Leading Defensive Centers

[RabbinsDuck]

Well, what decade should be the cut off point? I mean lalonde, taylor, shore and morenz are being ranked where they are based on peer domination.

Me personally, i dont think shore's peak was any better than potvin's run from 75-79 or kelly's run from 1950-57, but he's being ranked in the top 10 based on his myth and the 4 harts, which were obviously a product of his era.

I largely agree - I personally devalue 20s/30s-early 40s players as I really feel the NHL did not reach a maturation point until the late 40s. I feel the depth of competition and number of elite talents started to really take off in the 50s.

For instance, most agree the Top players of the first half century (Morenz and Shore) are not on a similar level as the top players of the 2nd half of the century.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Boucher's generation of players from the 20s and first half of the 30s was very strong. The top end talent appears to have dropped off in the late 30s as great players retired, and it may not have reached that level agan until the 1950s.

Hard to say for sure of course, but in this case I don't think newer was always better in the NHL.

The impact of the Great Depression and WWII on player development may have been factors in this change.

I definitely heavily discount WWII years, More than I do the 20s and 30s, but I feel the 50s and 60s were very strong decades all-around.

A guy with exactly the same peer performance in the 20s/30s as a 50s+ player will always be behind in my ratings - though perhaps that is not entirely fair.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Not a mention of Red Kelly with Toronto yet?

 

[seventieslord]

I agree, and comparisons to Trottier or Clarke shouldnt even be made as A) they fall outside of the 67 cut-off date and B) the game as played during Primeau's and Boucher's era to even the 50's witnessed changes that significantly altered the prism of objective measurement through which we look back upon it today. The past is a strange country. They do things differently there.

Lets just take a look at these guys, neither one of which I believe belong on any list of top defensive forwards let alone centers, starting with Gentleman Joe Primeau, and heres my theory about that one; didnt even play organized hockey or skate seriously until he was 16. Excellent all-round athlete & sportsman of the ilk we find peppered throughout the history books of the late 19th, early 20th Century. Precisely the kind of guy Conn Smythe so admired & looked up to, he picked him for the Rangers' but was told "no thanks, and btw, your fired" by the powers that be in NYC. Ego bruised over being let go & New Yorks' rejection of Primeau (and there were others NY rejected), Smythe upon forming the Leafs included the reclamation of Primeau as it just wouldnt do to have his hockey smarts questioned on top of everything else.

Primeau was acquired by Smythe 1st thing, assigned to the Toronto Ravinas', a semi-pro squad that played at the Senior level. After 2yrs of "grooming", he was put on the Leafs top-line in between the tea-totaling Holier than Thou Charlie Conacher, another one of Smythes Hero's, and the womanizing, alcoholic reprobate Harvey "Busher" Jackson, Conny no doubt hoping Conachers' & Primeaus' Piety would somehow rub off on his wayward charge. The Kid Line. Meanwhile, that'd show the idiots in Manhattan just how "dumb" Smythe really wasnt in demanding a contract for Primeau.

And its right here where fact meets fiction & a Legend is Born, because Primeau was at best a workmanlike, intelligent but mediocre player who was "gifted" talented playmates. Over the intervening decades the revisionist history books have been written, Conn Smythe looking the Genius, when in fact, his motivations were entirely ulterior and had little to do with any real belief that Joe Primeau was the greatest Center in Leaf history. But By God Sir, old Conny would argue that he was, and pop you one across the jaw if you had the temerity to disagree with him about it. There were numerous Centers in the Leafs organization, elsewhere in the league at that time that couldve replaced Primeau & made the Leafs a better team for it. To fans of a certain age, I know my suggestion is sacri-religious & utterly contemptible. To you I have but 2 words; Eat Me.

I'll leave the Boucher chapter up to another.....

ok, but... what exactly is your theory based on?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I definitely heavily discount WWII years, More than I do the 20s and 30s, but I feel the 50s and 60s were very strong decades all-around.

A guy with exactly the same peer performance in the 20s/30s as a 50s+ player will always be behind in my ratings - though perhaps that is not entirely fair.

Do you mean all of the 1950s or just the mid-late 50s?

Because there is good reason to think that the talent pool in the first half of the 50s hadn't fully recovered from World War 2.

Basically, if I were to rank the talent pool pre-expansion, it would be something like:

Very strong:
Late 1950s - expansion

Strong:
Mid 1920s - Mid 1930s

Moderate:
End of World War I - Early 1920s
Late 30s - Beginning of World War II (Great Depression)
End of World War II - Mid 50s (War Recovery)

Weak:
1900 - World War I
World War II

Very Weak / Developing
Before 1900

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Do you mean all of the 1950s or just the mid-late 50s?

Because there is good reason to think that the talent pool in the first half of the 50s hadn't fully recovered from World War 2.

Basically, if I were to rank the talent pool pre-expansion, it would be something like:

Very strong:
Late 1950s - expansion

Strong:
Mid 1920s - Mid 1930s

Moderate:
End of World War I - Early 1920s
Late 30s - Beginning of World War II (Great Depression)
End of World War II - Mid 50s (War Recovery)

Weak:
1900 - World War I
World War II

Very Weak / Developing
Before 1900

That makes a lot of sense to me - though I think you might undervalue the late 40s - mid 50s too much. I'd have it as "strong".

 

[Killion]

Not a mention of Red Kelly with Toronto yet?

I did consider him Rabbins, and do remember his play with the Leafs, who I always think of playing alongside Frank Mahovlich, some pretty decent offensive seasons, the latters 48 goal season included. He was steady & dependable defensively as a Center and ya, I think your right, he deserves to be included in the 2nd tier of good ones. Interesting really, given his All Star Defence background, that Imlach didnt assign him that function almost exclusively. His primary role was to feed the Big 'M'. An interesting aside on Red Kelley; he never swore, was a former Golden Gloves Champion Boxer but never mixed it up much on the ice.

 

[seventieslord]

Do you mean all of the 1950s or just the mid-late 50s?

Because there is good reason to think that the talent pool in the first half of the 50s hadn't fully recovered from World War 2.

Basically, if I were to rank the talent pool pre-expansion, it would be something like:

Very strong:
Late 1950s - expansion

Strong:
Mid 1920s - Mid 1930s

Moderate:
End of World War I - Early 1920s
Late 30s - Beginning of World War II (Great Depression)
End of World War II - Mid 50s (War Recovery)

Weak:
1900 - World War I
World War II

Very Weak / Developing
Before 1900

I might drop WW2, I definitely like the collection of players from 1900-WW1, the two eras should definitely be in separate tiers.

also, there are always nice drops or rises from one level to another, except in the mid-50s, where it goes from moderate to very strong. there should probably be an intermediate period there.

 

[Killion]

ok, but... what exactly is your theory based on?

I grew up in Toronto & knew people directly involved with the Leafs, Marlies & St.Mikes, Markham & Weston organizations; players & coaches etc who knew & had dealt directly with Conn Smythe. Met the man. If you grew up in Toronto pretty much from about 1900 through to the late 60's you'd understand the High Edwardian mindsets that still dominated & prevailed within the community, from sports-church-school-business, culturally/socially. . Being of strong moral character circa 30's-60's in any tier of that particular organization was just as important as talent.

Smythe was a piston of a little guy, his way or the highway, often challenging and sometimes getting into physical altercations with anyone who he felt was disrespecting the crest or one of his teams/players, right into his 60's in fact. He took it personally. Very proud man. Though things couldnt have worked out better for him in terms of getting fired in New York, I think my speculation about Primeau is pretty well dead-bang-on. A great individual, all-round athlete & sportsman, but a fairly average hockey player from what people who did see him play wrote contemporaneously, at the time about him.

We also know how Smythe felt about Conacher (a God walking the Earth) & Jackson based on his autobiography & the fact that he resigned as Chairman of the HHOF in 1971 over Bushers' induction. The pieces of the puzzle are all there, just a matter of putting them together.

 

[seventieslord]

but a fairly average hockey player from what people who did see him play wrote contemporaneously, at the time about him.

I have not seen such things. I've seen him described as an integral part of the line, or the workhorse of the line.

We also know how Smythe felt about Conacher (a God walking the Earth) & Jackson based on his autobiography & the fact that he resigned as Chairman of the HHOF in 1971 over Bushers' induction. The pieces of the puzzle are all there,

I don't follow what this is supposed to tell us about Primeau.

 

[Killion]

I have not seen such things. I've seen him described as an integral part of the line, or the workhorse of the line..... I don't follow what this is supposed to tell us about Primeau.

He's been described as the "defensive conscience" of the Kid Line; "work horse" I havent seen. Why would you put a "work horse" in between 2 thoroughbreds when you could have 3 running full guns ablazing?. ..... And what should that last bit tell you about Primeau?. Absolutely nothing. What it should give you is a clearer understanding about Conn Smythe, how he thought & operated, why he inserted "work horse Joe" in between 2 of the then top scoring forwards & stars in the league. Primeau was no defensive specialist of note; nor was he a terribly creative offensive center, and I certainly dont buy any guff that Jackson & Conacher needed a dray horse down the middle as a steadying influence.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Joe Primeau

He's been described as the "defensive conscience" of the Kid Line; "work horse" I havent seen. Why would you put a "work horse" in between 2 thoroughbreds when you could have 3 running full guns ablazing?. ..... And what should that last bit tell you about Primeau?. Absolutely nothing. What it should give you is a clearer understanding about Conn Smythe, how he thought & operated, why he inserted "work horse Joe" in between 2 of the then top scoring forwards & stars in the league. Primeau was no defensive specialist of note; nor was he a terribly creative offensive center, and I certainly dont buy any guff that Jackson & Conacher needed a dray horse down the middle as a steadying influence.

Context of the 1929-30 season and the start of the forward pass era. Conacher and Jackson, no NHL experience, Jackson still Jr age. Primeau limited NHL experience. Looks like an early training camp experimental line. Kids could skate, forward passing, no offside rules until early season changes.

Granted Con(n) spun it as part of his genius.

 

[Hardyvan123]

He's been described as the "defensive conscience" of the Kid Line; "work horse" I havent seen. Why would you put a "work horse" in between 2 thoroughbreds when you could have 3 running full guns ablazing?. ..... And what should that last bit tell you about Primeau?. Absolutely nothing. What it should give you is a clearer understanding about Conn Smythe, how he thought & operated, why he inserted "work horse Joe" in between 2 of the then top scoring forwards & stars in the league. Primeau was no defensive specialist of note; nor was he a terribly creative offensive center, and I certainly dont buy any guff that Jackson & Conacher needed a dray horse down the middle as a steadying influence.

Makes one wonder on the actual competitive level of the league where a guy can start skating at age 16 and have a HHOF career based on 7 NHL seasons.

I think the Hall got Conned on this induction into the Hall.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He's been described as the "defensive conscience" of the Kid Line; "work horse" I havent seen. Why would you put a "work horse" in between 2 thoroughbreds when you could have 3 running full guns ablazing?. ..... And what should that last bit tell you about Primeau?. Absolutely nothing. What it should give you is a clearer understanding about Conn Smythe, how he thought & operated, why he inserted "work horse Joe" in between 2 of the then top scoring forwards & stars in the league. Primeau was no defensive specialist of note; nor was he a terribly creative offensive center, and I certainly dont buy any guff that Jackson & Conacher needed a dray horse down the middle as a steadying influence.

?

Primeau was runner up for the Art Ross twice and led the league in assists three times. What do you mean he "wasn't creative?" Did you read that somewhere? I'm pretty sure you aren't old enough to see them play and footage from the era is limited. I have read that Primeau, while not as big a star as his wingers, was considered an integral part of that line.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Makes one wonder on the actual competitive level of the league where a guy can start skating at age 16 and have a HHOF career based on 7 NHL seasons.

I think the Hall got Conned on this induction into the Hall.

According to Joe Pelletier, Primeau was 13 when he started skating. Pretty late, but a big difference from 16.

Primeau, along with Frank Boucher, basically set the modern standard for how a center should play. And you think he shouldn't be in the HHOF? LOL.

 

[Killion]

According to Joe Pelletier, Primeau was 13 when he started skating. Pretty late, but a big difference from 16. Primeau, along with Frank Boucher, basically set the modern standard for how a center should play. And you think he shouldn't be in the HHOF? LOL.

Oh here we go, this is gonna be fun..... Now that truly is hilarious and ya, Id take you up on that over the top piece of hyperbolic tripe TDMM, anytime, anywhere.

Joe Primeau was born in Lindsay Ontario, spent part of his early life in Victoria, moved back east to Toronto, where he began skating at 13 & started playing organized hockey at 16 for St. Mikes (before the Leafs even existed) in a 4 team prep school league that included Upper Canada College, St. Andrews and University of Toronto Schools. Frank Selke, then with the Toronto Ravinas' spotted Joe & eventually brought him to the attention of Conn Smythe who was building the Rangers.

Does Joe Primeau belong in the HHOF as a player?. Debatable, and again we have the "Toronto Factor", his connections to Smythe (and Conns' influence with the HHOF from creation to construction to administration) and for what he did after he'd retired as a player. Joe Primeau coached both the Senior & Junior Marlies to both Allan & Memorial Cup victories; the Leafs to a Stanley Cup. Connected to Conn Smythe at the hip. Of course he was rewarded with a HHOF induction.

Now, are you prepared to argue that Gentleman Joe Primeau was a "Top Defensive Center" from 1910-1967?. You or anyone else?. Bring it on. If not, why is he being discussed here on this thread to the nth degree?.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Oh here we go, this is gonna be fun..... Now that truly is hilarious and ya, Id take you up on that over the top piece of hyperbolic tripe TDMM, anytime, anywhere.

Which of the following facts do you dispute?

1) In the modern game of hockey, the center is usually the playmaker of his line and has more defensive responsibilities than his wingers.

2) After the forward pass was allowed, the roles of the various positions on the ice changed and the role of the center became what we know of it today. Joe Primeau and Frank Boucher were the two guys most important to the early development of the modern center ice position.

Does Joe Primeau belong in the HHOF as a player?. Debatable, and again we have the "Toronto Factor", his connections to Smythe (and Conns' influence with the HHOF from creation to construction to administration) and for what he did after he'd retired as a player. Joe Primeau coached both the Senior & Junior Marlies to both Allan & Memorial Cup victories; the Leafs to a Stanley Cup. Connected to Conn Smythe at the hip. Of course he was rewarded with a HHOF induction.

Considering his importance to the development of the game of hockey, Joe Primeau in the HHOF is an absolute no-brainer. Finishing runner up for the Art Ross twice and leading the league in assists 3 times, while playing a strong defensive game helps too.

Now, are you prepared to argue that Gentleman Joe Primeau was a "Top Defensive Center" from 1910-1967?. You or anyone else?. Bring it on. If not, why is he being discussed here on this thread to the nth degree?.

Joe Pelletier:

"Not unlike Doug Gilmour years later, the slippery Primeau masterfully set up his two line mates time and time again, as well as acting as the line’s defensive conscience. He was as good a defensive center and penalty killer as there was in his day."

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Primeau was acquired by Smythe 1st thing, assigned to the Toronto Ravinas', a semi-pro squad that played at the Senior level. After 2yrs of "grooming", he was put on the Leafs top-line in between the tea-totaling Holier than Thou Charlie Conacher, another one of Smythes Hero's, and the womanizing, alcoholic reprobate Harvey "Busher" Jackson, Conny no doubt hoping Conachers' & Primeaus' Piety would somehow rub off on his wayward charge. The Kid Line. Meanwhile, that'd show the idiots in Manhattan just how "dumb" Smythe really wasnt in demanding a contract for Primeau.

1. The Ravinas were not a semi-pro squad, they played in the Canadian Professional Hockey League. That was a pro league.

2. When Primeau came into the league, Jackson and Conacher were not star forwards. In fact, Primeau played 8 games over two seasons before becoming a regular in 1929/30. 1929/30 was the rookie season of the entire Kid Line - neither Conacher nor Jackson had played a single NHL game before then.

3. The Kid Line was not the top line immediately. In 1929/30, the Leafs two top scorers were Ace Bailey and Baldy Cotton. Presumably Andy Blair was the third member of that line, probably splitting time with Eric Pettinger. The Kid Line did not clearly distance themselves as the first line until 1931/32.

Looking a little more carefully, it seems that Primeau did not play with Conacher and Jackson until midway through their first season.

 

[Killion]

Joe Pelletier:

"Not unlike Doug Gilmour years later, the slippery Primeau masterfully set up his two line mates time and time again, as well as acting as the line’s defensive conscience. He was as good a defensive center and penalty killer as there was in his day."

Ya, ya see TDMM, I dont put the same import/weight on Primeau or Boucher's contributions to the position of Center through the transition as most; removing the Rover created a situation whereby the Center would simply have to be more responsible defensively however, allowing the forward pass still kept the scales weighted toward offence for Centermen. I dont have a problem with Joe Pelletier's comparison to Gilmour in putting Primeaus career & contributions in context, I do however have a problem with the suggestion that he was the prototype of the defensive center specialist. Sure he was "amongst the best defensive centers & penalty killers of his day", however, the league was riddled with them at that time, yet none were exceptionally adroit playing both ends of the rink. Fair-Good sure. Not great. Perhaps Im putting too much emphasis on specialist.; splitting hairs..... still, I stand by that perspective.

 

[Hardyvan123]

According to Joe Pelletier, Primeau was 13 when he started skating. Pretty late, but a big difference from 16.

Primeau, along with Frank Boucher, basically set the modern standard for how a center should play. And you think he shouldn't be in the HHOF? LOL.

Hey we aren't talking about a Bobby Orr type of 7 years here and he had one year as a 2nd team all star at center.

I know Morenz had his great 3 year run then too but how about the other 4 years and only 1 cup to boot as well?

We are not talking about a guy whose career got interrupted by WW2 or anything either.

As far as media reports, they need to be taken with a grain of salt because they simply are not done with the same level of objectivity today and a guy like Conn Smythe definitely would have the media tow the line.

The starting skating at 16 was something from Killon which he rephrased to skating at 13 and organized hockey at 16 but the point still stands his 7 year track record in a 8-10 team league (with some players playing amateur or for small town teams as NHL players still didn't outpace the general population in salary like they did alter on.

I bet some crazed Leaf fans have no problem with his induction but have to wait and see on Sid or AO.

 

[Killion]

1. The Ravinas were not a semi-pro squad, they played in the Canadian Professional Hockey League. That was a pro league....
Looking a little more carefully, it seems that Primeau did not play with Conacher and Jackson until midway through their first season.

Good research there Iain. My understanding of the CPHL was that it was "semi-pro", as in the players were paid very little & had to work full or part time day jobs in order to survive; Id call that "semi-pro". Primeau also played (28-29) in the Can-Pro League (any idea what that is?) for the London Panthers. Just when he was put together with Jackson & Conacher I havent a clue; be it in training camp, start or mid-season, and whether it was Smythe or Selke who suggested it.....

Good grief, we could just go on & on & on.....

 

[Canadiens1958]

1929-30 Onward Defensive Skills

When looking at defensive skills from 1929-30 onwards consider that face-off procedures, alignments and tactics were very different. Also that the icing rule was introduced in March 1939, so defense in tight games consisted of legally icing the puck and containing the opposition deep in their zone.

Re Pro / Semi Pro. Criteria would include teams and players being Allan Cup and Olympic eligible.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ya, ya see TDMM, I dont put the same import/weight on Primeau or Boucher's contributions to the position of Center through the transition as most; removing the Rover created a situation whereby the Center would simply have to be more responsible defensively however, allowing the forward pass still kept the scales weighted toward offence for Centermen. I dont have a problem with Joe Pelletier's comparison to Gilmour in putting Primeaus career & contributions in context, I do however have a problem with the suggestion that he was the prototype of the defensive center specialist. Sure he was "amongst the best defensive centers & penalty killers of his day", however, the league was riddled with them at that time, yet none were exceptionally adroit playing both ends of the rink. Fair-Good sure. Not great. Perhaps Im putting too much emphasis on specialist.; splitting hairs..... still, I stand by that perspective.

I would have a problem if anyone called Primeau a defensive "specialist" too. Who called him that?

I'm also not sure how the league could be "riddled" with "among the best" at anything, but ok.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hey we aren't talking about a Bobby Orr type of 7 years here and he had one year as a 2nd team all star at center.

So Bobby Orr is the standard for Hall of Famers now? I mean, the other extreme of a short career guy to get in is Cam Neely. Joe Primeau is somewhere in the middle of those two.

And the 2nd Team All Star thing is largely because competition at center in the early 30s was really strong.

As far as media reports, they need to be taken with a grain of salt because they simply are not done with the same level of objectivity today and a guy like Conn Smythe definitely would have the media tow the line.

I have read media reports on players from before World War 2. They are quite open to criticizing players.

The starting skating at 16 was something from Killon which he rephrased to skating at 13 and organized hockey at 16 but the point still stands his 7 year track record in a 8-10 team league (with some players playing amateur or for small town teams as NHL players still didn't outpace the general population in salary like they did alter on.

By the time Primeau played, the best players were all in the NHL.

I bet some crazed Leaf fans have no problem with his induction but have to wait and see on Sid or AO.

What do crazed Leafs fans and Sid and AO have to do with anything? Joe Primeau is arguably in the top half of HHOFers...

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Good research there Iain. My understanding of the CPHL was that it was "semi-pro", as in the players were paid very little & had to work full or part time day jobs in order to survive; Id call that "semi-pro".

Sounds like the NHL in the 1950s...