Legacy of Pierre Lacroix

[Ivan13]

Looking at the Drury thread we have here I decided to put this thread up so that we can see what people, in general, think about Pierre Lacroix and what he did in Colorado. The text below is taken from the Drury thread and I will expand a bit on it as well:

Lacroix didn't trade Drury because he wanted to shore up the D, he traded him because Drury dared to ask for more money than PL thought he deserved. A familiar pattern that showed its ugly head far too often, most notably with Ozo, Tangs and O'Reilly. Not to mention that his view on the bottom 6 players as cannon fodder costed the Avs dearly at times. He let go of Keane who later because a torn in their side with the Stars, dumped Yelle in the Drury deal etc. But his biggest failing was the coaches, while other powerhouses were coached by the likes of Burns, Big Bird, Hitchcock, Lemaire and Bowman we had the likes of Heartley, Craw and Granato. I feel grateful to him for the two Cup winners he helped build, but I feel they should've won more.

Also, he got raked over the coals so bad in each deal he made with Calgary it's mind-boggling, he basically gave away three-star players (Tangs, Drury and Regher) and a great 4th line center in an era when they were worth quite a bit for a bandaid in Leopold, Morris, McAmmond, Shantz, two 2nd rounders (used to draft C Cody Burki and G Trevor Cann who both flopped spectacularly), Chris Dingman and 33 games of Theo Fleury. Getting that return for any of the three guys the Avs traded is horrible, getting that junk for the three combined is just awful beyond belief and along with the horrible drafting and development system (in particular goalies and D) has set the Avs spiraling out of control and they still haven't recovered from it.

Anyway, since the PL discussion is OT I'll create a new thread where we can discuss his legacy and how he should be viewed around the league to avoid further derailing this thread. I'm also interested in hearing what outsiders think about his moves and legacy.

PL came to power with the Quebec Nordiques in 1994 after spending years as an agent for NHL players, most notably Patrick Roy. His appointment came in a time when the young talent-laden team has finally started to show what it can do, while still battling inconsistencies that cost them a spot in the playoffs in 94. As said before the team was loaded with young talented players ready to take the next step and it also gave him a lot of ammunition for going forward.

His first big trade was the Sundin one. The first trade that showed how narrow-minded he is in his approach to players who ask more than he thinks they are worth. Most will rationalize the trade and say that the Avs, later on, used Wendel Clarke to get Lemieux and in turn played a great role in them winning the first Cup, but looking at this trade as an isolated "incident" it doesn't look too good. The Nordiques traded away a 23-year-old budding superstar in Mats Sundin along with depth defensemen for a 27-year-old Clarke as the main piece who came off a career year scoring 46 goals, but whose career would be downhill from there as he had a lot more mileage and wear and tear on his body than an average 27-year-old. the secondary piece that the Qs received was Lefebvre who did play a substantial role in their first run to the Cup.

His next big move was to move Owen Nolan for Ozo. This was a great move for the Avalanche as Ozo proved to be the missing part to the style of game the Avs wanted to play.

Next move to follow was getting Lemieux from the Islanders, here Lacroix recouped some of the value he lost in the Sundin deal by moving a Clarke who was a flop for a known winner and great playoff performer. I'm not sure how to look at Pepe's time with the Avs, he sure helped a lot and was a big part of the winning team, but he also woke the sleeping giant in Detroit with what he did to Draper. To this day I believe that that event helped fuel the Red Wings and provided Bowman with bulletin board material that he used to wake up a team that could've been pushed over at times.

I won't say much about the Roy trade as plenty of ink was spilled over that one.

Then came the Ricci trade, which turned out great in the end as it netted them Tanguay with the first rounder they received from San Jose. Shean Donovan, on the other hand, was a complete flop for them.

Throwing away Chris Simon and Leschysyn for Keith Jones.

The Ray Bourque trade was obviously a good one for the Avs.

Then add the trades mentioned in the quote above and it doesn't look too good.

But with all the trades and their questionable outcomes, his biggest failing was draft and development. In his years as a GM, the Avalanche has produced a grand total of one homegrown top 4 defenseman in JM Liles. The two other potential ones they have drafted have been either given up before they played a game for the Avs (Regher), or have been bungled so badly (they played Johnny Boychuck at wing for crying out loud)they would've for sure failed had they stayed. Between Foote and Liles there is a complete wasteland of wasted picks and ruined developments that ended only with Shattenkirk and Barrie, who were drafted 7 and 9 years after Liles respectively. The goalie record is even worse, they haven't drafted a single goalie who had more than one decent season as a starter. The closest they got was Aebischer who had one good season right before the lockout with 62 games played and high save percentage before he completely fell apart.

There's more I can add here, but I will leave that for a later date.

Click to read more...

 

[jghockey]

The way I see it, Pierre Lacroix was one of the best GMs in NHL History. Who can argue with 2 Stanley Cups?

 

[sr edler]

Who can argue with 2 Stanley Cups?

It's hard to argue with Cups because they're so silent. They just stand there and never say anything.

 

[jghockey]

Looking at the Drury thread we have here I decided to put this thread up so that we can see what people, in general, think about Pierre Lacroix and what he did in Colorado. The text below is taken from the Drury thread and I will expand a bit on it as well:



PL came to power with the Quebec Remparts in 1994 after spending years as an agent for NHL players, most notably Patrick Roy. His appointment came in a time when the young talent-laden team has finally started to show what it can do, while still battling inconsistencies that cost them a spot in the playoffs in 94. As said before the team was loaded with young talented players ready to take the next step and it also gave him a lot of ammunition for going forward.

His first big trade was the Sundin one. The first trade that showed how narrow-minded he is in his approach to players who ask more than he thinks they are worth. Most will rationalize the trade and say that the Avs, later on, used Wendel Clarke to get Lemieux and in turn played a great role in them winning the first Cup, but looking at this trade as an isolated "incident" it doesn't look too good. The Nordiques traded away a 23-year-old budding superstar in Mats Sundin along with depth defensemen for a 27-year-old Clarke as the main piece who came off a career year scoring 46 goals, but whose career would be downhill from there as he had a lot more mileage and wear and tear on his body than an average 27-year-old. the secondary piece that the Qs received was Lefebvre who did play a substantial role in their first run to the Cup.

His next big move was to move Owen Nolan for Ozo. This was a great move for the Avalanche as Ozo proved to be the missing part to the style of game the Avs wanted to play.

Next move to follow was getting Lemieux from the Islanders, here Lacroix recouped some of the value he lost in the Sundin deal by moving a Clarke who was a flop for a known winner and great playoff performer. I'm not sure how to look at Pepe's time with the Avs, he sure helped a lot and was a big part of the winning team, but he also woke the sleeping giant in Detroit with what he did to Draper. To this day I believe that that event helped fuel the Red Wings and provided Bowman with bulletin board material that he used to wake up a team that could've been pushed over at times.

I won't say much about the Roy trade as plenty of ink was spilled over that one.

Then came the Ricci trade, which turned out great in the end as it netted them Tanguay with the first rounder they received from San Jose. Shean Donovan, on the other hand, was a complete flop for them.

Throwing away Chris Simon and Leschysyn for Keith Jones.

The Ray Bourque trade was obviously a good one for the Avs.

Then add the trades mentioned in the quote above and it doesn't look too good.

But with all the trades and their questionable outcomes, his biggest failing was draft and development. In his years as a GM, the Avalanche has produced a grand total of one homegrown top 4 defenseman in JM Liles. The two other potential ones they have drafted have been either given up before they played a game for the Avs (Regher), or have been bungled so badly (they played Johnny Boychuck at wing for crying out loud)they would've for sure failed had they stayed. Between Foote and Liles there is a complete wasteland of wasted picks and ruined developments that ended only with Shattenkirk and Barrie, who were drafted 7 and 9 years after Liles respectively. The goalie record is even worse, they haven't drafted a single goalie who had more than one decent season as a starter. The closest they got was Aebischer who had one good season right before the lockout with 62 games played and high save percentage before he completely fell apart.

There's more I can add here, but I will leave that for a later date.

The Rob Blake trade was a steal too.

 

[Ivan13]

The way I see it, Pierre Lacroix was one of the best GMs in NHL History. Who can argue with 2 Stanley Cups?

Is Brian Burke a genius as well? I mean he won a Cup in Anaheim thanks to a foundation others have built. PL came in into a great situation, he had a talent-laden team that just missed the playoffs, he had free hands to do as he pleases, plenty of assets to throw around and he used them to get players he wanted often overpaying for them no matter what, and also getting rid of players he didn't like for whatever reason. He basically hasn't developed a defenseman or a goalie worth a damn and homegrown impact players drafted under his regime can be counted on the fingers of one hand of a sawmill worker. The drafting record outside of the 1st round is absolutely appalling and as I said has set back the franchise for a decade. He was good and won because he had tonnes to work with and trade away, and because he was fortunate enough he was friends with Roy and fortunate enough the clown show in Montreal was dumb enough to pick an incompetent coach over the best player to wear the bleu, blanc et rouge since Le Gross Bill hanged them up. The scouts, development staff, coaches (save for Q who got the team to overachieve) were way in over their heads and their track record speaks for themselves, how Craig Billington still has a job should be on the list of World's greatest wonders.

Also, when the lockout came in he sacrificed Foote and Foppa and held onto Blake as he misunderstood the CBA and thought signing bonuses don't count against the cap, which in the end meant they lost Blake as well. Should I even mention how they nearly traded Matt Duchene for a 37-year-old over the hill Adam Foote because PL didn't have the capacity to see where the team is trending? A playoff bubble team traded a 1st round pick for Adam Foote and luckily that pick landed in 2008, had they missed the playoffs that year the Jackets would get Colorado's 2009 1st rounder which turned out to be Matt Duchene.

As for the Blake trade, sure it helped them win the Cup and it was good in the end, but costly nonetheless.

 

[ShelbyZ]

But with all the trades and their questionable outcomes, his biggest failing was draft and development. In his years as a GM, the Avalanche has produced a grand total of one homegrown top 4 defenseman in JM Liles. The two other potential ones they have drafted have been either given up before they played a game for the Avs (Regher), or have been bungled so badly (they played Johnny Boychuck at wing for crying out loud)they would've for sure failed had they stayed. Between Foote and Liles there is a complete wasteland of wasted picks and ruined developments that ended only with Shattenkirk and Barrie, who were drafted 7 and 9 years after Liles respectively. The goalie record is even worse, they haven't drafted a single goalie who had more than one decent season as a starter. The closest they got was Aebischer who had one good season right before the lockout with 62 games played and high save percentage before he completely fell apart.

I feel like if you had a crystal ball and told a teams fans that they could bring in a GM that over the next 12 drafts would bring in forwards like Chris Drury, Milan Hejduk, Mark Parrish, Alex Tanguay, Radim Vrbata and Paul Stastny, they'd be ecstatic.

In the same time period (1994-2005), the Red Wings were often given huge pats on the back for their drafting, and yet Lacroix's record with dmen and goalies is arguably better...

For goalies: Tim Thomas, Marc Denis, Brent Johnson, David Aebischer, Peter Budaj, Philippe Sauve, 16 minutes of Tyler Weiman and 5 guys that never played a minute in the NHL vs. Jimmy Howard, 6 games of Drew MacIntyre and 10 guys that never played a minute in the NHL

On D: Skoula, Regehr, Liles, Boychuk, Gilbert, Sauer and a couple of noticeable 1st round busts in Grimes and Kealty vs Fischer, Kronwall, Ericsson, Quincey, Dandenault (sorta), one season of Dmitri Bykov, and a bigger list of 1st round busts like Golubovsky, Maxim Kuznetsov, Jesse Wallin and Jakub Kindl

---

That said, IMO, the credit for the Avs success during Lacroix's tenure is about 50% Lacroix and 50% Eric Lindros.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, he was great at pulling rabbits out of a hat from 1995-2001 (thank God for Alex Tanguay), but the Chris Drury situation really bothered me, and prioritizing Blake over Forsberg and Foote was basically stripping away the remnants of the team identity. I liked the home-run swing Lacroix made in 2008 in bringing them back. Didn’t work, obviously, but the playoff chase and watching Foote smother Gaborik in Round 1 gave the Lacroix-era Avalanche one last good time.

One of the stranger things: develop the younger Yelle to replace Keane, then re-acquire Keane and trade Yelle. Why.

The volatility made for an exciting team composition - only 1997/1998 and 2000/2001 really blend together in my recollection of the team in their run between the lockouts.

 

[Ivan13]

I feel like if you had a crystal ball and told a teams fans that they could bring in a GM that over the next 12 drafts would bring in forwards like Chris Drury, Milan Hejduk, Mark Parrish, Alex Tanguay, Radim Vrbata and Paul Stastny, they'd be ecstatic.

In the same time period (1994-2005), the Red Wings were often given huge pats on the back for their drafting, and yet Lacroix's record with dmen and goalies is arguably better...

For goalies: Tim Thomas, Marc Denis, Brent Johnson, David Aebischer, Peter Budaj, Philippe Sauve, 16 minutes of Tyler Weiman and 5 guys that never played a minute in the NHL vs. Jimmy Howard, 6 games of Drew MacIntyre and 10 guys that never played a minute in the NHL

On D: Skoula, Regehr, Liles, Boychuk, Gilbert, Sauer and a couple of noticeable 1st round busts in Grimes and Kealty vs Fischer, Kronwall, Ericsson, Quincey, Dandenault (sorta), one season of Dmitri Bykov, and a bigger list of 1st round busts like Golubovsky, Maxim Kuznetsov, Jesse Wallin and Jakub Kindl

---

That said, IMO, the credit for the Avs success during Lacroix's tenure is about 50% Lacroix and 50% Eric Lindros.

So of the guys listed the only ones who actually brought something to the Avs either in a trade or in on-ice performance are Liles, Aebischer, Budaj and that's it. Boychuck was used as a winger and would probably never get a chance in the NHL had he not be traded to the Bruins. Aebischer was a headcase who had one decent season and after that, he wasn't even a NHL level backup and was traded for another underperformer in Theodore. Skoula, don't get me even started. Regher was traded to the Flames for Theo in one of the worst trades in franchise history before ever planting a skate on the home ice in Denver, the Flames could've picked between Skoula and Regher and picked Robyn sadly.

As for forwards, yeah, they always knew how to find them, too bad they more often than not traded them away in dumb deals over money as was the case with Drury, Tanguay, O'Reilly, Sundin, etc.

As for who should get credit for the Avs success, you forget the foundation that allowed PL to play the part of a gunslinger that he inherited from the old regime whose incompetence stocked the cupboards choke full with guys like Sakic, Foote, Nolan, Ricci, Sundin, Forsberg, Thibault, Leschysyn, Kamensky, Gusarov, Corbet, Deadmarsh, etc. Furthermore, both Hejduk and Drury have been taken in 1994, the year he took over, so it's hard to credit him for the work that was done scouting those two when he wasn't with the org.

 

[Ivan13]

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, he was great at pulling rabbits out of a hat from 1995-2001 (thank God for Alex Tanguay), but the Chris Drury situation really bothered me, and prioritizing Blake over Forsberg and Foote was basically stripping away the remnants of the team identity. I liked the home-run swing Lacroix made in 2008 in bringing them back. Didn’t work, obviously, but the playoff chase and watching Foote smother Gaborik in Round 1 gave the Lacroix-era Avalanche one last good time.

One of the stranger things: develop the younger Yelle to replace Keane, then re-acquire Keane and trade Yelle. Why.

The volatility made for an exciting team composition - only 1997/1998 and 2000/2001 really blend together in my recollection of the team in their run between the lockouts.

Yeah that was fun at that moment, but knowing what we know now, that team was a few points out of forking over Matt Duchene for Adam Foote.

As for Yelle thing, that was his MO. He treated bottom 6 forwards like junk.

 

[jghockey]

No GM is perfect. Pierre Lacroix did much more good than bad for the Avs during his tenure.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

It's hard to argue with Cups because they're so silent. They just stand there and never say anything.

sometimes they even plug your ears, further inhibiting argument

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

my defense of lacroix and the sundin trade that i think most ppl disagree with (but i stand by it)—

I think one thing that gets forgotten is that the Nordiques also had a young center named Mike Ricci.

The forgotten man is Lefebvre.

^ this and this.

here's a timeline that gives maybe some more context for that trade:

april, 1993: ridiculously skilled but very green team makes a historic jump in the standings, is up two games to zero in the playoffs, then proceeds to lose four straight to the canadiens, who have much more experience... plus the greatest goalie of all time. coach/GM pierre pagé singles out sundin and andrei kovalenko as two guys who seemed too happy to just be there.





defense corps is steve duchesne, a very young adam foote, curtis leschyshyn, craig wolanin, alexei gusarov, kerry huffman, and david karpa. hardly a murderer's row.

starting goalie is ron hextall, who did not acquit himself well in the losses. former goalie of the future stephane fiset starting to run out of chances.

draft day, 1993: drafts jocelyn thibault, considered by some to be the best goalie prospect since sean burke/jimmy waite to be new goalie of the future. trades hextall to move from 23rd to 13th and draft rugged WHL winger adam deadmarsh.

summer, 1993: contract negotiations with PMD steve duchesne, coming off a career 82 point season, stall.

fall, 1994: pagé rushes thibault into the league, splitting duties between him and fiset. begins the season without duchesne, hence no PMD. owen nolan gets injured for the season on the sixth game of the season. team stumbles out of the gate, with just five wins in october and three in november.

january, 1994: quebec trades holdout steve duchesne, coming off a career 82 point season, for three tough and very defensive-minded players: ron sutter (who had tonnes of playoff experience with the flyers), bob bassen, and garth butcher.

may, 1994: after a disastrous step back season where the team failed to make the playoffs, pierre pagé is fired. marc crawford hired as coach and more importantly pierre lacroix hired as GM.

draft day, 1994: two trades. sundin out, wendel clark in; butcher out, sylvain lefebvre in; ron sutter out, uwe krupp in. also trades down on three draft picks: todd warriner (former #4) for landon wilson (former #19); #9 to #12 (i.e., brett lindros for wade belak); #10 to #22 (i.e., nolan baumgartner for jeff kealty).

the moral of the story? the '93 team lost because there were lots and lots and lots of high picks (nolan, sundin, leschyshyn, ricci) and other young scoring hotshots (sakic, kamensky, rucinsky, kovalenko), but very little toughness and almost no experience. the three guys they got back had been to the third round a combined five times in the previous two seasons, the two defensemen averaged 6'4, 220 lbs between them, and wendel clark played a level of toughness and urgency that the team had previously lacked.

what did they lose? an aging garth butcher, who was replaced by two big, tough, steady defensemen in their primes; two more top ten draft picks they didn't need; and two young high picks. one of the young high picks was a bust (warriner), the other was a future hall of famer, pierre pagé’s whipping boy mats sundin.

even the draft picks all signaled a new directions: wilson, belak (RIP), and kealty were all big useless plugs. but you win some (deadmarsh) and you lose some.

may, 1995: after a bounce back regular season, with sakic and nolan among the league leaders in points and goals, respectively; forsberg as advertised and scoring at above a point/game pace to win the calder; and team finishing 2nd overall in the standings (center depth is sakic, forsberg, ricci; RW depth is nolan, scott young, kovalenko, and rookie deadmarsh. so who needed sundin, anyway?), the team in its last season in quebec loses to the rangers in the first round. thibault did okay and flashed a lot of promise, but fiset, who was the presumptive starter, just wasn't good enough.

october, 1995: three things happen: 1. wendel clark is traded for reigning conn smythe winner and two-time stanley cup champion claude lemieux, 2. adam deadmarsh clicks on a line with sakic and kamensky, and 3. owen nolan, now a luxury due to deadmarsh's emergence, is traded to fill the steve duchesne hole that had been vacant for two years.

december, 1995: after a long string of trades beginning with the lindros one where they kept trading one great thing for multiple lesser things to plug some holes, lacroix does the opposite: thibault, rucinsky, and kovalenko for patrick roy. and rejean houle even threw in mike keane so he could make the french-speaking pierre turgeon captain. avalanche too green? sakic doesn't know how to win? enter patrick roy, claude lemieux, mike keane, and sylvain lefebvre.

i think what all this tells us is that the sundin trade was really just the most extreme case in a long run from '93 to '96 where that quebec/colorado team didn't have enough experience, wasn't good enough in its own end, wasn't tough enough, didn't have a PMD, and didn't have the greatest goalie ever and then got all those things. then it won the stanley cup. mission accomplished.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I'm not sure how to look at Pepe's time with the Avs, he sure helped a lot and was a big part of the winning team, but he also woke the sleeping giant in Detroit with what he did to Draper. To this day I believe that that event helped fuel the Red Wings and provided Bowman with bulletin board material that he used to wake up a team that could've been pushed over at times.

otoh, is it possible that without lemieux drapering draper, maybe detroit finds a way to come back and win in 1996 and the avs have to wait until ray bourque?

 

[Brodeur]

To this day, I still find it amazing/small miracle that Lacroix didn't have a bigger haul from the 1998 Draft. The Avs owned 1st rounders from Boston, San Jose, Los Angeles, and Washington; In 1997, those teams picked 1-2-3-9 but all managed to improve drastically the following season.

I will credit him with not being afraid of pulling a blockbuster. Allegedly the Devils had an okay trade offer for Rob Blake as a rental in 2001, but the Avs topped it and got a Cup as a result. Similarly, Lacroix was persistent in his pursuit of Ray Bourque in 2000 when it seemed like he'd end up in Philadelphia.

 

[Ivan13]

otoh, is it possible that without lemieux drapering draper, maybe detroit finds a way to come back and win in 1996 and the avs have to wait until ray bourque?

Sure. It's the ultimate what if from Avs pov. If the Wings remain a sleeping giant and fail again in 97 do they trade Yzerman? Etc etc, but that is getting way off topic.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think the big what if is if duchesne doesn’t hold out in 1994. with a pmd, do they not bottom out and miss the playoffs?

no firing of page, no hiring of crawford and lacroix, if no lacroix perhaps no sundin trade because who else has the balls?

no need to sacrifice nolan for ozo? no inside track on roy?

 

[jghockey]

my defense of lacroix and the sundin trade that i think most ppl disagree with (but i stand by it)—





^ this and this.

here's a timeline that gives maybe some more context for that trade:

april, 1993: ridiculously skilled but very green team makes a historic jump in the standings, is up two games to zero in the playoffs, then proceeds to lose four straight to the canadiens, who have much more experience... plus the greatest goalie of all time. coach/GM pierre pagé singles out sundin and andrei kovalenko as two guys who seemed too happy to just be there.





defense corps is steve duchesne, a very young adam foote, curtis leschyshyn, craig wolanin, alexei gusarov, kerry huffman, and david karpa. hardly a murderer's row.

starting goalie is ron hextall, who did not acquit himself well in the losses. former goalie of the future stephane fiset starting to run out of chances.

draft day, 1993: drafts jocelyn thibault, considered by some to be the best goalie prospect since sean burke/jimmy waite to be new goalie of the future. trades hextall to move from 23rd to 13th and draft rugged WHL winger adam deadmarsh.

summer, 1993: contract negotiations with PMD steve duchesne, coming off a career 82 point season, stall.

fall, 1994: pagé rushes thibault into the league, splitting duties between him and fiset. begins the season without duchesne, hence no PMD. owen nolan gets injured for the season on the sixth game of the season. team stumbles out of the gate, with just five wins in october and three in november.

january, 1994: quebec trades holdout steve duchesne, coming off a career 82 point season, for three tough and very defensive-minded players: ron sutter (who had tonnes of playoff experience with the flyers), bob bassen, and garth butcher.

may, 1994: after a disastrous step back season where the team failed to make the playoffs, pierre pagé is fired. marc crawford hired as coach and more importantly pierre lacroix hired as GM.

draft day, 1994: two trades. sundin out, wendel clark in; butcher out, sylvain lefebvre in; ron sutter out, uwe krupp in. also trades down on three draft picks: todd warriner (former #4) for landon wilson (former #19); #9 to #12 (i.e., brett lindros for wade belak); #10 to #22 (i.e., nolan baumgartner for jeff kealty).

the moral of the story? the '93 team lost because there were lots and lots and lots of high picks (nolan, sundin, leschyshyn, ricci) and other young scoring hotshots (sakic, kamensky, rucinsky, kovalenko), but very little toughness and almost no experience. the three guys they got back had been to the third round a combined five times in the previous two seasons, the two defensemen averaged 6'4, 220 lbs between them, and wendel clark played a level of toughness and urgency that the team had previously lacked.

what did they lose? an aging garth butcher, who was replaced by two big, tough, steady defensemen in their primes; two more top ten draft picks they didn't need; and two young high picks. one of the young high picks was a bust (warriner), the other was a future hall of famer, pierre pagé’s whipping boy mats sundin.

even the draft picks all signaled a new directions: wilson, belak (RIP), and kealty were all big useless plugs. but you win some (deadmarsh) and you lose some.

may, 1995: after a bounce back regular season, with sakic and nolan among the league leaders in points and goals, respectively; forsberg as advertised and scoring at above a point/game pace to win the calder; and team finishing 2nd overall in the standings (center depth is sakic, forsberg, ricci; RW depth is nolan, scott young, kovalenko, and rookie deadmarsh. so who needed sundin, anyway?), the team in its last season in quebec loses to the rangers in the first round. thibault did okay and flashed a lot of promise, but fiset, who was the presumptive starter, just wasn't good enough.

october, 1995: three things happen: 1. wendel clark is traded for reigning conn smythe winner and two-time stanley cup champion claude lemieux, 2. adam deadmarsh clicks on a line with sakic and kamensky, and 3. owen nolan, now a luxury due to deadmarsh's emergence, is traded to fill the steve duchesne hole that had been vacant for two years.

december, 1995: after a long string of trades beginning with the lindros one where they kept trading one great thing for multiple lesser things to plug some holes, lacroix does the opposite: thibault, rucinsky, and kovalenko for patrick roy. and rejean houle even threw in mike keane so he could make the french-speaking pierre turgeon captain. avalanche too green? sakic doesn't know how to win? enter patrick roy, claude lemieux, mike keane, and sylvain lefebvre.

i think what all this tells us is that the sundin trade was really just the most extreme case in a long run from '93 to '96 where that quebec/colorado team didn't have enough experience, wasn't good enough in its own end, wasn't tough enough, didn't have a PMD, and didn't have the greatest goalie ever and then got all those things. then it won the stanley cup. mission accomplished.

They also got Ozolinsh that year.

 

[Ivan13]

my defense of lacroix and the sundin trade that i think most ppl disagree with (but i stand by it)—





^ this and this.

here's a timeline that gives maybe some more context for that trade:

april, 1993: ridiculously skilled but very green team makes a historic jump in the standings, is up two games to zero in the playoffs, then proceeds to lose four straight to the canadiens, who have much more experience... plus the greatest goalie of all time. coach/GM pierre pagé singles out sundin and andrei kovalenko as two guys who seemed too happy to just be there.





defense corps is steve duchesne, a very young adam foote, curtis leschyshyn, craig wolanin, alexei gusarov, kerry huffman, and david karpa. hardly a murderer's row.

starting goalie is ron hextall, who did not acquit himself well in the losses. former goalie of the future stephane fiset starting to run out of chances.

draft day, 1993: drafts jocelyn thibault, considered by some to be the best goalie prospect since sean burke/jimmy waite to be new goalie of the future. trades hextall to move from 23rd to 13th and draft rugged WHL winger adam deadmarsh.

summer, 1993: contract negotiations with PMD steve duchesne, coming off a career 82 point season, stall.

fall, 1994: pagé rushes thibault into the league, splitting duties between him and fiset. begins the season without duchesne, hence no PMD. owen nolan gets injured for the season on the sixth game of the season. team stumbles out of the gate, with just five wins in october and three in november.

january, 1994: quebec trades holdout steve duchesne, coming off a career 82 point season, for three tough and very defensive-minded players: ron sutter (who had tonnes of playoff experience with the flyers), bob bassen, and garth butcher.

may, 1994: after a disastrous step back season where the team failed to make the playoffs, pierre pagé is fired. marc crawford hired as coach and more importantly pierre lacroix hired as GM.

draft day, 1994: two trades. sundin out, wendel clark in; butcher out, sylvain lefebvre in; ron sutter out, uwe krupp in. also trades down on three draft picks: todd warriner (former #4) for landon wilson (former #19); #9 to #12 (i.e., brett lindros for wade belak); #10 to #22 (i.e., nolan baumgartner for jeff kealty).

the moral of the story? the '93 team lost because there were lots and lots and lots of high picks (nolan, sundin, leschyshyn, ricci) and other young scoring hotshots (sakic, kamensky, rucinsky, kovalenko), but very little toughness and almost no experience. the three guys they got back had been to the third round a combined five times in the previous two seasons, the two defensemen averaged 6'4, 220 lbs between them, and wendel clark played a level of toughness and urgency that the team had previously lacked.

what did they lose? an aging garth butcher, who was replaced by two big, tough, steady defensemen in their primes; two more top ten draft picks they didn't need; and two young high picks. one of the young high picks was a bust (warriner), the other was a future hall of famer, pierre pagé’s whipping boy mats sundin.

even the draft picks all signaled a new directions: wilson, belak (RIP), and kealty were all big useless plugs. but you win some (deadmarsh) and you lose some.

may, 1995: after a bounce back regular season, with sakic and nolan among the league leaders in points and goals, respectively; forsberg as advertised and scoring at above a point/game pace to win the calder; and team finishing 2nd overall in the standings (center depth is sakic, forsberg, ricci; RW depth is nolan, scott young, kovalenko, and rookie deadmarsh. so who needed sundin, anyway?), the team in its last season in quebec loses to the rangers in the first round. thibault did okay and flashed a lot of promise, but fiset, who was the presumptive starter, just wasn't good enough.

october, 1995: three things happen: 1. wendel clark is traded for reigning conn smythe winner and two-time stanley cup champion claude lemieux, 2. adam deadmarsh clicks on a line with sakic and kamensky, and 3. owen nolan, now a luxury due to deadmarsh's emergence, is traded to fill the steve duchesne hole that had been vacant for two years.

december, 1995: after a long string of trades beginning with the lindros one where they kept trading one great thing for multiple lesser things to plug some holes, lacroix does the opposite: thibault, rucinsky, and kovalenko for patrick roy. and rejean houle even threw in mike keane so he could make the french-speaking pierre turgeon captain. avalanche too green? sakic doesn't know how to win? enter patrick roy, claude lemieux, mike keane, and sylvain lefebvre.

i think what all this tells us is that the sundin trade was really just the most extreme case in a long run from '93 to '96 where that quebec/colorado team didn't have enough experience, wasn't good enough in its own end, wasn't tough enough, didn't have a PMD, and didn't have the greatest goalie ever and then got all those things. then it won the stanley cup. mission accomplished.

I do agree with all of this and it's a well thought out post, but what irks me is that completely missed the boat on who to trade Sundin for. Yes, in the end, it ended up being somewhat redeemed by trading Clarke for Lemieux, but trading Mats Sundin for a guy who had a career season and tons of mileage on his body was a terrible decision. It would be akin to trading a Leon Draisaitl for Lučić.

 

[sr edler]

sometimes they even plug your ears, further inhibiting argument

I always thought he was talking about the cup rings plugging his ears. That would make a bit more sense size wise.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I do agree with all of this and it's a well thought out post, but what irks me is that completely missed the boat on who to trade Sundin for. Yes, in the end, it ended up being somewhat redeemed by trading Clarke for Lemieux, but trading Mats Sundin for a guy who had a career season and tons of mileage on his body was a terrible decision. It would be akin to trading a Leon Draisaitl for Lučić.

i definitely don't think trading sundin, butcher, todd warriner (4th overall pick), and the 10th overall pick for clark, lefebvre, landon wilson (19th overall pick), and the 22nd pick was good value. i mean, if you're giving up sundin and not getting a legit star back, how on earth do you lose value on both the draft pick and the prospect?

but still, did a year of watching wendel clark chewing on nails and sharpening his knuckles alter the careers of sakic, forsberg, deadmarsh, ricci?

 

[Hasbro]

Throwing away Chris Simon and Leschysyn for Keith Jones.

They also got back a 1st in that trade.

He pretty much hit the point Ken Holland is in his career.

 

[Voight]

Very good GM.

Had 3 solid pieces on the team when he got there, was able to snag a 4th/starting goalie (who happened to be the best in the league/best in history) who was outstanding come playoff time. Then he made the right moves and added the right players, it was gutsy trading Sundin but it opened up space for Foppa to develop into the star he would become, his drafting was actually very good - it was more noticeable on the 2001 team - and getting two of the best defensemen in the league at back2back trade deadlines was nothing short of impossible.

That 96-2003 Avs core/team was fun to watch.

 

[tony d]

He had a good run as Avs GM. Some of those Avs team back then were quite good for sure.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

there was a behind the scenes reason for the chris simon trade right? i have no recollection but was it money? a feud with crawford or teammates? creating a spot for eric?

man, that is a what if. legit heavyweights who can score 10+ ES goals don’t grow on trees. if simon is still there in 1997, maybe those detroit games go a different way. maybe those next few seasons go a different way...

 

[Hasbro]

He also traded away Chris Dingman.