Lemieux scoring 5 different ways - what are the odds?

[Hynh]

Your whacked. It was an amazing feat.

It's an amazing feat but the fact that it was Mario Lemieux who did is what makes it legendary. It's fitting for a player of Lemieux's stature to have such a rare achievement to call his own. If someone like Grabner managed to do it, it would be diminished.

 

[sr edler]

Pavel Bure never scored 5 goals in an NHL game but he did in the 1998 Olympics semi-final against Finland. 1st goal was on the PP, 2nd goal ES. 3rd goal was also scored ES but the goal happened (on a breakaway) because of Bure's work on the PK pinching the Finnish D. Teammate German Titov had just come on the ice from the penalty box and trailed/followed Bure on the breakaway. So while it wasn't a SH goal technically, it was practically. 4th goal was ES, then he scored an empty netter. So 3 out of 5 (PP, ES, EN), and close to 4 of 5 (SH) on the "Titov goal".

I think Bure would have been a good candidate to match this feat since he played regularly on the PK all through his career and also scored a lot on the PK (in relation to most other players), and he also has the NHL record for most penalty shot goals with 7. He also scored quite a bunch of empty netters (I think 9 alone in a single season, @quoipourquoi ). And he also appeared regularly on the PP.

 

[LeHab]

The empty net goal shouldn't have counted since the game ended.

Empty net goals shouldn't be considered as this not a unique way of scoring. You have to be already in a state of (ES, PP or SH) to score an empty netter.

 

[Tweed]

Empty net goals shouldn't be considered as this not a unique way of scoring. You have to be already in a state of (ES, PP or SH) to score an empty netter.

Same logic applies to a Penalty Shot.

It really begs the question... why do they denote "(EN)" on the scoresheet, and keep track of and list EN goals as a basic and common statistic... as though we view them diffeently from a regular goal?

Hmmm... I'm trying to think of other ways in which we can diminish his achievement. I'd hate to have to acknowledge this feat for what it was... "5 different goals, each scored in different player deployment configurations based on different same-game situations."

 

[ES]

Same logic applies to a Penalty Shot.

It really begs the question... why do they denote "(EN)" on the scoresheet, and keep track of and list EN goals as a basic and common statistic... as though we view them diffeently from a regular goal?

Hmmm... I'm trying to think of other ways in which we can diminish his achievement. I'd hate to have to acknowledge this feat for what it was... "5 different goals, each scored in different player deployment configurations based on different same-game situations."

I think EN goals are noted mainly because of goalies and not skaters. The game ended 4-2 with 4th goal of winning team being EN goal - you know that losing goaltender allowed three goals, not four.

 

[Jacob]

I think it's kind of a silly "record". I mean you have to be a hell of a player to score 5 goals in any game but beyond that it's almost pure luck in how some of the goals happened.. if there's no infraction that leads to a penalty shot but he scores on the breakaway anyway, it's not a "record" but is it any less impressive?

And ENers are never that impressive. What if instead of an ENer it was another shorty, no "record" but more difficult to achieve (IMO).

I don't know how many times guys like Lemieux and Gretzky scored 5 in a game in their careers but 5 different ways was certainly way more likely to happen to one of them than anyone else combined.

 

[LeHab]

Same logic applies to a Penalty Shot.

It really begs the question... why do they denote "(EN)" on the scoresheet, and keep track of and list EN goals as a basic and common statistic... as though we view them diffeently from a regular goal?

Hmmm... I'm trying to think of other ways in which we can diminish his achievement. I'd hate to have to acknowledge this feat for what it was... "5 different goals, each scored in different player deployment configurations based on different same-game situations."

This isn't about diminishing his achievement. Scoring 5 goals is impressive no matter what. However we have to consider uniqueness otherwise there are many other possible configurations. Delayed penalty goals, unassisted or assisted goals, shootouts (not available back then)...

Would an EN goal on (PP or SH) be considered two for one? If not, which one does it count as?

 

[Tweed]

This isn't about diminishing his achievement. Scoring 5 goals is impressive no matter what. However we have to consider uniqueness otherwise there are many other possible configurations. Delayed penalty goals, unassisted or assisted goals, shootouts (not available back then)...

Would an EN goal on (PP or SH) be considered two for one? If not, which one does it count as?

Those examples you provided, would be different feats. I think you're over-thinking this whole thing. It's just a fun little fact, not a record, not something people are aiming for, probably not even something somebody could do on purpose. It's just 5 different goals, in 5 different ways, by 1 guy in 1 game. It's neat. It's almost impossible, given the rarity of a single game having all 5 of those different situations occur. And it takes a guy who scores a lot of goals to just happen to be in a game that features those circumstances.

 

[Realgud]

Probably the most meaningless "record" in hockey history. Just call it as it is: a 5 goal game.

 

[slybel]

Probably the most meaningless "record" in hockey history. Just call it as it is: a 5 goal game.

Just like Martin Brodeur having a GWg? Meaningless sure, but a feat on it's own.

 

[puckpilot]

This is like hitting for the cycle in baseball. Ask a baseball fan if the cycle is significant or not.

Difference is 300 plus players have hit for the cycle and only one has ever done this feat.

 

[TNT87]

I remember listening to this game on the radio at my grandparents. Great memory and achievement.

 

[jj cale]

I don't look at it as a record as such, just that it is something that has been only done once since the nhls inception. When you think of it that way it comes across as pretty remarkable.

You would think at least one other guy would have done it by now,I mean God,how many games in history have been played up to this point and add to it all the great players who have played in them across time and yet he's the only guy to have ever done it.

I think that says something.

 

[sr edler]

I think it's kind of a silly "record". I mean you have to be a hell of a player to score 5 goals in any game but beyond that it's almost pure luck in how some of the goals happened.. if there's no infraction that leads to a penalty shot but he scores on the breakaway anyway, it's not a "record" but is it any less impressive?

And ENers are never that impressive. What if instead of an ENer it was another shorty, no "record" but more difficult to achieve (IMO).

I don't know how many times guys like Lemieux and Gretzky scored 5 in a game in their careers but 5 different ways was certainly way more likely to happen to one of them than anyone else combined.

Both SH goals and EN goals (most often, for EN goals) are scored in a short handed situation and not all players are trusted by their coaches to play in such situations, like defending leads in the dying minutes of a game. Dino Ciccarelli, for instance, had 1 SH goal and 1 SH assist in 1232 NHL games, which tells something about his usage. Those two points happened in the same season, by the way. He wasn't known to have the best foot speed nor defensive conscience/instincts, so he wasn't used much in such situation. P. Bure on the other hand was known for his quick step and he was continuously used both on the PK and while defending leads in the dying minutes of a game, hence many SH goals and also a bunch of EN goals.

It's not a coincidence Mike Richards and not say Sergei Berezin or Jonas Höglund has the NHL record for most 3 on 5 short handed goals (3). To score in such situation you have to play in such situations.

 

[Braunbaer]

You would think at least one other guy would have done it by now,I mean God,how many games in history have been played up to this point

I think it's close to impossible to repeat that.

Let's start wird the goal on the penalty shot. A penalty shot itself is pretty rare. I mean is there even a penalty shot in every 25th game? (I have absolutely no clue how frequently they happen)
Then you have to score, of course, which is maybe a 1/3-chance.

And in an era with much less scoring you have to add 4 more goals by the same player. How often do you see a guy score 5 goals nowadays? Even 4 goals are kinda rare.

To top it all off, the game must a close game in which the specific team is leading which means no blow-outs.

 

[jj cale]

I think it's close to impossible to repeat that.

Let's start wird the goal on the penalty shot. A penalty shot itself is pretty rare. I mean is there even a penalty shot in every 25th game? (I have absolutely no clue how frequently they happen)
Then you have to score, of course, which is maybe a 1/3-chance.

And in an era with much less scoring you have to add 4 more goals by the same player. How often do you see a guy score 5 goals nowadays? Even 4 goals are kinda rare.

To top it all off, the game must a close game in which the specific team is leading which means no blow-outs.

Good post.

Only thing I would disagree with is the 1 in 3 chance with the penalty shot, at least when we are talking about Mario. Lemieux going in alone is about and average of 2.5 out of 3, 2 out of 3 at the worst.

Mario going in alone on a goalie pretty much meant the stoppers ass was grass.

 

[blood gin]

I remember when this actually happened. Yes it was the pre social media world and while it was news, it wasn't huge news even in the hockey world. Mario had a 5 goal game and as a tidbit he scored it 5 different ways. 24 hours later nobody was talking about it. Only fairly recently was this elevated to a legendary moment

I'm more impressed with Ian Turnbull scoring 5 in a game as a defenseman

 

[blood gin]

I've always wondered - what happens if someone does this, but the empty net goal is shorthanded? Or on the powerplay? What it it's shorthanded but the player didn't score a shorthanded goal prior?

I don't like the empty net goal as a 5th "way" to score, since it isn't mutually exclusive from the ES/PP/SH ones.

There's also a credited empty net goal. If a player has a breakaway on an empty net and his attempt is broken up by a thrown stick or glove or if he's hauled down and the puck trickles wide of the net, the ref can signal goal without the puck ever entering the net. It sort of happened to Zubrus in 2012 when he was pulled down on an empty net breakaway. The ref immediately signaled goal before the puck made it to the net

 

[LeHab]

Those examples you provided, would be different feats. I think you're over-thinking this whole thing. It's just a fun little fact, not a record, not something people are aiming for, probably not even something somebody could do on purpose. It's just 5 different goals, in 5 different ways, by 1 guy in 1 game. It's neat. It's almost impossible, given the rarity of a single game having all 5 of those different situations occur. And it takes a guy who scores a lot of goals to just happen to be in a game that features those circumstances.

Yeah, it is more a coincidence and extremely unlikely. Had it been a no name rather than a prolific player like Mario this probably would have been forgotten.

These days with more data tracking, I'm sure there various other ways to set new firsts. Other ways could be by shot type (snap shot, slap shot, wrister, deflection, backhand) or shot location (high left, high right, low left, low right, five hole).

 

[shills]

The broadcasters were unaware of the potential feat at the time.

As were all of us in the arena that afternoon.

I was just thrilled to see a 5-goal game from Mario. It wasn't until much later that we learned of what he'd done that day.

 

[jj cale]

With recent developments I suppose Marios feat is a record as much as this new "Reilly breaks Orr's record for pts in first five games"

I wasn't aware anything of the sort was considered a record by the league.

I am going to have to dust off my knowledge of the record books now, perhaps the N.H.L has a record for most pts for a centre between games 40-45.

 

[bobbyking]

With recent developments I suppose Marios feat is a record as much as this new "Reilly breaks Orr's record for pts in first five games"

I wasn't aware anything of the sort was considered a record by the league.

I am going to have to dust off my knowledge of the record books now, perhaps the N.H.L has a record for most pts for a centre between games 40-45.

I don't think they ever said that it was a record moreless a nice feat

 

[jj cale]

I don't think they ever said that it was a record moreless a nice feat

Actually they did.

 

[PhilJets]

To name just a few other things Mario bettered Wayne in. Mario is the only player to score 40+ goals at even strength in a season twice, he has the most 8 points games in history and he holds the record for most short handed goals in a season.

Did Gretzky scored 40+ powerplay goals before when he score 80+goals in a season?

 

[Doctor No]

Did Gretzky scored 40+ powerplay goals before when he score 80+goals in a season?

Gretzky didn't do it twice, though (he did it five times).