Post-Game Talk: Leafs win!

[mix1home]

Last night

Brown 18 minutes
Ennis 19:30 minutes
Zaitsev 24 minutes

DJ Smith folks.

Probably just playing motivation card against former team. But then again, who do they have on Ottawa team to play? Those players would be considered veterans on their team. And leafs are still younger on overage than rebuilding Ottawa team. lol

 

[Suntouchable13]

Probably just playing motivation card against former team. But then again, who do they have on Ottawa team to play? Those players would be considered veterans on their team. And leafs are still younger on overage than rebuilding Ottawa team. lol

That's cause we dropped Hainsey and Marleau. Hainsey now raises the Sens average age, lol.

 

[Zizzzzy]

If I was Dubas I would say to Babcock that if that happens again I am sending Sandin down to the AHL, rather than allowing Babcock to ruin his development. If Dubas is willing to allow Babcock to ruin Sandin's development then he is just as bad. This was against possibly the worst team in the league, and in a game when they were up by 3 for a period of time.

Poor Sandin. What has he ever done to deserve this treatment? Literally throwing his development down the toilet. He was poised to have an amazing career too!

This game against the crappy Ottawa Senators at the start of the season was not so super duper special that Babcock needed to play his top-4 as much as he did. This team has been on verge of missing the playoffs while playing against really good teams in must win situations and Babcock still managed to play his 3rd pairing much much more.

I think you are losing track of the big picture here. Our top 4 have a game or two of preseason exp together and you are sitting here worrying that our 3rd pairing didn't get enough ice time in game 1. I feel its much more valuable to ensure your top D pairings get a good feel for themselves than giving the rooky a few extra shifts. Hell, he played him over 30 minutes the one preseason game.

Like, at what point does playing against NHL QOC, practicing with NHL players, having access to NHL coaches, facilities, and salary benefit ones development more than ice time against AHL players? Like, is he going to learn more defending against Matthews, Nylander, Tavares, and Marner line rushes, or Rich Clune and Bracco?

Last night

Brown 18 minutes
Ennis 19:30 minutes
Zaitsev 24 minutes

DJ Smith folks.

I don't remember hearing Browns name all night. He was on the top line? lol

I mean... he doesn't have much to work with.

Somebody forgot about Defense.

I didn't want him to lose an eye, no one did, but he didn't and no one is going to feel bad for him because of his slew foot at the end.

Slew foot? Matthews tripped over his stick ...

 

[KuleminFan41]

I am angry at incompetence no matter where or when it happens.

There's literally 81 games remaining to judge the usage of Sandin. Like I said, give him a couple games because things can just as easily change the next game, which is tomorrow. Relax , no sense in getting angry after 1 game.

 

[GardinerTheForward]

I'll defend Babcock in this case, as he made the right decision

Scratching Spezza or never playing Leivo


Spezza might suck but let him start against his draft team. I don’t care about Spezza but just illustrating Babcock is a power trip guy

 

[biotk]

I think you are losing track of the big picture here. Our top 4 have a game or two of preseason exp together and you are sitting here worrying that our 3rd pairing didn't get enough ice time in game 1.

One wonders how Carrick and Borgman managed to play 16 minutes on opening night 2 years ago despite Rielly and Gardiner needing to get used to their new partners, and how 3rd pairing D Carrick managed to play almost 19 minutes the opening night of the season before that, and Dermott played 18 minutes the opening night last season.

I have also repeatedly said that I am perfectly happy with it if Babcock decides to play the third pairing very little. Great. Send Sandin down.

Like, at what point does playing against NHL QOC, practicing with NHL players, having access to NHL coaches, facilities, and salary benefit ones development more than ice time against AHL players? Like, is he going to learn more defending against Matthews, Nylander, Tavares, and Marner line rushes, or Rich Clune and Bracco?

All you have to do is look up the various top-4 NHL D and see how much they played in their first game, first month, first season. NHL teams have long ago recognized that it is counterproductive to have a young D with potential playing minimal minutes on the 3rd pairing. If the can't start out in the top-4, they will either play decent minutes on the third pairing or get sent down.

 

[Leviathan899]

Poor Sandin. What has he ever done to deserve this treatment? Literally throwing his development down the toilet. He was poised to have an amazing career too!



I think you are losing track of the big picture here. Our top 4 have a game or two of preseason exp together and you are sitting here worrying that our 3rd pairing didn't get enough ice time in game 1. I feel its much more valuable to ensure your top D pairings get a good feel for themselves than giving the rooky a few extra shifts. Hell, he played him over 30 minutes the one preseason game.

Like, at what point does playing against NHL QOC, practicing with NHL players, having access to NHL coaches, facilities, and salary benefit ones development more than ice time against AHL players? Like, is he going to learn more defending against Matthews, Nylander, Tavares, and Marner line rushes, or Rich Clune and Bracco?



I don't remember hearing Browns name all night. He was on the top line? lol



Somebody forgot about Defense.



Slew foot? Matthews tripped over his stick ...

Brown literally had an assist in the first shift of the game...

 

[MattySnipes]

I don't know if anyone saw Anderson's reaction when Auston 1T his second goal but it was priceless.

Auston goes under the bar on the 1T, instantly Anderson just stares at him like "Are you for real bruh, what do I have to do to stop you from scoring on me. f***!"

 

[therealkoho]

Anyone know who 'BeanBag" is?

Jordan Bean Video Analyst Maple Leafs Management

So was there not a high stick on Marincin when whats his name scored the second goal for Ottawa?

yeah I saw that too, NHL refs still working the bugs out after all these years

Scratching Spezza or never playing Leivo


Spezza might suck but let him start against his draft team. I don’t care about Spezza but just illustrating Babcock is a power trip guy

power trippin the 2 points bro, doesn't matter when or why the 2 points are what it's about for any NHL coach, not silly sentimentality

 

[pcruz]

After reading the line "I like soup", all I can think of is:

"I drank beer, I drank a lot of beer, I liked beer, I still like beer"

Soup is the new beer!

 

[67Leafs67]

Impressive game in many ways, obviously lots to improve on though. Once again, a slow start could've potentially bit us in the ass. Not capitalizing on three first period PP's while down 1-0 was frustrating, especially given the lack of control/quality chances in those six minutes.

The rest of the night...classic Leafs. Dominating possession, creating tons of chances & shots, but also giving up those few odd man breaks and bad turnovers that really cost them, and make the game closer than it perhaps should've been. If not for a few inches, this was a 5-4 game when considering the Hainsey goal. It's undeniable that this team can score, especially now with Barrie moving the puck from the right side, our breakout and transitional chances look a lot nicer. But overall (and granted, it's October), we still need to tighten up defensively.

Players I was impressed with? Matthews, obviously, looked great. Barrie was a standout to me though, after a relatively quiet pre-season, he jumped off the page in a great way. While quiet, the rookies, Timashov & Sandin, were really solid, made the right plays with the puck, and were in good positioning...Timashov's penalty was unfortunate. Mikheyev, a fellow rookie, also really impressed, the goal capping it off. The bottom two lines in general were really good. The JT line was the most invisible in my opinion, just didn't seem to create that much, aside from Marner's nice PP assist. Andersen was in his typical October form...some great saves, and also some iffy goals and stops.

 

[ItsFineImFine]

PP didn't look bad, neither did Barrie or Mkhv, it'll probably be a pretty good season.

 

[pcruz]

Kap is literally the perfect 3rd line player, he will become someone like Grabner, he might score 30goals for one or two seasons due to his breakout speed and shot.
But if he ever figures out the game is more than just speed and crash, he will be a Mike Gartner 2.0.

Couldn't disagree more with the Gartner bit. He's just not aware enough on the ice, and it's not likely something that can be learned just like that.
The speed is always going to be his forte, and that will make him a dangerous player for a long time.
The shot is brutal for the most part, as he nearly always misses the net on decent chances, or shoots it directly at the goalie's crest.

Forever a 3rd line specialist with fantastic penalty killing skills (active stick, great speed and a penchant for going for the breakaway instead of dumping the puck). Scored 20 last year somehow, but he won't ever hit that mark again.

 

[pcruz]

Do I realize that Timashov and Shore had 3 shifts before Sandin touched the ice for the first time? Yes. Do you?
Do I realize that after the first PP Babcock put Muzzin and Barrie out, then Rielly and Ceci, then Muzzin and Barrie again, then Rielly and Ceci again? Yes. Do you?
Do I realize that over a 19:50 period spaning the latter half of the second period and first half of the third Sandin played less than a minute? Yes. Do you?
Do I realize that Dermott averaged 16 minutes a game his rookie season? Yes. Do you?
Do I realize that in over 100 regular season games Dermott has always played at least 20% more? Yes. Do you?
Do I realize that includes when the Leafs are playing against the best teams in the league and in really tight games? Yes. Do you?

If Babcock wants to play his first two pairings 50+ minutes a night and sit his 3rd pairing for 11+ minutes at a time, that's his prerogative. Send Sandin to the AHL and give Babcock his choice of Marincin, Holl, Harpur, Gravel, Schmaltz for that third pairing.

Who was the last 19 year old defenseman the Leafs threw straight into the NHL?
How did he turn out?

The kid is 19, he's paired with Marincin for goodness sake. I don't want him out there for 12+ minutes a night yet. Let him grow, get stronger, smarter, more adept at the nuances of the NHL game, do more player scouting and learn more about the opposition.

He'll be somewhat better than Dermott, and I can see a Kaberle level in his future, but if you just throw him into the fire, all we'll get is ashes.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Who was the last 19 year old defenseman the Leafs threw straight into the NHL?
How did he turn out?

The kid is 19, he's paired with Marincin for goodness sake. I don't want him out there for 12+ minutes a night yet. Let him grow, get stronger, smarter, more adept at the nuances of the NHL game, do more player scouting and learn more about the opposition.

He'll be somewhat better than Dermott, and I can see a Kaberle level in his future, but if you just throw him into the fire, all we'll get is ashes.

Rielly? elite

 

[pcruz]

So was there not a high stick on Marincin when whats his name scored the second goal for Ottawa?

Looked like a slashing penalty to me.
He slashed the stick out of Marincin's hands up near his face which led directly to Marincin not covering his guy who immediately scored.
I replayed that like 15 times.

 

[Its not your fault]

Auston Matthews legal issue is literally a little problem


mis·de·mean·or
/ˌmisdəˈmēnər/
noun

1. a minor wrongdoing.

Man I was in line at McDonald's and a bunch of rougher looking kids had their underwear showing in support so I was like yes Go Leafs Go I support Mathews. Maybe it's just a fad but sure does look gangster.

 

[hector morrison]

Jordan Bean Video Analyst Maple Leafs Management



yeah I saw that too, NHL refs still working the bugs out after all these years



power trippin the 2 points bro, doesn't matter when or why the 2 points are what it's about for any NHL coach, not silly sentimentality

You think the Leafs would of lost with Spezza in the line-up?

 

[hector morrison]

Who was the last 19 year old defenseman the Leafs threw straight into the NHL?
How did he turn out?

The kid is 19, he's paired with Marincin for goodness sake. I don't want him out there for 12+ minutes a night yet. Let him grow, get stronger, smarter, more adept at the nuances of the NHL game, do more player scouting and learn more about the opposition.

He'll be somewhat better than Dermott, and I can see a Kaberle level in his future, but if you just throw him into the fire, all we'll get is ashes.

You're not really comparing Sandin to Schenn are you? Don't know if you noticed,but he directs Marincin. They seem to communicate fairly well (I don't like Marincin) so it wasn't a bad outcome last nite. It should be obvious to you that Sandin is a bit better than most Dmen his age. He has nothing to learn in the AHL anymore. This lad puts out fires before they start...I'm not worried,he gonna have a few bad games in him ,but I can't see him goin down now. He shoulda made the team last year,he was the best player in camp!

 

[hector morrison]

Man I was in line at McDonald's and a bunch of rougher looking kids had their underwear showing in support so I was like yes Go Leafs Go I support Mathews. Maybe it's just a fad but sure does look gangster.

Did they have Leaf underwear on? Or maybe the number 34 tatted on their arse?

 

[GardinerTheForward]

Jordan Bean Video Analyst Maple Leafs Management



yeah I saw that too, NHL refs still working the bugs out after all these years



power trippin the 2 points bro, doesn't matter when or why the 2 points are what it's about for any NHL coach, not silly sentimentality

Playin Spezza does not influence the chance to win. the fourth line is filled with low impact players

 

[biotk]

Who was the last 19 year old defenseman the Leafs threw straight into the NHL?
How did he turn out?

As has been pointed out to you already - Rielly.

Sandin - age at debut: 19 years 209 days. Played 8:58
Rielly - age at debut: 19 years 210 days. Played 18:07 (and went on to play 73 games that season averaging 17:37 a game).

The kid is 19, he's paired with Marincin for goodness sake. I don't want him out there for 12+ minutes a night yet. Let him grow, get stronger, smarter, more adept at the nuances of the NHL game, do more player scouting and learn more about the opposition.

You know - the goal is top-4 D. I looked at every single top-4 defenseman in the NHL last year (as there are 31 teams there should be 124 of them, but because there were some instances that were really close between #4 and #5 I looked up 129D) and looked at their debut. Of those 129 - 2 played fewer minutes than Sandin (8:58) in their NHL debut: Chabot (7:09) and Goligoski (8:40). Now you might say Chabot is really good so I hope that Sandin is modelled after him. What did the Sens do with Chabot after his debut? They sent him to the minors for a whole year. Goligoski got two more games before being sent down for a year. (Note - there was one of those 129 who's debut was so long ago that TOI was not tracked during his debut - that is Chara).

There were two other Ds who played less than 2 minutes more than Sandin (so less than 10:58) in their debut: Dumba and Andy Greene (they played 13 and 23 games). What you and many others think is a way of developing a top-4 D is simply not. We know, based on the top-4 in the NHL that there are many ways of getting there. We know that there is essentially one and only one way of not getting there: playing in the NHL with minimal minutes (instead of playing elsewhere with lots of minutes). We know this 100%.

Of those 129 top-4 last season - the season where they had their debut they averaged 18:49 TOI per game.

If the team views you as a potential top-4 and yet you can't play at least 16 minutes a game you should be in the AHL until you can do so.

And Sandin isn't different because he is young. Of those 129 top-4 D the mean age for their debut was 20 years, 270 days (14 months older than Sandin). 3o of those 129 D were younger than Sandin at the time of their debut and they actually averaged 19:44 ATOI during the season they had their debut.

He'll be somewhat better than Dermott, and I can see a Kaberle level in his future, but if you just throw him into the fire, all we'll get is ashes.

Is that so? Like Kaberle, who played 29:13 in his NHL debut, was turned to ashes? People here have real strong opinions based on nothing but their gut feel.

Maybe you should go check out the large of young Ds who had their debut in Detroit under Babcock and played minimal minutes (around the 12 minutes or so a game you recommend) Number of those who became top-4 with Detroit? I believe the answer to that is zero. (ever wonder why Detroit was such a terrible team by the time Babcock left?)

Play him or send him down. I don't care that much which one they choose. On March 16th I said on here that Sandin would be in the opening night lineup and that despite playing great he would last 9 or fewer games because Babcock won't play him enough. That remains by far the most likely scenario. It has nothing to do with the player. Simply a bad coach.

 

[sparxx87]

Playin Spezza does not influence the chance to win. the fourth line is filled with low impact players

I know. That’s the problem.

Glad we agree.

 

[sparxx87]

As has been pointed out to you already - Rielly.

Sandin - age at debut: 19 years 209 days. Played 8:58
Rielly - age at debut: 19 years 210 days. Played 18:07 (and went on to play 73 games that season averaging 17:37 a game).



You know - the goal is top-4 D. I looked at every single top-4 defenseman in the NHL last year (as there are 31 teams there should be 124 of them, but because there were some instances that were really close between #4 and #5 I looked up 129D) and looked at their debut. Of those 129 - 2 played fewer minutes than Sandin (8:58) in their NHL debut: Chabot (7:09) and Goligoski (8:40). Now you might say Chabot is really good so I hope that Sandin is modelled after him. What did the Sens do with Chabot after his debut? They sent him to the minors for a whole year. Goligoski got two more games before being sent down for a year. (Note - there was one of those 129 who's debut was so long ago that TOI was not tracked during his debut - that is Chara).

There were two other Ds who played less than 2 minutes more than Sandin (so less than 10:58) in their debut: Dumba and Andy Greene (they played 13 and 23 games). What you and many others think is a way of developing a top-4 D is simply not. We know, based on the top-4 in the NHL that there are many ways of getting there. We know that there is essentially one and only one way of not getting there: playing in the NHL with minimal minutes (instead of playing elsewhere with lots of minutes). We know this 100%.

Of those 129 top-4 last season - the season where they had their debut they averaged 18:49 TOI per game.

If the team views you as a potential top-4 and yet you can't play at least 16 minutes a game you should be in the AHL until you can.



Is that so? Like Kaberle, who played 29:13 in his NHL debut, was turned to ashes? People here have real strong opinions based on nothing but their gut feel.

Maybe you should go check out the large of young Ds who had their debut in Detroit under Babcock and played minimal minutes (around the 12 minutes or so a game you recommend) Number of those who became top-4 with Detroit? I believe the answer to that is zero. (ever wonder why Detroit was such a terrible team by the time Babcock left?)

Great move by the coach. The first 10 minutes were chaotic and filled with special teams. He let the game settle down before throwing the rookie out there. He was cautious about throwing him into deep water and waited until he could ease him into a situation where he could be successful. It worked. Great job by the coach.

Babcock clearly likes the player and is only being cautious. I love when coaches put their guys in the best chance to thrive... Don’t you?

Take off your tin foil hat. It was ONE game. He’ll be cautious for a few weeks but if Sandin continues to thrive, shackles will come off by Christmas. I guarantee you.

 

[biotk]

Great move by the coach. The first 10 minutes were chaotic and filled with special teams. He let the game settle down before throwing the rookie out there. He was cautious about throwing him into deep water and waited until he could ease him into a situation where he could be successful. It worked. Great job by the coach.

Babcock clearly likes the player and is only being cautious. I love when coaches put their guys in the best chance to thrive... Don’t you?

Take off your tin foil hat. It was ONE game. He’ll be cautious for a few weeks but if Sandin continues to thrive, shackles will come off by Christmas. I guarantee you.

And the 19:50 period of time from the mid-second period to the mid-third period when things were no longer chaotic and yet Sandin played less than a minute?

What happened was embarrassing. If it happens again and Dubas doesn't send Sandin down to the Marlies for the rest of the season then Dubas is as bad as Babcock.

I will repeat my edit addition to the post you quoted:

Play him or send him down. I don't care that much which one they choose. On March 16th I said on here that Sandin would be in the opening night lineup and that despite playing great he would last 9 or fewer games because Babcock won't play him enough. That remains by far the most likely scenario. It has nothing to do with the player. Simply a bad coach.