Leading Defensive Centers

[Canadiens1958]

Rudy Migay

Does Migay belong here? What evidence is there that he was even in the top-25 defensive forwards of his generation? he lasted in the NHL a very short time and while there he didn't contribute to a team that won anything.

Rudy Migay definitely belongs - look at the defensive record of the Harry Lumley era Maple Leafs. BTW, perhaps Van Islander meant Ron Stewart instead of Ron Murphy?

 

[Killion]

which he wouldn't touch, himself, of course.

God forbid. No compunctions against plying it on freely with the media though. Sports reporters of that era were notoriously under-paid, most "thirsty" much of the time. William Mara, a distiller who also owned a major liquor distribution company was on the Board of MLG and pretty much handled the "deliveries", but there was no question as to who was ordering it up. Reporters as well relied on the Leafs for travel & accommodations, a favorable story / spin resulting in a better berth on the train; a nicer hotel room, extra money for food/booze. I played amateur hockey with the son of a well known Toronto sportswriter who covered the Leafs under Smythe from the 30's to mid-50's; some truly bizarre & hilarious stories......

 

[VanIslander]

Metro Prystai spent years centering Detroit's vaulted checking line with Pavelich and Leswich on his wings.

 

[Killion]

Edgar Laprade

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Ken Mosdell

Excellent. I singled out Laprade earlier but I think I mightve over-looked or forgotten about Mosdell. Good job.

 

[VanIslander]

Before Prystai, Detroit's great checking center was 6'2 physical Glen Skov

 

[VanIslander]

The only Bruins defensive center I can think of during that era is Murray Oliver

Murray Oliver was a slick playmaking centre who could kill penalties and create chances on the power play. He was blessed with excellent hockey sense and scored over 700 career points on four different teams. The tricky forward was considered one of the best in the league at pulling off the fake pass.

He was a fine playmaker and defensive forward on the improved team that was being built around sensational youngster Bobby Orr.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=13887

 

[VanIslander]

Red Sullivan

Only four men in the 78-year history of the New York Rangers have served the team in the three capacities of player, captain and coach. One of them is George "Red" Sullivan. The others were: Bill Cook, Neil Colville and Phil Esposito.

Sullivan was a sparkplug center for the team from 1956 to 1961, a pesky and determined leader whose gritty style of play inspired teammates and fans alike. He was chosen captain of the team in only his second season in New York (1957-58) and he succeeded teammate and close friend Harry Howell in that capacity.

One of only five men in the history of the Rangers to wear uniform number seven before it was permanently retired in Rod Gilbert’s honor on March 9, 1977, Sullivan scored 59 goals and 150 assists for 209 points, along with 300 penalty minutes in 322 career games as a Ranger. He was a standout penalty killer with a stellar poke check.

He appeared in five NHL All-Star Games, including three straight, representing the Rangers from 1958 to 1960.

http://rangers.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=67677

 

[VanIslander]

Ray Getliffe played some center.

The 5-foot-11, 175-pounder was among the speediest forwards in the league, a skilled two-way performer, equally adept at attacking the enemy net or playing in a defensive role.

http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=489869

He was a fine goal scorer who could check and battle for the puck along the boards and in the slot.

The clever centre/left-winger scored 16 goals for Boston as a rookie in 1936-37 and remained a regular for two more years. In 1938-39 he formed a solid two-way line with Dit Clapper and Gord Pettinger helped Boston win its second Stanley Cup. A few months later he was traded to the Montreal Canadiens with Charlie Sands for Herb Cain. His first official duty for his new club was participating in the Babe Siebert Memorial Game on October 29, 1939.

Getliffe was a solid member of the Habs for six years before retiring in 1945. He hit double figures in goals every year and notched a personal best 28 in 1943-44 while skating with Murph Chamberlain and Phil Watson. He also helped Montreal finish first in the regular season standings twice and was a key member of their Stanley Cup triumph in 1944.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=12706

 

[VanIslander]

Charlie Burns had a few great checking years in Boston, though injuries plagued and stunted his career. Those may not have been his center ice poistion years though.

He became an outstanding utility man with the Bruins. Bruins coach Phil Watson used him to shadow the league's greatest stars Gordie Howe, Bobby Hull and Frank Mahovlich. Watson said Burns was a good man for the job because he was an excellent skater and didn't let anything get under his skin.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=12156

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bruins

The only Bruins defensive center I can think of during that era is Murray Oliver

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=13887

Bruins consider Fleming Mackell as well as Milt Schmidt. Cal Gardner was reliable.

 

[VanIslander]

Billy Reay

He often took on the opposition's top line in the O6 era as Montreal's 2nd line pivot, producing well offensively in his 8 years as a Hab, twice top-10 in assists, once top-10 in goals, four 40+ point seasons, tied the Rocket in playoff goals with 6 in their Stanley Cup Finals run in 1947 and came second in Habs goals to the Rocket in their 1951 Finals run, playing a more defensive role in their two cup wins.

... a gritty two-way center... rugged style of play

http://ourhistory.canadiens.com/player/Billy-Reay

Turnbull Cup MJHL Championship (1938)
Memorial Cup Championship (1938)
Allan Cup Championship (1944)
Stanley Cup Championships (1946 & 1953)

Cementing a spot for himself in Dick Irvin’s lineup, he remained a solid contributor in Montreal for the next eight seasons.

He scored 17 times in his first campaign in Montreal and ended the season as a Stanley Cup Champion, solidly ensconced on the team’s second line. Reay’s totals swelled as he found the twine 22 times in 1946-47, capping off his year with six postseason goals to tie Maurice Richard for the team lead while the Habs made it through to the Finals.

A crafty playmaker who played a tougher game than his small stature led opponents to believe, Reay was comfortable in traffic, with a precise passing ability that saw him rack up assists during his time with the Canadiens.

Game in and game out, the steadfast pivot performed in the clutch, notching 22 goals again in 1948-49, to lead all Habs in scoring. In 1951-52, Reay notched a career high 34 assists.

The 1952-53 campaign was Reay’s last as an NHL player. His career in Montreal culminated just as it had begun – with a Stanley Cup crown.

http://ourhistory.canadiens.com/player/Billy-Reay

 

[VanIslander]

Cully Dahlstrom

He was best known as a two-way center and a regular penalty killer.

http://blackhawkslegends.blogspot.com/2007/03/cully-dahlstrom.html

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ken Mosdell is a good choice and definitely one I overlooked.

I really don't see how you can consider Billy Reay one of the greatest defensive centers of all time, considering he played on the same team as Mosdell, and Mosdell got the tough assignements.

 

[VanIslander]

Ted "The Tick" Hampson

... After three years in a defensive checking role with the Rangers, he was taken by Detroit in the 1963 Intra League Draft by Detroit.

What he lacked in size, he more than made up for with quickness and agility on the ice, making him the perfect hound for checking other team's top offensive threats.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=12836

 

[Canadiens1958]

Home Ice Advantage

Ken Mosdell is a good choice and definitely one I overlooked.

I really don't see how you can consider Billy Reay one of the greatest defensive centers of all time, considering he played on the same team as Mosdell, and Mosdell got the tough assignements.

The issue is leading defensive centers. Mosdell missed significant parts of two seasons so someone had to step-up and it was Billy Reay.

Also you have to factor in home ice advantage when the home team has the last change and uses it to avoid match-ups. In the case of Mosdell it meant that both Billy Reay and Elmer Lach had to be able to handle the defensive responsibilities in such instances.

 

[VanIslander]

Billy Bell was "a solid defensive forward" who played center as well as right wing.

Charlie Sands played some center, was considered two-way, and has been praised for his checking ability.

Thus ends the guys I can think of today who deserve some mention in this conversation, centers from those eras who I recall getting praised for their defensive ability.

 

[Killion]

Awesome. And you pulled all of that off of a set of Sheriff Player Coins VanIslander?.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Billy Bell was "a solid defensive forward" who played center as well as right wing.

I don't think he can be called a "leading" defensive centre, though, since he played only two seasons as a starter.

 

[seventieslord]

as for my comments about Migay... they came at a time when I didn't realize VI was naming a dozen guys and not just Migay.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Good Contribution

Billy Bell was "a solid defensive forward" who played center as well as right wing.

Charlie Sands played some center, was considered two-way, and has been praised for his checking ability.

Thus ends the guys I can think of today who deserve some mention in this conversation, centers from those eras who I recall getting praised for their defensive ability.

Well done. Nice blend of players covering various roles from swingmen to depth players to solid defensive players touching all the eras under consideration.

A few comments. Billy Bell was one of the first depth players in the NHL. Recruited from the Montreal City Hockey League as a replacement player in the NHA during WWI then at various times was a depth player in the NHL. His basic contribution was that he could play two positions - C and RW and as a RHS fulfill certain responsibilities when needed at Center.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/bellbi01.html

Charlie Sands was a thirties /early forties version of Billy Bell but much more talented C/RW, RHS who could fulfill certain assignments at center.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/sandsch01.html

Again VanIslander well done.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

A few comments. Billy Bell was one of the first depth players in the NHL. Recruited from the Montreal City Hockey League as a replacement player in the NHA during WWI then at various times was a depth player in the NHL.

A few comments:

1. Bell was only one of the first depth players in the sense that he was a depth player when depth players began to be used. There's nothing special about him in that way.

2. He entered the NHA before WWI.

3. The only two seasons he was a regular (15/16 and 16/17 with the Wanderers, playing RW the first season and LW the next) he played for a very bad team, a team that was dead last in goals allowed both years.

Considering he was primarily a winger, and not really much of a player, and that the teams he played a lot for allowed boatloads of goals, again I'll object to his being included in a discussion of "leading defensive centres."

 

[VanIslander]

Considering he was primarily a winger, and not really much of a player, and that the teams he played a lot for allowed boatloads of goals, again I'll object to his being included in a discussion of "leading defensive centres."

You make a good case. Not many early NHLers were praised for their defensive ability. He was one. Now we have some reason to think the praise faint.

 

[VanIslander]

A summary of defensive centers mentioned so far:

Frank Nighbor
Frank Boucher
Joe Primeau
Milt Schmidt
Henri Richard
Dave Keon
Edgar Laprade
Ralph Backstrom
Orland Kurtenbach
Billy Harris
Fred Stanfield
Phil Goyette
Larry Popein
Bob Pulford
Stan Mikita
Teeder Kennedy
Edgar Laprade
Kenny Mosdell
Neil Colville
Mickey MacKay
Jack Walker
Red Kelly
Rudy Migay
Ken Mosdell
Metro Prystai
Glen Skov
Murray Oliver
Red Sullivan
Ray Getliffe
Charlie Burns
Fleming Mackell
Cal Gardner
Billy Reay
Cully Dahlstrom
Ted Hampson
Charlie Sands

 

[Canadiens1958]

Objections

A few comments:

1. Bell was only one of the first depth players in the sense that he was a depth player when depth players began to be used. There's nothing special about him in that way.

2. He entered the NHA before WWI.

3. The only two seasons he was a regular (15/16 and 16/17 with the Wanderers, playing RW the first season and LW the next) he played for a very bad team, a team that was dead last in goals allowed both years.

Considering he was primarily a winger, and not really much of a player, and that the teams he played a lot for allowed boatloads of goals, again I'll object to his being included in a discussion of "leading defensive centres."

Yet you fail to raise the same objections to players like Charlie Burns-Boston/Detroit, being considered strong defensively, who played on O6 teams that never made the playoffs and gave up goals aplenty.

You short Billy Bell in his NHA career - also played for the 1914-15 Senators, SC finalists.He may have entered before WWI but played because of WWI for the Wanderers.

In the NHL Billy Bell, played two games for the Wanderers then played for the Canadiens - 1 SC and Senators.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Yet you fail to raise the same objections to players like Charlie Burns-Boston/Detroit, being considered strong defensively, who played on O6 teams that never made the playoffs and gave up goals aplenty.

That's a red herring; my not having made those comments about another player do not make my comments on Bell less true. I certainly didn't argue the opposite with Burns, did I?

Besides that, the O6 is not my area of expertise. I generally leave it to others to comment on those players. As much as possible, I try to restrict myself to commenting on players I'm very familiar with, to avoid looking a fool by saying something silly.

Pre-1927 hockey is my particular area of expertise. Ask me about pretty much any player from that era and I'll have something to say.

You short Billy Bell in his NHA career - also played for the 1914-15 Senators, SC finalists.

He did play for the Senators. He played about half of regular-season games, and then didn't play at all in the playoffs. Are we going to attribute the Sens success to Bell on that basis?

In the NHL Billy Bell, played two games for the Wanderers then played for the Canadiens - 1 SC and Senators.

He would've barely played for the Canadiens in the Stanley Cup year. He was a third-string RW at that point, when teams still used starter-sub setups rather than rolling lines.

In his last two NHL seasons (which includes the above), Bell played 36 games for Montreal and recorded zero points and a single penalty. He clearly was playing a very small number of minutes, so did not contribute meaningfully to the Stanley Cup effort.