LD Rasmus Sandin - Rogle BK, SHL (2018, 29th, TOR)

[TheBeastCoast]

If there was absolutely no risk in that and it is an entirely normal thing for a team to do, why did the organization say over the last year that it was the kind of thing they were not going to do?

What did they say they weren't going to do? I am totally confused as to what your big problem with Sandin getting what 6 games in? Irreversible damage done without doubt!

 

[P10p]

Does his elca slide because of this or is he pro so the clock is ticking regardless?

 

[biotk]

What did they say they weren't going to do? I am totally confused as to what your big problem with Sandin getting what 6 games in? Irreversible damage done without doubt!

The team has said that they were not going to play their top prospects in the NHL until they were ready to stick permanently - that is why they acquired a lot of depth who could play those 3rd pairing and injury replacement roles. They said that they didn't want to their top prospects going up and down because it was not good for development - like was the case with Liljegren between the SHL and superelit. What they have done with Sandin this season is exactly what Dubas claimed the organization would not be doing.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

What did they say they weren't going to do? I am totally confused as to what your big problem with Sandin getting what 6 games in? Irreversible damage done without doubt!

Yep, big damage. He's played six games as a Leaf. Marlies have played three games. Leafs play Washington and Bruins this week. That will be a big test. If Leafs management think he's in the top six and better than the seventh guy...he has to stay.

 

[P10p]

Elc slide or year burned?

 

[TheBeastCoast]

The team has said that they were not going to play their top prospects in the NHL until they were ready to stick permanently - that is why they acquired a lot of depth who could play those 3rd pairing and injury replacement roles. They said that they didn't want to their top prospects going up and down because it was not good for development - like was the case with Liljegren between the SHL and superelit. What they have done with Sandin this season is exactly what Dubas claimed the organization would not be doing.

You do realize that being sent down once doesn't constitute "being sent up and down" right? I mean this is pretty straight forward and logical....He played well enough to make the team out of camp, so he made the team. They found that he wasn't getting enough time in so they sent him back down to develop....and your issue is what? Some people will literally find a reason to complain about everything lol

 

[bossram]

Elc slide or year burned?

Has to play 10 games to burn an ELC year.

 

[biotk]

You do realize that being sent down once doesn't constitute "being sent up and down" right? I mean this is pretty straight forward and logical....He played well enough to make the team out of camp, so he made the team. They found that he wasn't getting enough time in so they sent him back down to develop....and your issue is what? Some people will literally find a reason to complain about everything lol

Sandin did go up and now 2 weeks later he is going back down. Exactly what Dubas said earlier this year that the team was going to avoid doing with either Sandin or Liljegren. (but incidentally - exactly what I said - back on March 16 on this forum - they were going to do with Sandin - he would make the team, but would be sent down before hitting 10 games because Babcock would not play him enough).

You do realize that when the team said they didn't want their top prospects playing in the NHL until they are ready to stick that means the opposite of what they just did here.
You do realize that when Dubas signed a bunch of depth D this summer he said it was to avoid this very thing (Sandin or Liljegren playing in the NHL before they were ready to permanently stick).
You do realize that his very first game it was abundantly clear that he was not going to get close to enough ice time to justify keeping him on the roster - in fact it was abundantly clear before he even set foot on the ice which didn't happen until more than 11 minutes into his first game.
You do realize that Babcock (and the rest of the organization) clearly knew before the season started that he was not going to get the kind of ice time or deployment (PP/PK) that Babcock has stated is necessary for his development.

Of course, you are not just arguing with me, you are arguing with the Leafs' organization which has said that they had progressed past this kind of way of developing players.

 

[ponder]

I thought he was looking like a solid 6D, but don’t think Babs trusts him just yet - he was getting very light minutes. If Babs isn’t gonna play him much, letting him get big minutes in the AHL is a no-brainer. He’s only 19 after all, there’s no rush. He’ll either make the team again later this year, or next year, he’s clearly extremely close.

 

[hector morrison]

I thought he was looking like a solid 6D, but don’t think Babs trusts him just yet - he was getting very light minutes. If Babs isn’t gonna play him much, letting him get big minutes in the AHL is a no-brainer. He’s only 19 after all, there’s no rush. He’ll either make the team again later this year, or next year, he’s clearly extremely close.

I really thought he would stay,he was getting more minutes than his partner,so i thought Babs was trusting him more.

If the call-up is Gravel,then that means they 're lookin' for someone to clear the crease/stay home and take care of business...I like that. I thought Gravel should of made the team.

 

[Orfieus]

I really thought he would stay,he was getting more minutes than his partner,so i thought Babs was trusting him more.

If the call-up is Gravel,then that means they 're lookin' for someone to clear the crease/stay home and take care of business...I like that. I thought Gravel should of made the team.

Babcock is purposely choosing size over skill. If I had known the key to playing for the Leafs was being over 6'2" I would have tried harder when I was playing hockey

 

[hector morrison]

Babcock is purposely choosing size over skill. If I had known the key to playing for the Leafs was being over 6'2" I would have tried harder when I was playing hockey

There really is more to it than that...but you know that!

 

[tucker3434]

Whether Babcock deserves to be ripped for this depends on what actually happened here (something we will likely never know).



Babcock being the coach of the team and the person who best understands who is going to play under what circumstances should have known before the season started that there was no room for Sandin on the PP or PK, and that he would be getting a max of 14 minutes a night (on a good night). That situation should have also been known by every fan who understands Babcock by the end of the first period of the season opener. That kind of deployment was and is terrible for development - something Babcock appears to also know.

So why did Sandin start the season on the Leafs? Why did the GM not send him down at the start, or after game 1 (or after realizing the mistake in not sending him down after game 1, after game 2 etc). Was this simply incompetence from the GM? And if the GM was being incompetent in not sending him down and Babcock knew this was bad for his development why did Babcock not force the GMs hand by scratching Sandin?

Or was this a situation - as we have seen from Babcock over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again when it comes to young players - that Babcock repeatedly told the GM that he was going to give Sandin the kind of deployment that would be ok for his continued development, but once the puck was dropped each game Babcock reverted to his well known style of absolutely not trusting young players.

It was 6 games. It’s not like it’s December. They were giving him a chance. Lots of guys around the league have gotten similar treatment this year.

 

[biotk]

It was 6 games. It’s not like it’s December. They were giving him a chance. Lots of guys around the league have gotten similar treatment this year.

They were not giving him a chance. In not one of the six games did his ice time get into the range it would have to be in to justify having him up. And that is not because of his play either. In the first game he didn't step on the ice for the first 11+ minutes. I don't really care about what other teams do. What happened here went against the Leafs' long stated development strategy, and Dubas signed lots of depth D this summer so that there would be no pressure to use a high end D prospect in what is clearly a depth role. I am not surprised by what happened. I said it was going to happen this fall back in March. But it shouldn't have.


Dubas: "I think that for us, it runs two-fold. We don't want our players going up to the Leafs before they're ready, and we don't want them shuttling up and down. We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time. (This is exactly what they didn't do with Sandin)

We don't want players going up and then coming down. We saw last year with Stuart Percy and Sam Carrick, they go up, and they come back down, and it really rattles the players' confidence. Even though it's a joyful experience to play your first NHL game, to make the team and get recalled, it gets your psyche out of order a little bit. (and this is why they know they shouldn't do what they just did with Sandin)

And I think that's on us, it's not on the players. We have to be the ones making sure we're doing what's right by the players." (and this is whose fault it is)

 

[Pyrophorus]

I meant it more collectively. Leafs fans have been ripping him apart recently and at least some of it is undeserved (like this time). I haven’t been following you specifically.

Babcock's Waterloo, will be if the team continues to be .500 on Jan 1, 2020

 

[Mickey Marner]

Whether Babcock deserves to be ripped for this depends on what actually happened here (something we will likely never know).



Babcock being the coach of the team and the person who best understands who is going to play under what circumstances should have known before the season started that there was no room for Sandin on the PP or PK, and that he would be getting a max of 14 minutes a night (on a good night). That situation should have also been known by every fan who understands Babcock by the end of the first period of the season opener. That kind of deployment was and is terrible for development - something Babcock appears to also know.

So why did Sandin start the season on the Leafs? Why did the GM not send him down at the start, or after game 1 (or after realizing the mistake in not sending him down after game 1, after game 2 etc). Was this simply incompetence from the GM? And if the GM was being incompetent in not sending him down and Babcock knew this was bad for his development why did Babcock not force the GMs hand by scratching Sandin?

Or was this a situation - as we have seen from Babcock over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again when it comes to young players - that Babcock repeatedly told the GM that he was going to give Sandin the kind of deployment that would be ok for his continued development, but once the puck was dropped each game Babcock reverted to his well known style of absolutely not trusting young players.

If nothing else, he got a taste of the NHL and $57,688 for less than two weeks worth of worth. He'll only make about $65,000 for the rest of the year in the AHL. Seems like a decent reward/incentive.

 

[Orfieus]

If nothing else, he got a taste of the NHL and $57,688 for less than two weeks worth of worth. He'll only make about $65,000 for the rest of the year in the AHL. Seems like a decent reward/incentive.

Honestly I think that was a MASSIVE motivator for Robertson. When he signed his ELC he also got a signing bonus (not really sure how much but it has to be a pretty penny) and it has given him a taste of what's to come

I think Sandin is NHL ready now but sending him to the AHL isn't a big deal. I think I would be WAY more upset if Sandin was forced to play in the CHL TBH

 

[Leafs1991]

Sandin did go up and now 2 weeks later he is going back down. Exactly what Dubas said earlier this year that the team was going to avoid doing with either Sandin or Liljegren. (but incidentally - exactly what I said - back on March 16 on this forum - they were going to do with Sandin - he would make the team, but would be sent down before hitting 10 games because Babcock would not play him enough).

You do realize that when the team said they didn't want their top prospects playing in the NHL until they are ready to stick that means the opposite of what they just did here.
You do realize that when Dubas signed a bunch of depth D this summer he said it was to avoid this very thing (Sandin or Liljegren playing in the NHL before they were ready to permanently stick).
You do realize that his very first game it was abundantly clear that he was not going to get close to enough ice time to justify keeping him on the roster - in fact it was abundantly clear before he even set foot on the ice which didn't happen until more than 11 minutes into his first game.
You do realize that Babcock (and the rest of the organization) clearly knew before the season started that he was not going to get the kind of ice time or deployment (PP/PK) that Babcock has stated is necessary for his development.

Of course, you are not just arguing with me, you are arguing with the Leafs' organization which has said that they had progressed past this kind of way of developing players.

Who cares that it was said?

 

[biotk]

Who cares that it was said?

Who cares that the Leafs have outlined that there are beneficial ways of developing prospects and other ways that are harmful to developing prospects, and yet what they have specifically done here is exactly what they said they were going to avoid doing because they consider it harmful? You would think that Leafs' fans would care. But apparently Leafs fans are more interested in simply being brainless cheerleaders.

 

[Fogelhund]

Who cares that the Leafs have outlined that there are beneficial ways of developing prospects and other ways that are harmful to developing prospects, and yet what they have specifically done here is exactly what they said they were going to avoid doing because they consider it harmful? You would think that Leafs' fans would care. But apparently Leafs fans are more interested in simply being brainless cheerleaders.

Could you please link to what Dubas/Leafs said about this? Thanks

 

[biotk]

Could you please link to what Dubas/Leafs said about this? Thanks

See post #689 (one of several quotes about their development strategy)

 

[Fogelhund]

They were not giving him a chance. In not one of the six games did his ice time get into the range it would have to be in to justify having him up. And that is not because of his play either. In the first game he didn't step on the ice for the first 11+ minutes. I don't really care about what other teams do. What happened here went against the Leafs' long stated development strategy, and Dubas signed lots of depth D this summer so that there would be no pressure to use a high end D prospect in what is clearly a depth role. I am not surprised by what happened. I said it was going to happen this fall back in March. But it shouldn't have.


Dubas: "I think that for us, it runs two-fold. We don't want our players going up to the Leafs before they're ready, and we don't want them shuttling up and down. We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time. (This is exactly what they didn't do with Sandin)

We don't want players going up and then coming down. We saw last year with Stuart Percy and Sam Carrick, they go up, and they come back down, and it really rattles the players' confidence. Even though it's a joyful experience to play your first NHL game, to make the team and get recalled, it gets your psyche out of order a little bit. (and this is why they know they shouldn't do what they just did with Sandin)

And I think that's on us, it's not on the players. We have to be the ones making sure we're doing what's right by the players." (and this is whose fault it is)

So, a quote from 2015, about shuttling players up and down is the basis for your posting?

Both Carrick and Percy were up and down three times. That isn't exactly what they've done with Sandin.

 

[inthe6ix]

He and Lilly will be playing big minutes for us next season.

For once, I agree with Babs - no reason to rush him.

 

[biotk]

So, a quote from 2015, about shuttling players up and down is the basis for your posting?

Both Carrick and Percy were up and down three times. That isn't exactly what they've done with Sandin.

What the f*** does this say: "We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time."

 

[Fogelhund]

What the **** does this say: "We want players to be called up to the Leafs when they're young and on the first two years of their entry-level contracts ONLY when they prove that they can be a Leaf, all the time."

Take one sentence out of what is said, remove context, and use it to have a different meaning than intended... that's is what it says.

They don't want to bounce players up and down... that was the intent.