Leafs biggest issue... Fan expectations set by the team

[diceman934]

I agree, we're not done yet. I do think Babcock deserves some criticism at this point. I say this as someone who has defended him all year and I don't want to go overboard here either. However, when a team shows as poorly as we did in game 1, some of the blame rests with the coach IMO. I know he's not on the ice and so on but still, it's his job to prepare the team and they didn't look prepared. And Kadri lost his cool, if I'm the coach I have a long sit down with Kadri before the playoffs and make sure he 100% understands that he simply has to keep his cool no matter what. Anyhow, not blaming Babcock for the loss(es), just saying he doesn't get off scot-free as there's plenty of blame to go around and some of it lands on him.

I also thought we looked a lot better last year against WSH than we have so far. Those were tight games and we came pretty close to beating them, certainly a lot closer than we are now. JMHO.

Sorry Gary Babcock has not coach them to be afraid and that has been the biggest difference fear. Gutless play is on the players and not the coach. Far to many have been on Babcock for playing Hyman with Mathews and Nylander yet Hyman was the only one of the 3 to show up! Babs got ripped for starting Komo over Johnnson when he was the softest player on the ice by a wide margin he turn away from the puck several times skated to middle ice when he was to be on the boards and only attempted a few stick checks.

It is easy to blame the coach but it is usually that people do not want to admit that we have players lacking in a key area and it is not a coach able area. Either you are willing to play to win or you are not hopefully we play with some pride at home and we might just be able to get back in this series with last change. I look to see Martin dressed as even Levio with Johnnson back in the press box where he belongs.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Our fan base and media are rather foolish. The games didn’t go well. Ok. We forget that the team is 2 years removed from a last place finish, has set all time franchise records and. Our best players are 20,20,21,23.

They are learning and growing and doing an amazing job of it. No other team has done it like this successfully. We are giving the team a chance to win and not cutting themselves off by not selling off the ufas. We are matching up against a top team and it isn’t going well. Ok.

What we forget is...... Boston hasn’t won a series in how long? Their best players are experienced. They have won but also failed. A lot. They aren’t this super team that we won’t be able to beat. They have incredible momentum this year. Just like Ottawa last year. Look where they ended up..... this is the same team that got beat by Ottawa last year.

Look at Winnipeg. They are the exact same team this year as last. Huge difference. Their team got embarrassed and came back strong.

We have some holes to fill. We all new it. Lou has been conservative and traded extra picks we got from Polak to give the team some experience, but not mortgage the future. People are going to be calling for “trade willy for a shutdown d” and laughing at the oil for hall.

Our future core of

Johnson. Matthews. Marner
Grundstrom Nylander. Kapanen
Hyman. Gauthier. Brown.
Bracco.


Rielly. Lilly
Dermott

Sparks
Is incredible. We have so many prospects that I can’t even list them. The world isn’t ending, win or lose. And the series isn’t over yet

I thought similarly last week. Even if we get swept by the Bruins, we still have a very young talented core who will continue to grow. I didn't think we were quite there yet, and that we'd likely lose to Boston.

What I didn't expect in a million years... in a MILLION years... was for our young core to turn into these gutless, heartless, cowardly, spineless utter disgraces.

So now I'm conflicted. In just two games, I've turned from the happiest I've ever been as a leaf fan, to outright questioning the character of our young core and wondering if the rebuild was a failure.

Last year (when we were playing the f***ing Presidents Trophy winner and we had 7 rookies in key roles), I would have forgiven such a performance. But a regression this big in year two? Unacceptable.

As I said in another thread... The Sharks 10 years ago were an example of a team that had elite talent that performed well in the regular season, but disappeared in the playoffs. I'm not saying (yet) that's what Matthews and Nylander are. I'm just saying that many of us are getting that first inkling of worry that these guys just weren't meant for the playoffs.

Unreasonable optimism from fans like you will not change what they really are. But I guess we'll have to wait and see. If Matthews and Co. remain so pathetically invisible in the next two games, we're going to have to accept we probably have a Sharks situation and the rebuild was a failure.

But hopefully that's not what happens.

 

[Stephen]

Blame Marleau is a joke he is doing his part. Now if he was a heart surgeon then maybe we can blame him.

Marleau track record with The Sharks was great. He is not the problem and we are not in year two of the rebuild we are in year 4 it started when we fired Carlyle. We tanked two years in a row and this is now two years after tanking and drafting Mathews.

There’s no “blame” going on. The Leafs might just not be ready to be a contender and Marleau doesn’t have the track record.

 

[diceman934]

There’s no “blame” going on. The Leafs might just not be ready to be a contender and Marleau doesn’t have the track record.

Marleau was not the Sharks so his teams record is not his. He also has been among a small few who have competed so blaming him is funny.

Blame is shared among many starting with the disappearing Nylander, he has not been competitive at all. Mathews payed the same way for 5 periods but did play more physical in the 3rd. Players are to blame as they have failed to show that they are willing to pay the price to win.

It is frustrating to watch a few players pull the chute when going for the puck to avoid a check at all cost and then people still blaming the coach for this. Then these same people blame him for not dressing softer players. Johnnson should not dress another game in this series he is among the softest player in the league and I would bet management thinks the same thing and will package him up to get a hockey player, it is a shame as he has skill and can skate but is as soft as anyone I have ever seen play. Boo is all that it takes and he skated away to avoid a hit.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Marleau was not the Sharks so his teams record is not his. He also has been among a small few who have competed so blaming him is funny.

Blame is shared among many starting with the disappearing Nylander, he has not been competitive at all. Mathews payed the same way for 5 periods but did play more physical in the 3rd. Players are to blame as they have failed to show that they are willing to pay the price to win.

It is frustrating to watch a few players pull the chute when going for the puck to avoid a check at all cost and then people still blaming the coach for this. Then these same people blame him for not dressing softer players. Johnnson should not dress another game in this series he is among the softest player in the league and I would bet management thinks the same thing and will package him up to get a hockey player, it is a shame as he has skill and can skate but is as soft as anyone I have ever seen play. Boo is all that it takes and he skated away to avoid a hit.

I find your first sentence interesting. We can't judge Marleau based on his "teams" failure (that he was captain of). And we can't judge the leafs "team" based on our players failures.
So we can't judge anything. I guess the leafs are the "best", regardless of facts, stats, and observations.

And Marleau HAS been invisible so far.

I mean, having a vet to mentor our youngsters is a good idea. But choosing a guy with a legacy of underperforming in the playoffs is questionable.

 

[Stephen]

The issue I see with the Leafs is they seem like a collection of individuals who are not clicking as a cohesive unit. Contrast that with Boston. Their guys seem to all be playing at a certain uniformity in effort, pace, physicality, driving to the net and back checking. We all talk about the veteran Bruins but they have at least 9 guys in their early 20s who are all excelling in their roles. Leaf players are all doing their own random things as individuals.

 

[Stephen]

I find your first sentence interesting. We can't judge Marleau based on his "teams" failure (that he was captain of). And we can't judge the leafs "team" based on our players failures.
So we can't judge anything. I guess the leafs are the "best", regardless of facts, stats, and observations.

And Marleau HAS been invisible so far.

I mean, having a vet to mentor our youngsters is a good idea. But choosing a guy with a legacy of underperforming in the playoffs is questionable.

I don’t know why Leaf fans need to come defend Marleau’s playoff history. What Diceman said about Marleau is what every Sharks apologist said about Marleau and Thornton every spring for a decade and a half.

He does his thing, does his part, yet his team goes nowhere.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Blame Marleau is a joke he is doing his part. Now if he was a heart surgeon then maybe we can blame him.

Marleau track record with The Sharks was great. He is not the problem and we are not in year two of the rebuild we are in year 4 it started when we fired Carlyle. We tanked two years in a row and this is now two years after tanking and drafting Mathews.

There a few folks around here that will chastise anyone suggesting that we tanked.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

The issue I see with the Leafs is they seem like a collection of individuals who are not clicking as a cohesive unit. Contrast that with Boston. Their guys seem to all be playing at a certain uniformity in effort, pace, physicality, driving to the net and back checking. We all talk about the veteran Bruins but they have at least 9 guys in their early 20s who are all excelling in their roles. Leaf players are all doing their own random things as individuals.

I have been thinking about this same point. Looks like other teams have been drafting and developing well. This is by no means the exclusive domain of the Leafs.

 

[Legion34]

The issue I see with the Leafs is they seem like a collection of individuals who are not clicking as a cohesive unit. Contrast that with Boston. Their guys seem to all be playing at a certain uniformity in effort, pace, physicality, driving to the net and back checking. We all talk about the veteran Bruins but they have at least 9 guys in their early 20s who are all excelling in their roles. Leaf players are all doing their own random things as individuals.

But that’s the point. They have Guys excelling in secondary roles. Behind hungry vet leaders who have been through the ups and downs before. That’s a totally different ballgame than what we have. We have tried to insulate with leaders in secondary roles ultimately our guys need their reps. That’s it.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Our best players are 20,20,21,23.

They are learning and growing and doing an amazing job of it. No other team has done it like this successfully.

Their best players are experienced.

We have so many prospects that I can’t even list them.

Boston has 10 players on their roster that are 25 years of age or younger. I think we make too much of the idea that other teams don't have young players and a (sizable) number of good young prospects in their system. About the only way that this could actually occur is for the other teams to stop drafting for a few years. I think we are being a little willfully naive when it comes to this.

 

[Stephen]

I have been thinking about this same point. Looks like other teams have been drafting and developing well. This is by no means the exclusive domain of the Leafs.

I think it also underscores the fact that we can’t make those Boyle and Plekanec type deals any more. If anything save them for a big addition or just use the picks. Those 2 extra seconds could be 2x more Travis Dermott’s or Sebastian Aho’s. We can’t bleed assets out and take away from the youth movement which needs to be constant.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Maybe you'd be watching and NOT thinking "we'd be winning." Just thinking, ok... got work to do. Future looks good though.

Instead, we endure relentless criticism of Babcock or various US conspiracies against our players and other such silliness that abounds in the PGT

Or posters who continually rag on the only core guy who plays that playoff kinda game

 

[Prince N]

Did you just say we should put Matt Martin in the lineup?

Yup..and have his shadow and get the in the face one of the big 3. Hit them, face wash them, bergeron kiss them. That will flip the script

 

[Stephen]

I thought similarly last week. Even if we get swept by the Bruins, we still have a very young talented core who will continue to grow. I didn't think we were quite there yet, and that we'd likely lose to Boston.

What I didn't expect in a million years... in a MILLION years... was for our young core to turn into these gutless, heartless, cowardly, spineless utter disgraces.

So now I'm conflicted. In just two games, I've turned from the happiest I've ever been as a leaf fan, to outright questioning the character of our young core and wondering if the rebuild was a failure.

That's a bit harsh based on two bad games on the road, but they are coming across a bit like the young Quebec Nordiques back in 1993.

 

[Pookie]

Or posters who continually rag on the only core guy who plays that playoff kinda game

Yep. I will “rag on” those who play that kind of game.

Marchand. Ulf Samuelson. Claude Lemieux. All of them.

I’ve got a Brad Smith jersey.... assuming you know who he is.... you think I am against the tough stuff?

No sir. I’m against the cheap shot artists.

 

[HellasLEAF]

The funny thing is that I don’t think Boston is that good. I am not impressed by their forward depth, their defense isn’t anything to write home about. It is adequate, not great. They look like they are skating in quick sand often.

The Leafs are just too soft to compete. Their players are not willing to pay the price and the management have no clue what playoff hockey is about. It’s like they are trying to reinvent the wheel and prove that they can win with the softest team ever assembled.

I'm sorry but I cannot take you seriously with an opening statement like that. I did not read the rest of your comment.

 

[HellasLEAF]

I think until the series is over, that's the time where you can draw conclusions and evaluations. People are just venting and overreacting at this very moment. This fanbase is very good at reacting to the moment.

I'm interested to see how they act on home ice, that might be their final test for the season and they got to show what they can do.

Agreed!

 

[frog]

I remember when Gretzky, Messier, Coffey and Kurri carried the team only to get swept by the islanders...Yeah they won the cup the next year, so please chill the f*** out. If Gretzky and the 80s oilers can get swept in their early 20s so can marner, nylander and mathews. This isnt some shameful, embarrassing act of cowardice. Its called learning how to win in the playoffs

 

[Menzinger]

Johnnson will not be around long based on no ability to be a hockey player far to soft. Sparks will not be here next year an AHL goalie. The goat is as good as gone he will be in Europe soon enough.

Nylander has proven thus far that we will not sign him for term unless it is less then 5m per as he is magic at disappearing when the going gets tough. He has effectively saved us a lot of money this summer as he has shown that he is afaid to even give a check never mined take a check. He has the rest of these playoffs to figure it out or he is looking at a short term deal.

Nylander has played about the same as Matthews and I highly doubt these first two games are going to be a major factor in any contract negotiation (for either player).

The young guys have played in only 8 NHL playoff games, but early to say they have bad habits here, no? Post season play takes a period of adjustment to get used to.

 

[thewave]

Nylander has played about the same as Matthews and I highly doubt these first two games are going to be a major factor in any contract negotiation (for either player).

The young guys have played in only 8 NHL playoff games, but early to say they have bad habits here, no? Post season play takes a period of adjustment to get used to.

These PO will play a big factor in monies. How could they not, we needed them to show up. We trusted them. They both have done nothing.

 

[Stephen]

I remember when Gretzky, Messier, Coffey and Kurri carried the team only to get swept by the islanders...Yeah they won the cup the next year, so please chill the **** out. If Gretzky and the 80s oilers can get swept in their early 20s so can marner, nylander and mathews. This isnt some shameful, embarrassing act of cowardice. Its called learning how to win in the playoffs

That was in the finals against one of the all time great teams in hockey, not no showing the first two games in April before anyone's even grown a playoff 5 o'clock shadow.

 

[Menzinger]

These PO will play a big factor in monies. How could they not, we needed them to show up. We trusted them. They both have done nothing.

Theyre also just sophomores under the age of 22.

If these were a bunch of guys in the middle of their primes it would be one thing, but it’s not the case.

 

[thewave]

Theyre also just sophomores under the age of 22.

If these were a bunch of guys in the middle of their primes it would be one thing, but it’s not the case.

We were just saying 22 is the new prime. It's why we pay Eichel 10m a year. Now because it's gone the other way they are just kids still and how about all the vet insulation? Didn't you say that matters? The best players are no shows. 0 to 20 vs Bergeron man. In 2 games.

 

[Buds17]

Not in the same boat at all. Not even in the same sea, for that matter.
They’ve all be playing hockey all their lives - compete should be in their DNA not timidity.

Let’s see if the Leafs can come out and punch Boston in the mouth or will they roll over and die.

Definitely. I just mean that they are also down 2-0. Their games and scores have been more competitive, yet they still were on the losing end for both games. The Avs, Leafs (and Devils, Ducks, Wild and Kings) have to win four straight or four of the next five.