Post-Game Talk: Leafs win big 6-2

[Ziggdiezan]

He gets over rated because his skating/size is at top of class with McJesus. But he does not have the hockey sense and skills needed yet. His decision making on ice leaves a lot to be desired. He may turn into a Gards. I think these types of guys with wheels everyone thinks they can turn them into a STAR. I have seen it a hundred times over.

Ya he makes some shocking mistakes in the defensive zone almost every game it seems like.

 

[ShaneFalco]

On the other hand, I'd sit PM a few games over Brown
But that will never happen

 

[fahad203]

Matthews is deemed to have an off night because the puck was always around him but he couldn't get it to settle.

Meanwhile someone like Tavares was actually invisible and nobody noticed, because he was never near the puck.

Tavares does other stuff that are very noticeable.
He hustles, he tries, he uses his body along the boards, wins key face offs
He's always around the net. He was a handful along the boards

 

[eddieO]

Funny how Moore this year and AJ last year are surprise gems. It’s almost as if we have an excellent, world class coach who knows how to develop young players throughout his career.

But no, can’t tell this board that. They’re smarter than Babs.

Happy we have Mike.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Funny how Moore this year and AJ last year are surprise gems. It’s almost as if we have an excellent, world class coach who knows how to develop young players throughout his career.

But no, can’t tell this board that. They’re smarter than Babs.

Happy we have Mike.

What does babs have to do with developing Moore or AJ?

 

[fahad203]

Funny how Moore this year and AJ last year are surprise gems. It’s almost as if we have an excellent, world class coach who knows how to develop young players throughout his career.

But no, can’t tell this board that. They’re smarter than Babs.

Happy we have Mike.

What does Moore's development have to do anything with Babs? or AJ's?
Everyone knew AJ was going to be decent as soon as he was drafted. His numbers in SHL was very good

Moore was a good find and developed in the Marlies

Has absolutely nothing to do with Babs. AJ scored in every level before NHL, none that was coached or influenced by Babs

That pretty much goes for every player with the exception of Kadri. He excelled under Babs. I'll give him that

Our scouts did really well-drafting players beyond 1st round

 

[Nithoniniel]

It sounds like you (and others) just like to make excuses for Nylander.

I'm a Nylander fanboy. That's why I try to distance myself from bias and look at things as analytically as possible.

Nylander has terrific shot metrics across the board, including those that take quality into account. He has set up more passing opportunities than most of the league, even when taking quality into account. Over the last few years, he's in the same group as Marner and Matthews in terms of individual chance generation. This season he and Kapanen are slightly behind those two and Tavares. Like I said last week, I got a look at some tracking data and Nylander had the second most slot passes on the team, was our best transition player, second best in individual puck possession, was in the top group in forced turnovers from forecheck. Last year he led the league in neutral zone stick checks, and led the team in neutral zone defensive plays. I don't have this years data. I've tracked his game as a center so far since I've been interested in his defensive game, and he has the most zone exits with possession on the team while also leading the team in slot passes blocked, as well as takeaways in the defensive zone*.

At some point you have to look elsewhere, because absolutely everything points towards him being a great player that we don't get enough out of. How to do that? Perhaps play him on a proper scoring line, where he has been a top 30 forward. Perhaps put him on our only effective PP unit, since he's been a top 10 player in primary point production when he's been on one. Perhaps don't put him on a line with some of our worst forwards offensively, including the guy where the duo has the worst chemistry in the entire league.

Talking about excuses is a cop out. There's nothing to gain by ignoring the above, other than a less informed, less accurate picture.

P.S I really don't think that looking at pre and post-return numbers on a team level is a good way to see his impact. Matthews produced worse after Nylanders return, yes. He has done that with or without Nylander, and it pre-dated Nylander coming back as well. I'm not sure how you can look at my data that looks at what has happened with Nylander on the ice and call it an excuse, and then turn around with your own contextual analysis and partially draw conclusions on things that happen when he's on the bench.

* Those last two has been pretty much the same thing, as he's basically intercepted the puck and moved it up, rather than just block it.

 

[MyBudJT]

I'm a Nylander fanboy. That's why I try to distance myself from bias and look at things as analytically as possible.

Nylander has terrific shot metrics across the board, including those that take quality into account. He has set up more passing opportunities than most of the league, even when taking quality into account. Over the last few years, he's in the same group as Marner and Matthews in terms of individual chance generation. This season he and Kapanen are slightly behind those two and Tavares. Like I said last week, I got a look at some tracking data and Nylander had the second most slot passes on the team, was our best transition player, second best in individual puck possession, was in the top group in forced turnovers from forecheck. Last year he led the league in neutral zone stick checks, and led the team in neutral zone defensive plays.

At some point you have to look elsewhere, because absolutely everything points towards him being a great player that we don't get enough out of. How to do that? Perhaps play him on a proper scoring line, where he has been a top 30 forward. Perhaps put him on our only effective PP unit, since he's been a top 10 player in primary point production when he's been on one. Perhaps don't put him on a line with some of our worst forwards offensively, including the guy where the duo has the worst chemistry in the entire league.

Talking about excuses is a cop out. There's nothing to gain by ignoring the above, other than a less informed, less accurate picture.

I'm a little tired of hearing the 'But the analystics say' excuses.

I get it, he has strong possession numbers and shot metrics... but these haven't translated to actual production. Hockey is a game where whoever scores the most goals wins... Not a game of whoever keeps the puck the longers, or whoever generates the most shots wins...

No matter how you spin it, Nylander hasn't produced the way a 7 million dollar player should. He had about a 10 game stretch where he was showing promise... but seems to have regressed a little bit since that.

 

[Mess]

I, for one, am thrilled the Leafs have gone 66 games this season without a shootout

Me too and those silly things should be removed from the game.. The 3-3 OT drastically reduces that tomfoolery from the game.

 

[fahad203]

I'm a Nylander fanboy. That's why I try to distance myself from bias and look at things as analytically as possible.

Nylander has terrific shot metrics across the board, including those that take quality into account. He has set up more passing opportunities than most of the league, even when taking quality into account. Over the last few years, he's in the same group as Marner and Matthews in terms of individual chance generation. This season he and Kapanen are slightly behind those two and Tavares. Like I said last week, I got a look at some tracking data and Nylander had the second most slot passes on the team, was our best transition player, second best in individual puck possession, was in the top group in forced turnovers from forecheck. Last year he led the league in neutral zone stick checks, and led the team in neutral zone defensive plays.

At some point you have to look elsewhere, because absolutely everything points towards him being a great player that we don't get enough out of. How to do that? Perhaps play him on a proper scoring line, where he has been a top 30 forward. Perhaps put him on our only effective PP unit, since he's been a top 10 player in primary point production when he's been on one. Perhaps don't put him on a line with some of our worst forwards offensively, including the guy where the duo has the worst chemistry in the entire league.

Talking about excuses is a cop out. There's nothing to gain by ignoring the above, other than a less informed, less accurate picture.

There's nobody in this team I am more comfortable carrying the puck than Nylander

I am surprised how people are turning their back on this guy. Few years ago, he was our top star prospect. Because of his contract situation, he has become a villain

McDavid would give up his limb to have a winger like this guy. Smart hockey player who can pass and shoot. Now according to Babs he's not reliable, who cares. , Kovalev was never reliable, I don't care. He can make plays, he can set up, he can carry the puck

Play him with Auston, they both need each other. Its so painful to watch Nylander suffering in that god forsaken line

Brown last night cough up the puck 3 times, one of them lead to 2 minute in our zone with a two on one. If that was Nylander, he would not see the ice for periods and will be relegated to 4th line. Which mind you has been very good

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I'm a little tired of hearing the 'But the analystics say' excuses.

I get it, he has strong possession numbers and shot metrics... but these haven't translated to actual production. Hockey is a game where whoever scores the most goals wins... Not a game of whoever keeps the puck the longers, or whoever generates the most shots wins...

No matter how you spin it, Nylander hasn't produced the way a 7 million dollar player should. He had about a 10 game stretch where he was showing promise... but seems to have regressed a little bit since that.

do you think it's not translating to actual production because Nylander is suddenly terrible at producing points but is dominant at everything else, or because Brown and Marleau are bad linemates and he barely gets PP time?

 

[MyBudJT]

do you think it's not translating to actual production because Nylander is suddenly terrible at producing points but is dominant at everything else, or because Brown and Marleau are bad linemates and he barely gets PP time?

Marleau and Brown have only been Nylanders linemates for about 12% of the season... this is just an excuse.

Also, since Nylander returned, he's 6th on the time in PPTOI. 5th among forwards.

Guys like Kapanen, Hyman, Ennis and Moore have been more productive than Nylander, despite minimal PP time...

 

[ShaneFalco]

Perhaps play him on a proper scoring line, where he has been a top 30 forward. Perhaps put him on our only effective PP unit, since he's been a top 10 player in primary point production when he's been on one. Perhaps don't put him on a line with some of our worst forwards offensively, including the guy where the duo has the worst chemistry in the entire league.

This exactly
Put him in a position to succeed

 

[ShaneFalco]

How does Marincin keep drawing in when Holl, who we're not sure what we have there, plays a bad game and sits in the pressbox for months?

 

[Nithoniniel]

I'm a little tired of hearing the 'But the analystics say' excuses.

I get it, he has strong possession numbers and shot metrics... but these haven't translated to actual production. Hockey is a game where whoever scores the most goals wins... Not a game of whoever keeps the puck the longers, or whoever generates the most shots wins...

No matter how you spin it, Nylander hasn't produced the way a 7 million dollar player should. He had about a 10 game stretch where he was showing promise... but seems to have regressed a little bit since that.

I'm not sure how you can look at my data that looks at what has happened with Nylander on the ice and call it an excuse, and then turn around with your own contextual analysis and partially draw conclusions on things that happen when he's on the bench.

You throw around terms like excuses and spinning, but we are both doing the same thing. I gave contextual information, you gave contextual information. I drew conclusions based on the information available. You drew conclusions based on the information you provided.

Calling it excuses and spinning is just a way of questioning me as a participant in this discussion instead of actually meeting my arguments. And I'm just relaying what information is available. I don't even mind if you toss out the tracking data, considering you only have my word on it. Some of it is publicly available though.

This exactly
Put him in a position to succeed

Yeah. It doesn't really matter if we think he's riding the coattails of Matthews or not. He's been terrific there, Matthews has been terrific with him. He's been very productive on the PP, so use him there.

Everybody should be interested in maximizing value. If you think it's his fault he doesn't produce away from Matthews and a top PP unit, then you should still want to put him there so we can get great production from him.

 

[fahad203]

Marleau and Brown have only been Nylanders linemates for about 12% of the season... this is just an excuse.

Also, since Nylander returned, he's 6th on the time in PPTOI. 5th among forwards.

Guys like Kapanen, Hyman, Ennis and Moore have been more productive than Nylander, despite minimal PP time...

You want to hate on him, by all means. That's within your right

6 on the ice team mean nothing. It's the quality of those ice time. That includes 3 on3, that includes PP

Hyman and Kapanen numbers are deflated. They both have bunch of empty net goals or contributed to empty netters
Kapanen also kills PK and plays with our best center. One plays with Auston our franchise center and other plays with Tavares and Marner, who also our franchise players

Ennis has been out producing a lot of people, good for him. By that logic we don't need Kadri back at all.

 

[Mugzy97]

How does Marincin keep drawing in when Holl, who we're not sure what we have there, plays a bad game and sits in the pressbox for months?

We win 6-2 and still get to read complaints.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Funny how Moore this year and AJ last year are surprise gems. It’s almost as if we have an excellent, world class coach who knows how to develop young players throughout his career.

But no, can’t tell this board that. They’re smarter than Babs.

Happy we have Mike.

Are you sure your not talking about sheldon keefe?

 

[ShaneFalco]

We win 6-2 and still get to read complaints.

I'll wait till they lose then to post:
They know what they have in Marincin. Oz is probably not here next year either
Holl is signed another year
He's a RHD who can move the puck
Why wouldn't you give him some games to see what you have?

 

[Nithoniniel]

We win 6-2 and still get to read complaints.

Sorry about that. I normally don't want to be that guy, I just felt this was the best place to go on my rant. Wouldn't mind if the mods moved the entire discussion to a Nylander thread. If I knew that it would take off, that's where I would post it.

 

[fahad203]

We win 6-2 and still get to read complaints.

Why not?

This is what good fan base do, they care about their team and look for ways to improve

Lost in that 6-2 win are 2 2 on 1, one by our coach's pet Brown.
the give away of Marincin who Freddy had to come big to make a save
A big save on Groudeau that I doubt Sparks can make

You know, stuff like that

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I'm a little tired of hearing the 'But the analystics say' excuses.

I get it, he has strong possession numbers and shot metrics... but these haven't translated to actual production. Hockey is a game where whoever scores the most goals wins... Not a game of whoever keeps the puck the longers, or whoever generates the most shots wins...

No matter how you spin it, Nylander hasn't produced the way a 7 million dollar player should. He had about a 10 game stretch where he was showing promise... but seems to have regressed a little bit since that.

This comment is true but highly unfair. I will just point to Karlson in Vegas. On 1st line he produces (Vegas). On 3rd/4th line not so much(Nashville). Many skilled players are like this. All you have to do is give Willy a couple decent forward partners and his numbers will be fine (maybe a point a game). Give him Kadri and Moore and i guarantee you he will produce. Give him Marleau and Brown well what can anyone do with 4th line scrubs.

 

[MyBudJT]

I'm not sure how you can look at my data that looks at what has happened with Nylander on the ice and call it an excuse, and then turn around with your own contextual analysis and partially draw conclusions on things that happen when he's on the bench.

You throw around terms like excuses and spinning, but we are both doing the same thing. I gave contextual information, you gave contextual information. I drew conclusions based on the information available. You drew conclusions based on the information you provided.

Calling it excuses and spinning is just a way of questioning me as a participant in this discussion instead of actually meeting my arguments.

Well, you didn't present any data, you stated facts (which I've taken your word for)...

Fair enough... But like I said, those possession stats are rosy and all... they're all positive... but it ultimately really doens't matter if it doesn't translate to production. That was my point.

I respect you as a poster, and agree with you on most things (outside of Nylander)... I want Nylander to succeed... I do appreciate how he is so skilled with the puck, and has good possession numbers. I just want to see it all result into actual production.

I really don't think Marleau weighs down anyone (despite that being a common belief around here). Marleau has consistently been at around 0.5 P/GP all season, and that is very respectable. Brown might be a bit of the anchor, but anchors don't seem to be impacting production of guys like Ennis and Moore.

The fact remains, Nylander hasn't shown to be more than a 50 point guy away from Matthews. At 7 million AAV, we NEED to expect much higher production then that.

 

[MyBudJT]

You want to hate on him, by all means. That's within your right

6 on the ice team mean nothing. It's the quality of those ice time. That includes 3 on3, that includes PP

Hyman and Kapanen numbers are deflated. They both have bunch of empty net goals or contributed to empty netters
Kapanen also kills PK and plays with our best center. One plays with Auston our franchise center and other plays with Tavares and Marner, who also our franchise players

Ennis has been out producing a lot of people, good for him. By that logic we don't need Kadri back at all.

Why is being critical perceived as hate?

I also disagree with your empty net point. You have to be good and trustworthy to be on the ice in empty net situations.

 

[MyBudJT]

This comment is true but highly unfair. I will just point to Karlson in Vegas. On 1st line he produces (Vegas). On 3rd/4th line not so much(Nashville). Many skilled players are like this. All you have to do is give Willy a couple decent forward partners and his numbers will be fine (maybe a point a game). Give him Kadri and Moore and i guarantee you he will produce. Give him Marleau and Brown well what can anyone do with 4th line scrubs.

But Nylanders' most common linemate this season HAS been Kadri...