Confirmed with Link: Leafs to sign Pär Lindholm

Man Bear Pig

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Yeah I just thought they should have experimented a little bit more so they perhaps have some answers for next year. Hyman off the firts line, Nylander at C, playing Leivo for a stretch etc
Babcock may not have a choice next year but to have Nylander at center, depending on what happens this summer obviously. One thing I do like that Babs looks for is having multiple centers play wing full-time. Faceoffs are a nightmare now and it helps when you lose players to injury. I'd be very surprised if a few more centers aren't added for depth this summer.
 

Hockey Crazy

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That's questionable. Sure, Nylander is a better player overall, and better winger than Bozak is a C... but we have such a small sample size for Nylander at C, that it's hard to conclude that at this point. He could become better, he has that potential.

Nothing quantifiably better?

Faceoff percentage - Bozak 53.6, Nylander 51.4%,
Power Play Points - Bozak 13 Nylander 12
Hits - Bozak 43 , Nylander 21,
Blocked shots, Bozak 28, Nylander 18,
Giveaways - Nylander 54, Bozak 42
Shootout - Bozak 5/6 , Nylander 1/5
Shootout Game Deciding Goals - Bozak 4, Nylander 1
Corsi, Bozak 53.3%, Nylander 51.4%
Fenwick Bozak 51.4%, Nylander 49%

I'm not trying to make any case that Bozak is better... but you did say NOTHING quantifiably better than Nylander.
A lot of those stats have proven to be negatives when evaluating a player. Hits usually means that you’re not playing with the puck as often and giveaways mean that you are. Go look at the leaders this year in giveaways and it likely contains the best players in the NHL.
 

Boutette

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That's questionable. Sure, Nylander is a better player overall, and better winger than Bozak is a C... but we have such a small sample size for Nylander at C, that it's hard to conclude that at this point. He could become better, he has that potential.

Nothing quantifiably better?

Faceoff percentage - Bozak 53.6, Nylander 51.4%,
Power Play Points - Bozak 13 Nylander 12
Hits - Bozak 43 , Nylander 21,
Blocked shots, Bozak 28, Nylander 18,
Giveaways - Nylander 54, Bozak 42
Shootout - Bozak 5/6 , Nylander 1/5
Shootout Game Deciding Goals - Bozak 4, Nylander 1
Corsi, Bozak 53.3%, Nylander 51.4%
Fenwick Bozak 51.4%, Nylander 49%

I'm not trying to make any case that Bozak is better... but you did say NOTHING quantifiably better than Nylander.

Please explain how any of that makes Bozak a quantifiably better *Center*? Does more hits, blocked shots, shoot out success make Bozak a better center? A lot of those stats have nothing to do with being a center and the rest are within what people would call a margin of error. You may fairly point to faceoff percentage, however that would amount to about 1 extra lost faceoff for Nylander every 3 games. And I will stand by my description and repeat that while Nylander can be expected to get better, Bozak is on the wrong side of 30 and can only decline at this point.
 

Boutette

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Given how well balanced the lines were and how great Matthews and Nylander play together, I don't blame Babs at all. What I'm wondering is if you bump Hyman off that line, then what do we have? Stacking lines is something Babcock has always hesitated to do. I get the whole balancing out the lines but there are certain times when maybe you're down or struggling offensively and it wouldn't hurt to stack the top 2 lines and overplay them. Like we saw with Boston and the Bergeron line.

The lines were just as well balanced when Brown was playing with Matthews, I don't think there's any arguable issue with Nylander moving to replace Bozak on a sheltered 3rd line and one of the new kids moving up to Matthews side to replace him. For instance, Hyman looked pretty good playing on his natural right wing with Johnsson on the left, so next year, with no forced Bozak crutch on the 3rd line, a Johnsson-Mathews-Hyman line could get a decent look while Nylander could slide between the likes of Grundstrom and Kapanen. Does Grundstrom-Nylander-Kapanen really seem a downgrade from JVR-Bozak-Brown?
 

Fogelhund

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A lot of those stats have proven to be negatives when evaluating a player. Hits usually means that you’re not playing with the puck as often and giveaways mean that you are. Go look at the leaders this year in giveaways and it likely contains the best players in the NHL.

Hit's are bad, and giving away the puck is good? Ok!!!
 

Fogelhund

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Please explain how any of that makes Bozak a quantifiably better *Center*? Does more hits, blocked shots, shoot out success make Bozak a better center? A lot of those stats have nothing to do with being a center and the rest are within what people would call a margin of error. You may fairly point to faceoff percentage, however that would amount to about 1 extra lost faceoff for Nylander every 3 games. And I will stand by my description and repeat that while Nylander can be expected to get better, Bozak is on the wrong side of 30 and can only decline at this point.


I didn't claim at any point that Bozak is better than Nylander, in fact, if you actually read what I posted, I said I wasn't making that case.

I'm not trying to make any case that Bozak is better...

But, you claimed the following.

There is nothing Bozak offer that is quantifiably better than what Nylander offers at center.

You stated, NOTHING Bozak offers, is better than what Nylander offers, at center. That isn't true. Some of what Bozak does, is better than what Nylander does at C. That doesn't make him a better C... or better player, but your statement is false, and quantified.

 

Hockey Crazy

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Hit's are bad, and giving away the puck is good? Ok!!!
The top 20 in GVA in the NHL this year included:
Brent Burns
Johnny Gaudreau
Matt Barzal
Erik Karlsson
PK Subban
Ivan Provorov
Leon Draisatl
Vincent Trochek

Top 20 in hits included:
Lucic
L. Schenn
Komarov
17 other scrubs...

I’ll let you decide who you’d like on your team.
 

Fogelhund

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The top 20 in GVA in the NHL this year included:
Brent Burns
Johnny Gaudreau
Matt Barzal
Erik Karlsson
PK Subban
Ivan Provorov
Leon Draisatl
Vincent Trochek

Top 20 in hits included:
Lucic
L. Schenn
Komarov
17 other scrubs...

I’ll let you decide who you’d like on your team.


Let's be frank... that's ridiculous to even bring up with these guys.
 

lifelonghockeyfan

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I kinda think the Leafs have to start Nylander at centre in October. In his exit interview this spring, I hope the Leafs tell him he's going to be center so he can get his mind into the position all summer long.
 

Hockey Crazy

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Let's be frank... that's ridiculous to even bring up with these guys.
Which guys? I was replying to you.

Giveaways typically are associated with players who like to hold the puck and look to make a move to set up plays rather than dump the puck... skill players aka Nylander.

Hits usually mean you are chasing the play and trying to stop an offensive cycle or chasing the puck to get it back. The team that led the NHL in hits this year? Montreal.
 

WTFMAN99

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Let's be frank... that's ridiculous to even bring up with these guys.

Which guys? I was replying to you.

Giveaways typically are associated with players who like to hold the puck and look to make a move to set up plays rather than dump the puck... skill players aka Nylander.

Hits usually mean you are chasing the play and trying to stop an offensive cycle or chasing the puck to get it back. The team that led the NHL in hits this year? Montreal.

100% accurate, you can't give the puck away if you don't have it. Yes sometimes you give away the puck when you try to make plays.

I think Datsyuk was even up there for giveaways a couple years but no one is going to accuse him of being bad defensively or soft. Dude has won everything.
 

moon111

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I've seen Bozak kill penalties. I've seen him make defensive play. I've also seen him mess up defensive plays.
The issue I have with Nylander... as a winger, he doesn't even try at times. He purposely cheats his defensive
assignments in order to be in position to create offense. It's like you pulled him from the `80's Leafs. I will
be glad to see Nylander succeed on center, but those who think it will work so perfectly must be looking
mostly at his offensive game. Because defensively, he still doesn't even care. Not that he'll mess up or not,
he just doesn't care. Putting him on center when he might be on the ice against McDavid, Giroux, Malkin,
MacKinnon, Crosby, Stamkos, Tavares... yikes! Sorry Nylander, you're not going to just out-score these
guys. They'll eat him up. Yes he was a +20... on a line that featured a +25 and a +22. Defensive assignments
win games.
 

Fogelhund

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Which guys? I was replying to you.

Giveaways typically are associated with players who like to hold the puck and look to make a move to set up plays rather than dump the puck... skill players aka Nylander.

Hits usually mean you are chasing the play and trying to stop an offensive cycle or chasing the puck to get it back. The team that led the NHL in hits this year? Montreal.

Yes, those with high giveaways, often have the puck on their stick a lot. Playmakers... actually Gardiner was #3 in the league in giveaways.... but you can't just look at the statistic and say, wow, he had a lot of giveaways, must be a fantastic player. Turning the puck over to the other team, on it's own, is not a good thing. You want to maintain possession.

Hits doesn't usually mean you are chasing the play, but it can mean that. Some pretty good physical players leading that list... with something like 280 hits over the season. To automatically conclude hitting is bad, is just weird.
 

highslot

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We don't know if Nylander can do it or not though. I think he can as I think he looks better at center, especially given the fact that he needs the puck to be at his most effective. But, we haven't seen him play center at the nhl level for long stretches. So it's not an automatic in my mind.

interesting breakdowns below. also iirc , his 22 games in 2015 were at centre:

How Has William Nylander Fared at Centre?

What moving Nylander to centre could look like for Leafs - Sportsnet.ca
 

DarkKnight

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Jan 17, 2017
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For the most part, Willie looked pretty good at center when he had that stint this year. Also true, Babcock clearly doesn't trust Willie at center for the long haul, his comment at the end of the year a further indication. Interesting to see how it plays out, my gut tells me Babs pushes for other options, if they aren't available then we try it.
 

Hockey Crazy

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Yes, those with high giveaways, often have the puck on their stick a lot. Playmakers... actually Gardiner was #3 in the league in giveaways.... but you can't just look at the statistic and say, wow, he had a lot of giveaways, must be a fantastic player. Turning the puck over to the other team, on it's own, is not a good thing. You want to maintain possession.

Hits doesn't usually mean you are chasing the play, but it can mean that. Some pretty good physical players leading that list... with something like 280 hits over the season. To automatically conclude hitting is bad, is just weird.
I’ll just say I value a guy who can work in the corners and be strong on the puck over a hitter.

Anyway I think the main issue with Bozak is that at the beginning of the year we saw him really struggle and I think most of us thought that he might be done. It wasn’t until Babcock found the limited time he could be used effectively where he started to play better. He’s only going to get worse since he is more of a finesse guy and I think we need someone who can play up or down in a lineup if needed. Sounds like Lindholm can be a scorer and grinder which is great for our 4c spot.

Putting Nylander in the 2 spot looks great but it does hurt our winger depth a bit because we’d have to load the top line with our two best players. It all depends on whether Johnsson and Kapanen can develop into legitimate top 6 wingers.
 

Fogelhund

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I’ll just say I value a guy who can work in the corners and be strong on the puck over a hitter.

Anyway I think the main issue with Bozak is that at the beginning of the year we saw him really struggle and I think most of us thought that he might be done. It wasn’t until Babcock found the limited time he could be used effectively where he started to play better. He’s only going to get worse since he is more of a finesse guy and I think we need someone who can play up or down in a lineup if needed. Sounds like Lindholm can be a scorer and grinder which is great for our 4c spot.

Putting Nylander in the 2 spot looks great but it does hurt our winger depth a bit because we’d have to load the top line with our two best players. It all depends on whether Johnsson and Kapanen can develop into legitimate top 6 wingers.

I'd agree with pretty much everything that you've said here. Note, I took exception to your claim that Nylander was better, in EVERY quantifiable manner.

I'd particularly agree with you, that moving Nylander to C, is challenge with the wingers, and I particularly like him on Matthews line. It would be nice to grab Thornton for a year, or two... until either Lindholm can prove he is more than a #4C, or Aaltonen, or some unknown at the current time. (I'm not a Tavares pipe dream guy, but, if he were willing to take a more reasonable, sub 10 contract... sure)
 

Trapper

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For the most part, Willie looked pretty good at center when he had that stint this year. Also true, Babcock clearly doesn't trust Willie at center for the long haul, his comment at the end of the year a further indication. Interesting to see how it plays out, my gut tells me Babs pushes for other options, if they aren't available then we try it.
It's imperative that Babcock and the new GM are on the same page as to Nylander center or winger.
It has a major impact on if you need to address the 3C spot or not. It needs to be figured out.
 
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Hockey Crazy

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I'd agree with pretty much everything that you've said here. Note, I took exception to your claim that Nylander was better, in EVERY quantifiable manner.

I'd particularly agree with you, that moving Nylander to C, is challenge with the wingers, and I particularly like him on Matthews line. It would be nice to grab Thornton for a year, or two... until either Lindholm can prove he is more than a #4C, or Aaltonen, or some unknown at the current time. (I'm not a Tavares pipe dream guy, but, if he were willing to take a more reasonable, sub 10 contract... sure)
On paper, a guy like Thornton (or Tanev in other threads) look great, but it seems too likely that they get injured. If that happens at the wrong time, we could be left in bad spot with minimal C depth. I was hoping for a guy like backlund but I know that’s a more expensive option. Riley Nash would be awesome.
 

Boutette

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I'd agree with pretty much everything that you've said here. Note, I took exception to your claim that Nylander was better, in EVERY quantifiable manner.

I'd particularly agree with you, that moving Nylander to C, is challenge with the wingers, and I particularly like him on Matthews line. It would be nice to grab Thornton for a year, or two... until either Lindholm can prove he is more than a #4C, or Aaltonen, or some unknown at the current time. (I'm not a Tavares pipe dream guy, but, if he were willing to take a more reasonable, sub 10 contract... sure)

How are Aaltonen or Lindholm going to get the chance to prove anything if they never get the chance to play because the team is repeatedly stocking up on overpriced veterans to play instead of them.
 
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Boutette

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I’ll just say I value a guy who can work in the corners and be strong on the puck over a hitter.

Anyway I think the main issue with Bozak is that at the beginning of the year we saw him really struggle and I think most of us thought that he might be done. It wasn’t until Babcock found the limited time he could be used effectively where he started to play better. He’s only going to get worse since he is more of a finesse guy and I think we need someone who can play up or down in a lineup if needed. Sounds like Lindholm can be a scorer and grinder which is great for our 4c spot.

Putting Nylander in the 2 spot looks great but it does hurt our winger depth a bit because we’d have to load the top line with our two best players. It all depends on whether Johnsson and Kapanen can develop into legitimate top 6 wingers.

We have a veritable shitload/crapton of winger depth. putting Nylander at center doesn't hurt or winger depth in the slightest.
 
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Fogelhund

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We have a veritable ****load/crapton of winger depth. putting Nylander at center doesn't hurt or winger depth in the slightest.

Having depth, is a lot different than having elite, or at minimum, very good talent there.
 

Fogelhund

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How are Aaltonen or Lindholm going to get the chance to prove anything if they never get the chance to play because the team is repeatedly stocking up on overpriced veterans to play instead of them.

Fourth line? Marlies? If you are so worried about Thornton injuries... they'll get time.
 

Hockey Crazy

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We have a veritable ****load/crapton of winger depth. putting Nylander at center doesn't hurt or winger depth in the slightest.
It certainly hurts our high end depth.

Hyman marner
Marleau brown
Kapanen Johnsson
Grundstrom???

So on the top line we look good. Kadri line all of a sudden turns to a grinding line... nylander I assume would C kap and Andreas... could be a good line but very unproven.

Every line that marner joined became a scoring threat. By putting him with Matthews, we can no longer roll 3 scoring lines.
 

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