 183 points in 79 games. But the reason for this, I believe, is that Paul Coffey only played in 59 games that year. Had Coffey and Gretzky played an extra 31 games together, Gretzky likely would have scored 200 points once again. (Remember, it wasn't just Coffey; it was the pairing of Coffey with Kurri playing with Gretzky that really created a ripple effect on Gretzky's totals...almost exponentially.)

And you're right...I can't think of any real good examples of Lemieux having that kind of a season without having talent around him.

You should change 31 for 21, just a little math mistake...

You maybe right about the effect of Coffey, but the thing is that scoring went down a little in the whole NHL for whatever reason, despite his drop in production Gretzky still won the scoring title by 75 pts.
 

Rhiessan71

Just a Fool
Feb 17, 2003
11,618
24
Guelph, Ont
Visit site
But in 86, he scored 215 points ;) I think you mean 86-87, when Gretzky scored "only" 183 points in 79 games. But the reason for this, I believe, is that Paul Coffey only played in 59 games that year. Had Coffey and Gretzky played an extra 31 games together, Gretzky likely would have scored 200 points once again. (Remember, it wasn't just Coffey; it was the pairing of Coffey with Kurri playing with Gretzky that really created a ripple effect on Gretzky's totals...almost exponentially.)

And you're right...I can't think of any real good examples of Lemieux having that kind of a season without having talent around him.

Maybe Coffey only playing 59 games might be worth a few points off Wayne's totals but by far the bigger reason was the 3 games he missed that year.
It's not that those 3 games cost him all those points but when he came back, he definitely wasn't 100% for a couple of weeks after.
Gretzky, like Orr, absolutely detested missing any games and pretty much if they could skate, they played.
We know this shaved many, many years off of Orr's career and it's a good bet it cost Gretzky a year or two as well.
 

Irato99

Registered User
Nov 8, 2010
316
13
Maybe Coffey only playing 59 games might be worth a few points off Wayne's totals but by far the bigger reason was the 3 games he missed that year.
It's not that those 3 games cost him all those points but when he came back, he definitely wasn't 100% for a couple of weeks after.
Gretzky, like Orr, absolutely detested missing any games and pretty much if they could skate, they played.
We know this shaved many, many years off of Orr's career and it's a good bet it cost Gretzky a year or two as well.

Sorry but he only missed one game that season, the last game of the regular season, and he didn't miss a game in the playoffs. Probably the season after that hurt him more.
 

Peter9

Registered User
Apr 1, 2008
412
3
Los Angeles, USA
I've seen all the post-war NHL greats, but I'm not going to get caught up in a who's better debate between Gretzky and Lemieux, two of the very best athletes of the last century. Still, I will say that I think Lemieux was the more dazzling player, the more entertaining player to watch.

What brings this to mind is an exchange I had perhaps a decade ago with an English guy, who didn't know anything about ice hockey when he began watching on one of the U.K.'s sports channels. Watching Lemieux had made him a hockey fan. In fact, he thought Lemieux was the most talented athlete he had ever seen; Lemieux often simply took his breath away.

Both Lemieux and Gretzky had fabulous skills, but for pure entertainment value I would pick Lemieux. Take note that I am not saying Lemieux was the more skilled player. Nor am I even saying that this entertainment factor is one that should carry much weight in determining which players were greater than other players, although I do think that it often is given sub rosa weight and perhaps even more weight than it should in these eternal debates over comparative greatness.

I've seen similar discussions about the entertainment factor in comparisons of other players over the past 60 years. When Red Kelly and Doug Harvey were the two best defensemen in the NHL, the sportswriters at first thought Kelly was the better of the two. He was the more dazzling because he often rushed with the puck and scored more goals. But gradually the writers came around to Harvey as the better player. They noted that Harvey was capable of rushing with the puck if he wanted, but chose not to do so because it was unnecessary on a Canadiens team loaded with talent up front. Why take the effort and risk involved in rushing with the puck when it was unnecessary? Harvey played a much more laid-back style, controlling the game in much more subtle and perhaps more skilled ways.

At the same time the Howe-Richard debate was raging. Noted Canadian sports journalist Andy O'Brien wrote a biography of Richard soon after his retirement in 1960, which could not have anticipated Howe's remarkable longevity or the career goals and assists levels he reached. In fact, as I recall, O'Brien vastly underestimated how long Howe would continue to play. At that point, O'Brien came down on Richard's side in the debate largely because Richard was the far more entertaining player to watch. Richard was dashing; he dazzled, he excited. Howe played a much more measured game, one factor that might partially account for his longevity. O'Brien wrote that if you had two big hockey stadiums next door to each other with identical teams except that one featured Richard and the other Howe, the one that would be filled night after night would be the one where Richard played.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad