Confirmed with Link: Leafs acquire Muzzin for Grundstrom, Durzi and a 2019 first round pick Pt 2

[Zybalto]

Muzzin: 15gms, 7pts (38pt pace), +5, 53.3cf%, 53.1scf%

Last night:

57.69cf%, 76.92%scf%, 77.98hdcf%, 20%ozs%.

 

[93WrapAround]

Just want to comment that last night the Muzzin/Zaitsev had the best underlying numbers of any pairing on either team....combined with the fact that they had the highest amount of defensive zone starts on either team.

I dont understand this fanbase sometimes.

This literally proves underlying stats cannot be depended on for adequate player evaluation. He had a very tough game, as evidenced by the fact that TSN ex-NHL analysts decided to speak about it during the intermission and how he needs to be better than last night. Eye test always trumps statistics when coming from experienced/knowledgeable eyes.

It also proves, as is the case with the other Jake, that big hiccups/brainfarts can override an otherwise solid game. You can play a 90-95% good game and have two brutal giveaways or mistakes and it turns that game into a very bad one quickly.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Doesn't really negate my overall point, does it? The two best d-men don't always play on the same pairing.

Agree with you on that point. Often, its which player can compliment and work well with the other player. If you look at some of the #2 D's out there, they are often not the 2nd best defender, but they are good line mate when played with the #1 i.e., the styles of play compliment/supplement each other.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

When we first saw him in action after the trade we saw a few things...big hits and lots of slap shots. Now after Babs told him we don't do those type of things here...he is playing like crapola. That short handed goal is on him IMO. He barely made an effort to go after the puck when he muffed the pass at the blueline. I think the guy is getting SLOWER if that is even possible...Whoever signs this guy to an extension is going to be really sorry...he would barely beat out a 38yr Hainsey in a foot race.

He came from a system that had forwards that were defensively responsible...we don't have that going for us in our system. So, it made him look better than he really is playing in LA's system compared to playing in ours.

I don't understand how a guy could go from laying out big hits to being hit so quickly. I have a feeling its Babs who tells them to stick check and blah blah because a guy named Nick Lidstrom used to do that and he was the best. You would think the guy is either injured or just plain confused on how to play in this messed up system we have going here. I can't figure out which one is the issue.

The different systems could be a point. Same with the speed, but experience and positioning can mitigate that issue to at least some degree. Not sure about some of the other stuff. Acquiring a LD versus a RD which was the greater need might be worth mentioning a little more.

 

[egd27]

Just want to comment that last night the Muzzin/Zaitsev had the best underlying numbers of any pairing on either team....combined with the fact that they had the highest amount of defensive zone starts on either team.

I dont understand this fanbase sometimes.

What don't you understand?

He made a bad pinch that resulted in a goal. In the land of HF, that means he needs to be either bag skated, traded, or sent to Robidas Island.

It doesn't matter what possible positives he may have had.

Just think, 2 weeks ago guys here were heading out to buy Muzzin sweaters based on a big hit and a slap shot that went in.

 

[93WrapAround]

What don't you understand?

He made a bad pinch that resulted in a goal. In the land of HF, that means he needs to be either bag skated, traded, or sent to Robidas Island.

It doesn't matter what possible positives he may have had.

Just think, 2 weeks ago guys here were heading out to buy Muzzin sweaters based on a big hit and a slap shot that went in.

Or maybe he actually had a bad game and trying to refute that with statistics after we all witnessed it last night along with the entire TSN panel is just ridiculous? Maybe lets just call a spade a spade? Do we need to shelter him so much that we can't admit that he needs to get better and MAYBE just hasn't played up to expectations yet? I know, it seems scary at first to provide some honest criticism or feedback to one of our own (him, Dubas, Babcock, whoever), but it actually doesn't mean you hate them, or the team, or you want them to fail, or whatever other crazy narrative.

 

[Loosie]

15 games....

this fanbase has no patience.

 

[CabanaBoy5]

I was expecting more of an impact and am really quite surprised at how slow he is. I think he was insulated by a defensively savvy group of forwards when he won the cup with LA. Last night we needed him to hammer a few players, and instead, he was hammered a few times. His shot aside from that one goal doesn't get through to the net and if it does it has no power on it. He has not come as advertised and I think every Leaf fan should agree that he's been a huge disappointment based on that.

 

[Mitchy]

I think he's been decent to pretty good.

For the most part, I think he does play his position well and is a good contributor, but he is gaffe prone and tries to do too much at times. That's something Kings fans warned us about and we'll have to live with.

I think he would be much better if he didn't move up and down on the d pairings so much. Give him a consistent partner.

I'm also disappointed he was let go on Rielly's pairing so quick. Yes, they had some problems, but for the most part, I thought they were an impactful pairing. With Gardiner and Dermott being injured, there's no way they'll be back together now, but hopefully once they come back, we'll give them a few more looks.

 

[egd27]

Or maybe he actually had a bad game and trying to refute that with statistics after we all witnessed it last night along with the entire TSN panel is just ridiculous? Maybe lets just call a spade a spade? Do we need to shelter him so much that we can't admit that he needs to get better and MAYBE just hasn't played up to expectations yet? I know, it seems scary at first to provide some honest criticism or feedback to one of our own (him, Dubas, Babcock, whoever), but it actually doesn't mean you hate them, or the team, or you want them to fail, or whatever other crazy narrative.

There is a big difference between honest criticism and the ridiculous hot takes that dominate any GDT where the Leafs aren't up by 3 goals.

I was referring to the latter. If you feel that I insulted your honest criticism, I apologize.

 

[Gabriel426]

15 games....

this fanbase has no patience.

15 games is like 30 times(GMT and Post Game threads) for Leafs Nations to call out a player. Lol.

 

[93WrapAround]

There is a big difference between honest criticism and the ridiculous hot takes that dominate any GDT where the Leafs aren't up by 3 goals.

I was referring to the latter. If you feel that I insulted your honest criticism, I apologize.

I agree with the hot takes point. I didn't feel you insulted my opinion because I don't think I ever said the guy is horrible, just hasn't met my expectations thus far. BUT, my response was in that manner because while I don't think hot takes are prudent or necessary, I also don't think just shoving out stats to defend a guy from criticism is either. In fact, it's almost just as bad imo. There's usually ALWAYS some stat you can bring up that supports an argument, whichever way. To me bringing up stats arguing Muzzin had the best game of our D-core last night when it was painfully obvious he had a bad game is just as bad as the negative hot takes because they are about as equally useful.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

would be so much better if Dubas didn't make this trade. Who wouldn't want to see a d-core of:
Rielly-Hainsey
Marincin-Zaitsev
Ozhiganov-Holl

for the next month+

 

[1specter]

Who's gonna pair up with Rielly? Please don't say Hainsey

Trust me, I'm on the same page as you....

 

[hoglund]

would be so much better if Dubas didn't make this trade. Who wouldn't want to see a d-core of:
Rielly-Hainsey
Marincin-Zaitsev
Ozhiganov-Holl

for the next month+

Sarcasm, right?

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

He looked better early on and not so great recently, but it's still a small sample so we'll see.

He is a vast improvement over Hainsey but I'm still concerned about his mediocre foot speed if there's a chance of re-signing him long term. Then again, Hainsey's nearly 38 and not a complete disaster so slow-footed D aren't completely extinct.

 

[SnizzNasty88]

So..Carl Grundstrom has 2 goals in his first 2 games with the Kings. Could it be possible that Dubas f***ed up here? Grundstrom was the one forward prospect I personally preferred not to get rid of, but wasn’t overly upset that we did because we got a solid defenseman that we desperately needed, but if Grundstrom keeps this up and becomes a good player, I’ll be upset.

 

[FlareKnight]

So..Carl Grundstrom has 2 goals in his first 2 games with the Kings. Could it be possible that Dubas ****ed up here? Grundstrom was the one forward prospect I personally preferred not to get rid of, but wasn’t overly upset that we did because we got a solid defenseman that we desperately needed, but if Grundstrom keeps this up and becomes a good player, I’ll be upset.

I don't really think it's a screw-up. There's a good chance all three pieces turn into something useful for LA. That's how it goes when making trades. It'd be nice to trade prospects that turn out to be pure garbage so you don't feel bad for giving them up. But the important thing is whether it was a good move for the Leafs. And at this point I'd say it is. They are already sitting a good young forward in Moore. The Leafs got a good player in Muzzin and they may have given up good players in return.

Not the first time and it won't be the last time we do that. We keep some young parts since you need them to supplement the roster. But we'll also trade some since we're moving into the "let's win" phase and need guys with more certainty attached to them than guys who may become good players.

Grundstrom may keep this up and be a good player in the NHL. Maybe he won't. But even if he does I think that's something we have to be able to live with. Every trade can't be a getting something for nothing scenario.

 

[Martin Skoula]

So..Carl Grundstrom has 2 goals in his first 2 games with the Kings. Could it be possible that Dubas ****ed up here? Grundstrom was the one forward prospect I personally preferred not to get rid of, but wasn’t overly upset that we did because we got a solid defenseman that we desperately needed, but if Grundstrom keeps this up and becomes a good player, I’ll be upset.

If we kept him, he would have still been in the AHL and would be lucky to land a 4th line role next year. He's got a good opportunity to impress in LA, he would have never gotten it here until someone above him got injured.

 

[The Best Leafs Ever]

I don't really think it's a screw-up. There's a good chance all three pieces turn into something useful for LA. That's how it goes when making trades. It'd be nice to trade prospects that turn out to be pure garbage so you don't feel bad for giving them up. But the important thing is whether it was a good move for the Leafs. And at this point I'd say it is. They are already sitting a good young forward in Moore. The Leafs got a good player in Muzzin and they may have given up good players in return.

Not the first time and it won't be the last time we do that. We keep some young parts since you need them to supplement the roster. But we'll also trade some since we're moving into the "let's win" phase and need guys with more certainty attached to them than guys who may become good players.

Grundstrom may keep this up and be a good player in the NHL. Maybe he won't. But even if he does I think that's something we have to be able to live with. Every trade can't be a getting something for nothing scenario.

So we are comparing Grundstrom to Moore now? WTF? Moore in his dreams can't think of becoming Grundstrom's caliber.

 

[SnizzMitch]

Should not have traded Grundstrom he looks goood, 2 goals in 2 nhl game.

Now, just watch that 1st round pick becoming the second coming of Wayne Gretzky.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

This literally proves underlying stats cannot be depended on for adequate player evaluation. He had a very tough game, as evidenced by the fact that TSN ex-NHL analysts decided to speak about it during the intermission and how he needs to be better than last night. Eye test always trumps statistics when coming from experienced/knowledgeable eyes.

It also proves, as is the case with the other Jake, that big hiccups/brainfarts can override an otherwise solid game. You can play a 90-95% good game and have two brutal giveaways or mistakes and it turns that game into a very bad one quickly.

To know if a player made a mistake is pretty trivial though, the best defensemen in the league have big hiccups that lead to goals against. I don’t think we want to sit here and shot on someone for being a human.

It’s much more useful to know if they make those mistakes at inordinate rates than other defensemen in the league, and despite that do they create more good than bad when they are on the ice. That’s where stats come in to supplement the eye test. You kind of need both to say anything useful.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I like Grundstrom, but it's kind of insane people are having second thoughts. The Leafs would have one ugly group of defensemen if not for Muzzin. Two goals from Grundstrom doesn't change that

 

[Scintillating10]

Muzzin makes team better. But can't see him being the difference between a cup and going out in first or second round? Way I see it just losing first round pick. They needed stud defenseman. I would added to the pick for a stud d-man. A Nylander, maybe a defenseman prospect for a annual Norris candidate. Big price to pay but what you have to do for 2 or 3 cups. They don't come cheap

 

[Brew]

So..Carl Grundstrom has 2 goals in his first 2 games with the Kings. Could it be possible that Dubas ****ed up here? Grundstrom was the one forward prospect I personally preferred not to get rid of, but wasn’t overly upset that we did because we got a solid defenseman that we desperately needed, but if Grundstrom keeps this up and becomes a good player, I’ll be upset.

You trade value for value.

We had a surplus of prospects, and a deficiency in defence. We traded a part of our surplus to get strengthen our deficiency.

Value for value, we may be able to re-sign Muzzin, but Grundstrom was one of our top-5 picks.

It's a good trade. He's played 2 games and scored 2 goals. Chiasson did the same with Dallas.